What Are The R.A.F. Regiment For?
Thank you
To ALL the Rocks out there:
Thank you for the training you have given us
Thank you for watching over us in dark and dangerous places
Where ever you are in the world, Keep Safe
Thank you for the training you have given us
Thank you for watching over us in dark and dangerous places
Where ever you are in the world, Keep Safe
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Thank You All
Good evening all,
I must apologise for not having responded sooner. I feel I must also apologise for the can of worms I seem to have opened. I honestly did not intend to start a discussion that has such strength of conviction from so many. I am genuinely interested in what role the R.A.F. Regiment might have in this day and age.
I would like to thank those of you who have answered some of my questions. I would also like to thank all who have replied. It is always interesting to hear a number of points whether one agrees with them or not.
hval.
I must apologise for not having responded sooner. I feel I must also apologise for the can of worms I seem to have opened. I honestly did not intend to start a discussion that has such strength of conviction from so many. I am genuinely interested in what role the R.A.F. Regiment might have in this day and age.
I would like to thank those of you who have answered some of my questions. I would also like to thank all who have replied. It is always interesting to hear a number of points whether one agrees with them or not.
hval.
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Had a couple of mates join the Rocks, one as an Hofficer the other a gunner.
For both of them it was a conscious choice, they could have gone into other trades.
My Gunner pal was mad keen to join 2 sqn and worked hard to make the grade and get through the selection course. All the way through he showed utter contempt for the rest of the RAF !
Once on Squadron he settled down and took a more realistic view of life and refelected that some of his colleagues were a$ES, he had a job to do and that was defending airfields. This took on more importance in the late 80s when the IRA stepped up its operations in the UK. Suddenly he was training all ranks and guarding bases across the UK, (this scenario may repeat itself but not with a threat from the Irish community).
Sadly he passed away at a young age due to illness but loved the Rocks first and RAF as an afterthought.
This doesn't detract in any way from the other services deployed but only to serve as an example of the type of individuals that join the Rocks.
Thoughts and wished for a peaceful & safe Xmas and New Year wherever deployed.
For both of them it was a conscious choice, they could have gone into other trades.
My Gunner pal was mad keen to join 2 sqn and worked hard to make the grade and get through the selection course. All the way through he showed utter contempt for the rest of the RAF !
Once on Squadron he settled down and took a more realistic view of life and refelected that some of his colleagues were a$ES, he had a job to do and that was defending airfields. This took on more importance in the late 80s when the IRA stepped up its operations in the UK. Suddenly he was training all ranks and guarding bases across the UK, (this scenario may repeat itself but not with a threat from the Irish community).
Sadly he passed away at a young age due to illness but loved the Rocks first and RAF as an afterthought.
This doesn't detract in any way from the other services deployed but only to serve as an example of the type of individuals that join the Rocks.
Thoughts and wished for a peaceful & safe Xmas and New Year wherever deployed.
Do the Rock Apes port MP5 and do CSAR?
Quickie 
Do the Rcok Apes port exotic hardware such as MP-5/7 and can carry out CSAR tasks like the USAF PJs and even assist in hostage rescue?
Do the Rcok Apes port exotic hardware such as MP-5/7 and can carry out CSAR tasks like the USAF PJs and even assist in hostage rescue?
Do the Rcok Apes port exotic hardware such as MP-5/7 and can carry out CSAR tasks like the USAF PJs and even assist in hostage rescue?
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I believe I can bring a fairly unique perspective to this discussion. For those who cannot surmise from my nickname the "Airborne" comes from my time spent on II Sqn. RAF Regiment and the "Aircrew" comes from my time as an ALM on 33 Sqn.
Statements such as "brain dead" to describe Gunners are patently ignorant of the facts. When I went to the CIO I was told that I could have any trade I wanted. The look of shock on the chap's face was quite the picture when I said I wanted the Regiment. At Swinderby OC PSF(?) was equally surprised when, having spent the better part of an hour trying to sell me on the idea of a commission, I informed him that I had no desire to be an officer. Upon arrival at Catterick I found several Gunners who were equally well or, in some cases, better qualified academically than myself who had also chosen the same course.
That having been said, yes there are Gunners who are not "the sharpest knives in the drawer". But that's the same in any trade and I can assure you all that there were ALM's, AEOps, AEng's and, yes, Pilots who would have been easily shown up intellectually and academically, not to mention common sense wise, by Gunners I served with.
Yes, Gunners look down on the rest of you. Why? For much the same reason Percy despises you. Because I wish I had a pound for every tradesman I heard tell me that they only joined for a trade and never considered the possibility of going to war. That mindset is an anathema to a Gunner who, much like an infantryman, joined to "close with the enemy and kill him". Why do you think Gunners take such pleasure in gassing you and making your lives a misery? It's because, after all the crap they have to hear about being brain dead etc. they can gas you and watch a large proportion of you cry like girls about it. But you only got gassed annually, we were gassed monthly and had "respirator runs" that had us wear 35lbs of CEFO and a 9lb rifle while running 1 1/2 miles wearing a NBC suit and a respirator every Friday afternoon, rain or shine.
But then, from the other side, you'll find that the "greener" a tradesman is, (the more they operate from the field), the more they understand and appreciate the Rocks and, funnily enough, the more the Rocks respect them. Many here have thanked the Rocks for the training they have provided, and that will be appreciated I can assure you. For those that complain about it: You need to remember the Rocks are trying to prepare you for the most frightening, confusing and mind numbing experience you may ever face. It's an extremely difficult task because there is no exercise that even comes close to simulating the the reality... So the worst they can do is mess with you. Equate it if you will to your survival training. Your instructors didn't put you through the stress of an actual ejection or crash because they can't, so they dump you in the middle of nowhere and make you march up hill and down dale for the first day, (which is probably not what you would do right off the bat). The idea was to tire you and disorient you as best they could. They were just messing with you...
As to the question "Does the Regiment have a role?" Absolutely. The Army does not have the desire nor the skill sets required to properly defend something like an airfield. Could they acquire the skills? Of course, but there is an attitude issue that would mean the job would be being done reluctantly, ('cos they all hate the crabs who are really just a bunch of civvies in blue). The Gunner joins knowing what his role will be and he does it willingly and with pride.
Lastly, before any of you put any stead in the mental meanderings of MGD please remember he's only a Chinook crewman and is, therefore, basically a glorified "trolley dolly" who is only allowed in the cockpit to bring the butty boxes...
Statements such as "brain dead" to describe Gunners are patently ignorant of the facts. When I went to the CIO I was told that I could have any trade I wanted. The look of shock on the chap's face was quite the picture when I said I wanted the Regiment. At Swinderby OC PSF(?) was equally surprised when, having spent the better part of an hour trying to sell me on the idea of a commission, I informed him that I had no desire to be an officer. Upon arrival at Catterick I found several Gunners who were equally well or, in some cases, better qualified academically than myself who had also chosen the same course.
That having been said, yes there are Gunners who are not "the sharpest knives in the drawer". But that's the same in any trade and I can assure you all that there were ALM's, AEOps, AEng's and, yes, Pilots who would have been easily shown up intellectually and academically, not to mention common sense wise, by Gunners I served with.
Yes, Gunners look down on the rest of you. Why? For much the same reason Percy despises you. Because I wish I had a pound for every tradesman I heard tell me that they only joined for a trade and never considered the possibility of going to war. That mindset is an anathema to a Gunner who, much like an infantryman, joined to "close with the enemy and kill him". Why do you think Gunners take such pleasure in gassing you and making your lives a misery? It's because, after all the crap they have to hear about being brain dead etc. they can gas you and watch a large proportion of you cry like girls about it. But you only got gassed annually, we were gassed monthly and had "respirator runs" that had us wear 35lbs of CEFO and a 9lb rifle while running 1 1/2 miles wearing a NBC suit and a respirator every Friday afternoon, rain or shine.
But then, from the other side, you'll find that the "greener" a tradesman is, (the more they operate from the field), the more they understand and appreciate the Rocks and, funnily enough, the more the Rocks respect them. Many here have thanked the Rocks for the training they have provided, and that will be appreciated I can assure you. For those that complain about it: You need to remember the Rocks are trying to prepare you for the most frightening, confusing and mind numbing experience you may ever face. It's an extremely difficult task because there is no exercise that even comes close to simulating the the reality... So the worst they can do is mess with you. Equate it if you will to your survival training. Your instructors didn't put you through the stress of an actual ejection or crash because they can't, so they dump you in the middle of nowhere and make you march up hill and down dale for the first day, (which is probably not what you would do right off the bat). The idea was to tire you and disorient you as best they could. They were just messing with you...
As to the question "Does the Regiment have a role?" Absolutely. The Army does not have the desire nor the skill sets required to properly defend something like an airfield. Could they acquire the skills? Of course, but there is an attitude issue that would mean the job would be being done reluctantly, ('cos they all hate the crabs who are really just a bunch of civvies in blue). The Gunner joins knowing what his role will be and he does it willingly and with pride.
Lastly, before any of you put any stead in the mental meanderings of MGD please remember he's only a Chinook crewman and is, therefore, basically a glorified "trolley dolly" who is only allowed in the cockpit to bring the butty boxes...
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We had a SNCO Rock and family move in as neighbours to my wife's ancient parents, 15 miles away. What a blessing! Apart from cutting their grass and fixing things he evacuated them well before the fire engines arrived (1am one night), and was in action well before the medics arrived (midnight another night) when Ma in Law fell - fatally, as it sadly transpired.
I dropped his big boss a line which ended - My reason for writing is to ask if you could arrange for this letter to be attached to XX’s Personal File in order that his conduct ‘out of uniform’ won’t go unnoticed by the RAF.
Rocks? A1!
I dropped his big boss a line which ended - My reason for writing is to ask if you could arrange for this letter to be attached to XX’s Personal File in order that his conduct ‘out of uniform’ won’t go unnoticed by the RAF.
Rocks? A1!
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The question that is the title of this thread has occasionally crossed my mind, just out of curiosity. Why aren't they Army, because they look like 'em and run around with guns etc?!?
It's easily answered:
1. Peacetime. An irreplacable link at the Stn level between those in the more blunt occupations and the demands of the *ahem* sharper end of warfare. You could, in theory, have Army rotated through that role, but that would not be popular or successful - not guaranteed of getting posts filled, culture clash, lack of understanding. etc The operational demands faced by all personnel have increased enormously since the Cold War and RAF Regt fulfils an invaluable training role.
2. Wartime. Offensive and defensive ground operations in support of RAF operations, described in more detail by those who know far more than I do, based around safeguarding an operating base. A RAF detachment wouldn't *really* want to have a random Army rifle company foisted upon it.
There's all the banter as well, but respect tends to be mutually earned and a little bit of interest and respect for someone else's role ensures a happy relationship outside the Respirator Testing Facility.
Long may the RAF Regt continue. Not quite as famous as the Royal Marines, but a only few hundred more years to go. Per Ardua, indeed!
It's easily answered:
1. Peacetime. An irreplacable link at the Stn level between those in the more blunt occupations and the demands of the *ahem* sharper end of warfare. You could, in theory, have Army rotated through that role, but that would not be popular or successful - not guaranteed of getting posts filled, culture clash, lack of understanding. etc The operational demands faced by all personnel have increased enormously since the Cold War and RAF Regt fulfils an invaluable training role.
2. Wartime. Offensive and defensive ground operations in support of RAF operations, described in more detail by those who know far more than I do, based around safeguarding an operating base. A RAF detachment wouldn't *really* want to have a random Army rifle company foisted upon it.
There's all the banter as well, but respect tends to be mutually earned and a little bit of interest and respect for someone else's role ensures a happy relationship outside the Respirator Testing Facility.
Long may the RAF Regt continue. Not quite as famous as the Royal Marines, but a only few hundred more years to go. Per Ardua, indeed!
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What Have I Learned
Evening Burning Bush.
A good question. What have I learned.
1/ Rocks appear to be divisive.
2/ The tasks that the R.A.F. Regiment carry out does appear to have been upgraded, and not necessarily relevant to what they are supposed to do
3/ Tactics listed/ inferred appear to have improved through experience (unfortunately).
4/ Am shocked that R.A.F. Regt. no longer appear to provide defence to UK airfields
5/ It appears Rapier no longer is used. What is used instead?
6/ R.A.F. Regt. Officers and NCO's must now think up a level from previous years (from local to tactical).
7/ They still seem to be as brave as when I had the privilege to meet some of them on a number of occasions.
A good question. What have I learned.
1/ Rocks appear to be divisive.
2/ The tasks that the R.A.F. Regiment carry out does appear to have been upgraded, and not necessarily relevant to what they are supposed to do
3/ Tactics listed/ inferred appear to have improved through experience (unfortunately).
4/ Am shocked that R.A.F. Regt. no longer appear to provide defence to UK airfields
5/ It appears Rapier no longer is used. What is used instead?
6/ R.A.F. Regt. Officers and NCO's must now think up a level from previous years (from local to tactical).
7/ They still seem to be as brave as when I had the privilege to meet some of them on a number of occasions.
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But then, from the other side, you'll find that the "greener" a tradesman is, (the more they operate from the field), the more they understand and appreciate the Rocks and, funnily enough, the more the Rocks respect them. Many here have thanked the Rocks for the training they have provided, and that will be appreciated I can assure you.
As a ground tradesman I actually enjoyed any training I received from the Rocks and did appreciate their guidance; even the annual gassing etc. It was only done to sharpen-up our drills!
I would have liked to have had even more training from them; We should have been allowed to do much more firearms training than we did. I was only ever trained to fire the 7.62mm SLR, I would have loved to have trained to use a pistol or GPMG etc.
But then, I always thought I should be a soldier first and a specialised tradesman second!
Airborne Aircrew
Surprised it took you so long to join the discussion - too busy fighting the cause over on ARRSE!
Not that I am a soldier but I am sure there are many such individuals who cruise this (and that) board who would ask the question (which may be thread drift..) if
why did he join the Royal Air Force? With the main reason/task for the existence of the Regiment (certainly in the last 20 odd years) being defence of static, immobile Air Bases and its immediate surroundings (granted there is a small percentage that are now part of the SFSG [or whatever its latest name is]) aren't your gunners (of all educational levels) going to be VERY frustated at the task given (when they discover what it is
)? And how did all those posted to Rapier/SHORAD units reconcile with the lack of "closing with the enemy". Enemy closing on them perhaps ....
Don't get me wrong - I think the Regiment do a very good job of what is expected of them. You are also right to say that the Army and the RM would not want to cover your role if you were disbanded.
Not after a flaming session - this is more out of curiosity (and education!)
Surprised it took you so long to join the discussion - too busy fighting the cause over on ARRSE!
Not that I am a soldier but I am sure there are many such individuals who cruise this (and that) board who would ask the question (which may be thread drift..) if
... a Gunner who, much like an infantryman, joined to "close with the enemy and kill him"
)? And how did all those posted to Rapier/SHORAD units reconcile with the lack of "closing with the enemy". Enemy closing on them perhaps ....Don't get me wrong - I think the Regiment do a very good job of what is expected of them. You are also right to say that the Army and the RM would not want to cover your role if you were disbanded.
Not after a flaming session - this is more out of curiosity (and education!)
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"Surprised it took you so long to join the discussion - too busy fighting the cause over on ARRSE!"
Oh how sad it is when some, on entering civvy street just cant seem to let it go
Oh how sad it is when some, on entering civvy street just cant seem to let it go
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hval, it would appear you still have some learning to do in this area. And I say that in the nicest possible way.
Normally I would now attempt to take you a stage further in your quest for enlightenment, however, I fear this thread is now in danger of slipping into the usual (ARRSE type) profile for this subject.
PM if you like.
Off to the Pub in a bit.....I may post later
Normally I would now attempt to take you a stage further in your quest for enlightenment
, however, I fear this thread is now in danger of slipping into the usual (ARRSE type) profile for this subject.PM if you like.
Off to the Pub in a bit.....I may post later
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With the main reason/task for the existence of the Regiment (certainly in the last 20 odd years) being defence of static, immobile Air Bases and its immediate surroundings (granted there is a small percentage that are now part of the SFSG [or whatever its latest name is]) aren't your gunners (of all educational levels) going to be VERY frustated at the task given (when they discover what it is
)? And how did all those posted to Rapier/SHORAD units reconcile with the lack of "closing with the enemy". Enemy closing on them perhaps ....
)? And how did all those posted to Rapier/SHORAD units reconcile with the lack of "closing with the enemy". Enemy closing on them perhaps ....
Aggressive patrolling, (which is what Regiment field squadrons do), is quite specialized and more challenging that one might think. It's actually quite easy for a small force to infiltrate any given area so it takes a high level of skill from what is, after all, a very small force to locate the enemy. There is a lot of understanding of how an enemy works that allows Gunners to find said enemy. It's far from frustrating except when the enemy "wins".
Many who joined wanted to go to the SHORAD sqns and they often got their wish. Different kind of fighting, different kind of Gunner in many cases. I know that over on RockNet you'll find quite a clear distinction between the field Gunners and the Rapier Gunners and those field Gunners who were posted to Rapier pretty much unanimously did not like their time in SHORAD. Conversely, those Rapier Gunners who were posted to field Sqns. fairly universally seemed to dislike the experience. At that time the Regiment was somewhat divided between field/CVRT and Rapier.
I'm still a little uncertain as to why SHORAD was given to the RA and can only surmise that TPTB decided that in the currents climate the threat from LL attack by enemy fighters/bombers against airfields was slight so LLAD was no longer required. One questions the wisdom of removing the skill set for the short term threat without acceptance that sometime down the road the threat which they currently deem insignificant may again become serious...
Oh how sad it is when some, on entering civvy street just cant seem to let it go
Now, trot on back to harassing your subordinates which, the consensus indicates, is the one thing you are really good at...
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I don't seam to recall the RAF Regt having armour on Granby or being in the Vanguard. That was done by REAL soldiers. RLC went through the Berms in unarmoured trucks carrying supplies much closer to the front line than the regt ever was.
Have sat and listened to some of the regts Kn0bs going on about how they are on power with the RM's/Para's but when they walk into the usual trap about what their actual role is and which army units have a similar Job description it boils down to the Loggies Pioneer regiment (who are a dam sight more flexible being able to do light building work, drive MHE/Plant, run the mortuary etc etc etc)
Yes the army do see helecopters as a truck with a fan on top but thats what they are to most troops a way of moving from A-B or getting kit from A-B as long as they are available and arrive on time without much hassel troops are happy to let those tasked with looking after them do their Job. Why do troops have problems maybe training issues maybe by the time they're comming to use them they have an awful lot more things on their minds.
As to idea of CAS to merge AAC and FAA into the RAF has been tried before in 1920/30's and set naval avation back a decade. CAS should look at providing the Army and Navy with the support they need as opposed to empire building
Have sat and listened to some of the regts Kn0bs going on about how they are on power with the RM's/Para's but when they walk into the usual trap about what their actual role is and which army units have a similar Job description it boils down to the Loggies Pioneer regiment (who are a dam sight more flexible being able to do light building work, drive MHE/Plant, run the mortuary etc etc etc)
Yes the army do see helecopters as a truck with a fan on top but thats what they are to most troops a way of moving from A-B or getting kit from A-B as long as they are available and arrive on time without much hassel troops are happy to let those tasked with looking after them do their Job. Why do troops have problems maybe training issues maybe by the time they're comming to use them they have an awful lot more things on their minds.
As to idea of CAS to merge AAC and FAA into the RAF has been tried before in 1920/30's and set naval avation back a decade. CAS should look at providing the Army and Navy with the support they need as opposed to empire building
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I don't seam to recall the RAF Regt having armour on Granby or being in the Vanguard. That was done by REAL soldiers. RLC went through the Berms in unarmoured trucks carrying supplies much closer to the front line than the regt ever was.
Have sat and listened to some of the regts Kn0bs going on about how they are on power with the RM's/Para's but when they walk into the usual trap about what their actual role is and which army units have a similar Job description it boils down to the Loggies Pioneer regiment (who are a dam sight more flexible being able to do light building work, drive MHE/Plant, run the mortuary etc etc etc)
Have sat and listened to some of the regts Kn0bs going on about how they are on power with the RM's/Para's but when they walk into the usual trap about what their actual role is and which army units have a similar Job description it boils down to the Loggies Pioneer regiment (who are a dam sight more flexible being able to do light building work, drive MHE/Plant, run the mortuary etc etc etc)
Your history/memory needs a bit of an upgrade -
1 Sqn RAF Regt did have Armour (CVRT), Scorpions and Spartans on Op Granby. As they crossed into Iraq with 1(BR) Arm Div as the forward reconnaissance screen for the Division, that would put them closer to the front than your so called British Army's REAL soldiers!
Never forget the British Army did have the job of Airfield Defense prior to the RAF Regt having it. But alas the British Army made such a c0ck up of it, the Regt was formed.
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RLC went through the Berms in unarmoured trucks carrying supplies much closer to the front line than the regt ever was.
Must be a first - ex-mover defending the Regt!