Public Sector Pensions Overpaid
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does it rhyme with 'rowlocks' by any chance?
(I'm good at quizzes <g>)
Stay safe, try not to spend the huge sums the government hands out on frivolous items old chap...a fellow only needs SO MUCH moustache wax, for example, any more is simple profligacy, whilst a single top hat should suffice for any occasion.
Vin Rouge - I see your problem, you are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
(Nobody can object to be screwed up front, it is being screwed in retrospect that we object to)
(I'm good at quizzes <g>)
Stay safe, try not to spend the huge sums the government hands out on frivolous items old chap...a fellow only needs SO MUCH moustache wax, for example, any more is simple profligacy, whilst a single top hat should suffice for any occasion.
Vin Rouge - I see your problem, you are looking through the wrong end of the telescope.
(Nobody can object to be screwed up front, it is being screwed in retrospect that we object to)
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,583
Received 441 Likes
on
233 Posts
Vin Rouge? 8 years aircrew already? Oh, well done, one day you too might be entitled to a pension but try to bear in mind that some of us here left the service while you were still a twinkle in your old man's eye and things were very different. Left before JPA? You're having a laugh. The RAF had just one classified computer, kept in Station Ops and we had no access. I used to get paid by cheque into my Cox's and Kings account. I think it was £75 a month to begin with. One month they ran out of money and we didn't get paid because they "forgot". Trying to get an assessment of personal pension entitlement out of the Paymaster was like trying to get blood out of a stone. We had no way of working it out for ourselves.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies & Gentlemen...
Presenting the IQ20 award for the most gibberish in an internet post two thousand and eight...
Stand back, we have a winner!
Presenting the IQ20 award for the most gibberish in an internet post two thousand and eight...
Stand back, we have a winner!
Vin Rouge are you seriously saying that the private sector is propping up the state sector? If so you are talking complete @rse. Where have you been for the past 20 years? We have had nothing but the private sector sponging off the taxpayer. Privitisations, PFIs, Government 'Projects' and on top of that £300 Billion (at least) to bail out the banks and stock markets. I also find it ironic that the majority of government problems in defence, education and finance are as a result of contracting out to 3rd party private companies (which the CBI encouraged).
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The Old Fat One
I'm having a little difficulty with your & VR's positions - but then I do so with an increasing number of things these days. I thunk I know what you mean, but you'll have to adopt the CSOTM approach I'm afraid.
I'm having a little difficulty with your & VR's positions - but then I do so with an increasing number of things these days. I thunk I know what you mean, but you'll have to adopt the CSOTM approach I'm afraid.
Davejb,
I understood that Flying Pay was in fact an allowance and thus not a consolidated part of your pay, hence not calculable for pension purposes. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
and: -
Vin Rouge, I suggest you know little of which you dribble on about. The council I now work for is in the top quartile of the country, so by definition not inneficient. I also get paid less than the the private sector people doing similar work. My pension is not solid gold or even copper bottomed, in fact we have all just been the victim of "pay more, get less" adjustments to the entitlements. It's also pays less of a percentage for the years served than my service pension does, around 27% for 22 years as opposed to 33% for the RAF pension.
As for the civil service, I used to be one of those wasters who are merely keeping the unemployed numbers down. By and large they are dedicated people who are grossly underpaid and grossly overworked, well at least in the Pension Service they were.
As I said in an earlier post, please wind your collective necks in over public sector pay and conditions that you all know so much about, lest I bring up the free rent, free coal, free electricity and gas that everyone in the Forces gets. And THAT is as accurate as most of the posts re public sector workers.
Doc C.
ps I'm just as fiercly protective of the Armed Forces when people spout rot too!
I understood that Flying Pay was in fact an allowance and thus not a consolidated part of your pay, hence not calculable for pension purposes. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
and: -
Vin Rouge, I suggest you know little of which you dribble on about. The council I now work for is in the top quartile of the country, so by definition not inneficient. I also get paid less than the the private sector people doing similar work. My pension is not solid gold or even copper bottomed, in fact we have all just been the victim of "pay more, get less" adjustments to the entitlements. It's also pays less of a percentage for the years served than my service pension does, around 27% for 22 years as opposed to 33% for the RAF pension.
As for the civil service, I used to be one of those wasters who are merely keeping the unemployed numbers down. By and large they are dedicated people who are grossly underpaid and grossly overworked, well at least in the Pension Service they were.
As I said in an earlier post, please wind your collective necks in over public sector pay and conditions that you all know so much about, lest I bring up the free rent, free coal, free electricity and gas that everyone in the Forces gets. And THAT is as accurate as most of the posts re public sector workers.
Doc C.
ps I'm just as fiercly protective of the Armed Forces when people spout rot too!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: lincs
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
?Statement?
Had my head down over the last 2 days - did anyone see a statement from HMG with any more details than in the original trailer?
RgdsOB96
(And best wishes to all for a Happy New Year!).
RgdsOB96
(And best wishes to all for a Happy New Year!).
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll freely admit that foresight with regard to these matters is not something I'm claiming but I'm very happy to have made the decision to leave the RAF before pensions etc. became an issue and even happier to have left the country at the same time...
Vin, you might want to consider my solution...
Vin, you might want to consider my solution...
Guest
Posts: n/a
So what does this mean for a few of us that have a few years left to serve to get the 22 , will or can they change the pension. I am not an expert in this field so some constructive answer might help a litle bit relive my worry. Ive only stayed in the last few years because it would be silly to throw away a 22 year pension.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I can see from the letter I got yesterday from those nice people at Xaffinity Paymaster who think they may have inadvertently given me too many of the Queen's shillings, any adjustment required will be tiny. It might be bigger for those who are older and have been in receipt of pension for longer.
It seems that the error is in the annual pension increases due to the way increases were applied to the Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP). Due to an admin cock-up both State pension and Service pension were paying the same increase.
So it was not much help knowing what pension one was entitled to on retirement because the errors are in the annual increases awarded.
More startling is the revelation that those errors and the overpayments are to continue until April - very generous, thankyou Xaffinity - Happy Christmas!
It seems that the error is in the annual pension increases due to the way increases were applied to the Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP). Due to an admin cock-up both State pension and Service pension were paying the same increase.
So it was not much help knowing what pension one was entitled to on retirement because the errors are in the annual increases awarded.
More startling is the revelation that those errors and the overpayments are to continue until April - very generous, thankyou Xaffinity - Happy Christmas!
The council I now work for
Bye then.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wilts
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ladies & Gentlemen...
Presenting the IQ20 award for the most gibberish in an internet post two thousand and eight...
Stand back, we have a winner!
Presenting the IQ20 award for the most gibberish in an internet post two thousand and eight...
Stand back, we have a winner!
This casual approach to taxpayers' money has blossomed since the fad for privatising public administration began in the early 90s. It is now embedded in Whitehall's DNA. Like the salaries paid to "public servants" such as Boston or the heads of the BBC, such expenditure defies reason. It reflects the transfer of William Whyte's "organisation man" from private corporate to public sectors, except that the associated perks are underwritten by the taxpayer.
BTW thanks for the award, and if its underwritten by a PFI, when in 2010 can I pick it up?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Out East
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2008 AFPS Newsletter
I retired in 1998 after 37 years service, man and boy. The Newsletter has quite a bit on the possibility of overpayment re the Graduated Minimum Pension (GMP). Soddim mentions it above. I gather that those liable to be affected are those in receipt of the GMP, possibly those retiring after only the minimum pensionable engagement or many years ago? Don't know but will be checking the post for any unwelcome letters.
A Merry Christmas to all our readers!
Pip pip
ON
A Merry Christmas to all our readers!
Pip pip
ON
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Annes
Age: 68
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doc Cruces,
yes, despite being a fairly noticeable part of what I was paid and taxed on each month it is indeed officially an allowance. Oddly enough the recruiting adverts in the papers as I joined didn't stress that part of the £80 odd a week* I'd be paid as NCO aircrew would be in the form of an allowance that would not count as pay for pension purposes.
Dave
*If I remember right it the figure in the adverts was £84 a week. This seemed pretty good in the 70's, it's gone up rather since then mind.
yes, despite being a fairly noticeable part of what I was paid and taxed on each month it is indeed officially an allowance. Oddly enough the recruiting adverts in the papers as I joined didn't stress that part of the £80 odd a week* I'd be paid as NCO aircrew would be in the form of an allowance that would not count as pay for pension purposes.
Dave
*If I remember right it the figure in the adverts was £84 a week. This seemed pretty good in the 70's, it's gone up rather since then mind.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, the omission of flying pay from pension has always been a sore in the side of aircrew. The taxpayer has had a very good deal out of it but the aircrew who grew into their enhanced salary have had to cope with a pension that is nothing like a final salary scheme.
A better description of the aircrew pension would be a part final salary scheme.
A better description of the aircrew pension would be a part final salary scheme.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
8-15 and others
On the extract you produce from SJ, seems to me he is deploring the waste of taxpayers money by the.....public sector.
Kinda treads on your point rather than supporting it.
On a wider note, people such as myself (who worked for a long time in the Armed Forces AKA public sector) get bent out of shape, not so much by the harping on about the paucity of the armed forces lot, but as by the constant comparison with other sectors. Operational under resourcing is out of order...full stop. But like it or not, the pay, conditions and pension arrangements for the armed forces, and almost all the rest of the public sector, are vastly better than the rest (majority) of the working people of the UK.
Read Doctor Cruces post re civil servants and council workers...real people doing real jobs and often worse off overall then many in the Armed Forces (I know "should have done better in school" yawn).
When you collectively slag off "the private sector" you encompass half the working population of the UK who work in small business (and that now includes me). Pay rates are half the UK average in this sector; holidays are the UK minmum (24 days per year) and pensions are frankly unknown.
So if you must blow off about the lack of money, resources whatever, it would nice if you could do so without throwing a collective onslaught at millions of people, most of whom support you fully and all of whom you are paid to serve.
On the extract you produce from SJ, seems to me he is deploring the waste of taxpayers money by the.....public sector.
Kinda treads on your point rather than supporting it.
On a wider note, people such as myself (who worked for a long time in the Armed Forces AKA public sector) get bent out of shape, not so much by the harping on about the paucity of the armed forces lot, but as by the constant comparison with other sectors. Operational under resourcing is out of order...full stop. But like it or not, the pay, conditions and pension arrangements for the armed forces, and almost all the rest of the public sector, are vastly better than the rest (majority) of the working people of the UK.
Read Doctor Cruces post re civil servants and council workers...real people doing real jobs and often worse off overall then many in the Armed Forces (I know "should have done better in school" yawn).
When you collectively slag off "the private sector" you encompass half the working population of the UK who work in small business (and that now includes me). Pay rates are half the UK average in this sector; holidays are the UK minmum (24 days per year) and pensions are frankly unknown.
So if you must blow off about the lack of money, resources whatever, it would nice if you could do so without throwing a collective onslaught at millions of people, most of whom support you fully and all of whom you are paid to serve.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Wilts
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder how many ex ORs who didn't reach complete a 22 year pensionable engagement claim the pension they are entitled to at age 60. I bet the government is sitting on a lot of unclaimed money. HMG doesn't tell you about it, it is up to the individual to claim.
A mate who completed 13 years and left as a Junior Technician in 1975 now gets £250 a month. He claimed it a year too late but got it backdated.
Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS)
A mate who completed 13 years and left as a Junior Technician in 1975 now gets £250 a month. He claimed it a year too late but got it backdated.
Armed Forces Pension Scheme (AFPS)
Last edited by DON T; 19th Dec 2008 at 08:16.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Wilts
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TOFO, thanks for engaging. Please accept my apology I do not mean to collectively slag off all those who work in the private sector, nor everyone who leads companies in the private sector, but that select and significant minority (typified by the CBI) who continually trumpet a private good, public bad message. Although I admit the tone of my previous posts are far too sweeping!
However, what Simon Jenkin was getting at (I think, (my) previous posts are an indicator of poor performance) is that the privatisation mentality is what is effecting public services. Even in public services where privatisation has not occured, the 'consultants' have been in and enforced changes on public organisations. There are some things that should remain public and other services that are better in the private sphere, I feel that too many services that should be public are now private (look inside the Education, Health and Defence depts) and although initially these services are cheaper, over time they get more expensive (when public capacity to perform the role is gone) and the service is rarely better, or indeed as good and hence end up costing a whole lot more, to all taxpayers.
The doctrinaire approach of some Captains of Finance and Industry have caused this current crisis and I fear the 'more of the same' calls by groups such as the CBI are going to make it much, much worse.
Finally TOFO I apologise (again) for 'blowing off' at millions of hard working people in the private sector they are indeed the people we are paid to serve. Perhaps it's that sentiment of collectivism that my more specific target from the previous paragraph need to adopt.
BTW - Where is my award, you didn't send it by TNT did you??
However, what Simon Jenkin was getting at (I think, (my) previous posts are an indicator of poor performance) is that the privatisation mentality is what is effecting public services. Even in public services where privatisation has not occured, the 'consultants' have been in and enforced changes on public organisations. There are some things that should remain public and other services that are better in the private sphere, I feel that too many services that should be public are now private (look inside the Education, Health and Defence depts) and although initially these services are cheaper, over time they get more expensive (when public capacity to perform the role is gone) and the service is rarely better, or indeed as good and hence end up costing a whole lot more, to all taxpayers.
The doctrinaire approach of some Captains of Finance and Industry have caused this current crisis and I fear the 'more of the same' calls by groups such as the CBI are going to make it much, much worse.
Finally TOFO I apologise (again) for 'blowing off' at millions of hard working people in the private sector they are indeed the people we are paid to serve. Perhaps it's that sentiment of collectivism that my more specific target from the previous paragraph need to adopt.
BTW - Where is my award, you didn't send it by TNT did you??
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DC-Please be careful about old 'facts' and new ones. You are wrong in your assumption about 'free rent, coal, elec' etc-that is an assumption often quoted but is factually innaccurate. It may have been the case of old, in some locations throughout the world on an irregular basis-but it is certainly not the case now-people in often appauling Service accomodation even pay council tax, you may be surprised to hear. Serviceman on the whole pay a 'market rate' rent and all their own bills nowadays-indeed it is actually quite expensive given the often frequency of enforced family moves. You therefore need to enlighten yourself of facts rather than hearsay.
As to your other point about 'knocking' others within another public Service I agree with you. One of the myriad of reasons I left the Service after almost 24 years was the demoralisation of all public services, and especially those on the RAF. Not helped by the in fighting for money between those services, it is an easy get out clause to blame individuals and their Ts & Cs for the lack of strategic, thoughtful and targeted investment and management. An easy example is one of extracting a half col and his guys from a nasty place, when a 'programmed delay' of repatriation annoyed him considerably. Suffering from 'small man syndrome', he protested viamently, explaining that he was about to be promoted, 'threatening' to write and complain to the CAS, or even CDS as he was an RAF chap! After being educated about the fact that the airbridge was controlled and planned by a joint team, led by a brigadier he was shocked and shut up.(I would like to believe that he acted with the best of intentions, wanting to get his guys back to blighty in a timely manner-but speaking to another of his senior guys that may be a bit generous!).
The point is, finally(!), that it is often too easy to get irate at the 'coal face' and blame the immediate environment (ie people) involved. Consider the environment that those of our public servants have to work in, including the broken system with which they have to work (all too often overworked and underpayed and with great dedication-as has been demonstrated by those civil Servants that worked for me at one time!). I personnally believe that those working at the pension 'place'(wherever that is!) and Xafinity do a good job, given the scale and resources to complete it.
PS What about the removal allowance(not including expense's-which is on top of that!!!) that civil servants get?-at last count it was worth about 5000 quid per move.(1995 ish)....
As to your other point about 'knocking' others within another public Service I agree with you. One of the myriad of reasons I left the Service after almost 24 years was the demoralisation of all public services, and especially those on the RAF. Not helped by the in fighting for money between those services, it is an easy get out clause to blame individuals and their Ts & Cs for the lack of strategic, thoughtful and targeted investment and management. An easy example is one of extracting a half col and his guys from a nasty place, when a 'programmed delay' of repatriation annoyed him considerably. Suffering from 'small man syndrome', he protested viamently, explaining that he was about to be promoted, 'threatening' to write and complain to the CAS, or even CDS as he was an RAF chap! After being educated about the fact that the airbridge was controlled and planned by a joint team, led by a brigadier he was shocked and shut up.(I would like to believe that he acted with the best of intentions, wanting to get his guys back to blighty in a timely manner-but speaking to another of his senior guys that may be a bit generous!).
The point is, finally(!), that it is often too easy to get irate at the 'coal face' and blame the immediate environment (ie people) involved. Consider the environment that those of our public servants have to work in, including the broken system with which they have to work (all too often overworked and underpayed and with great dedication-as has been demonstrated by those civil Servants that worked for me at one time!). I personnally believe that those working at the pension 'place'(wherever that is!) and Xafinity do a good job, given the scale and resources to complete it.
PS What about the removal allowance(not including expense's-which is on top of that!!!) that civil servants get?-at last count it was worth about 5000 quid per move.(1995 ish)....
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: N. Spain
Age: 79
Posts: 1,311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A mate who completed 13 years and left as a Junior Technician in 1975 now gets £250 a month. He claimed it a year too late but got it backdated.
Apparently parliament cannot change it retrospectively although I hear they managed to do it for MPs?
