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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

Old 4th Apr 2018, 02:50
  #3521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 1
Question New RAAF Aviation Selection Program 2018 (PC-21)

Hi all,

My intention here is not to be spoon feed information on the new ASP for Officer candidates (starting early 2018), rather I wish to know if anyone has come across any helpful sites/links in regards to any of the following domains:
  • Perceptual processing
  • Short-term memory and capacity
  • Spatial reasoning
  • Symbolic reasoning
  • Central information processing
Any other helpful links for other domains for the new ADF Officer ASP would be GREATLY appreciated!

Cheers guys.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 03:03
  #3522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
Posts: 23
Thanks again Hans, will look into other roles if they interest me.

Tayra I am applying for ADFA, that seems very tough. By group do you mean the group of 12 in the same ASP or do you mean another ASP. My guess is in the same ASP. If ASP started in March and we assume they have had 1 asp per week until now, that would be about 5 ASPs, from 40 candidates around 8 pass on average (that's what I got told from someone else that has done the ASP) and say about 4 deemed competitive. That would be 20 candidates in the OSB pool as of now (give or take, no idea how accurate these estimates are, if anyone can find out the ASP schedule that would be great, on the RAAF website it says it was supposed to be up late 2017 but there's nothing there. Or if you have a better idea of how many actually progress to OSB). Also selection for ASP after your assessment day is not based of a pool like FSP was correct? If you passed assessment day, you were invited. Although if you weren't invited to flight screening (if they didn't deem your profile competitive) then even if you get a good score on ASP, your chances may still be low to get selected for OSB. But hey, at least they give you chance now.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 03:51
  #3523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Hunter16 View Post
Hi all,

My intention here is not to be spoon feed information on the new ASP for Officer candidates (starting early 2018), rather I wish to know if anyone has come across any helpful sites/links in regards to any of the following domains:
  • Perceptual processing
  • Short-term memory and capacity
  • Spatial reasoning
  • Symbolic reasoning
  • Central information processing
Any other helpful links for other domains for the new ADF Officer ASP would be GREATLY appreciated!

Cheers guys.
The briefest of searches would have sent you here...

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...l#post10106576

Last edited by Slezy9; 4th Apr 2018 at 03:52. Reason: Link
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 04:07
  #3524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 41
Each ASP course had 10 candidates on it. The testing room can seat up to 12. Numbers are probably limited by accommodation, chaperone staff availability etc.

As of the end of March around 120-130 candidates had been screened. Seems about 1 in 20 are getting a competitive score for pilot. That rate may go up as BFTS (soon to be 1FTS again) can accommodate more students and thus the competitive score goes down to increase supply.

A competitive score for ADFA pilot may well be lower because you won't be entering the training pipeline for several years.

I think you are right in that any candidates who pass all the requirements up to and including their assessment day will most likely get an ASP slot. It may well still be merit based but the time you'll wait will be much shorter than the wait for flight screening was.

Last edited by tayra; 4th Apr 2018 at 09:03.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 04:58
  #3525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
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Originally Posted by tayra View Post
Each ASP course had 10 candidates on it. The testing room can seat up to 12. Numbers are probably limited by accommodation, chaperone staff availability etc.

As of the end of March around 120-130 candidates had been screened. Seems about 1 in 20 are getting a competitive score for pilot. That rate may go up as BFTS (soon to be 1FTS again) can accommodate more students and thus the competitive score goes down to increase supply.

A competitive score for ADFA pilot may well be lower because you won't be entering the training pipeline for several years.

I think you are right in that any candidates who pass all the requirements up to and including their assessment day will most likely get an ASP slot. It may well still be merit based but the time you'll wait will be much shorter than the wait for flight screening was.

I have not heard of anyone being paneled for an OSB yet, pilot or aco/atc.
Ah ok, that makes sense, considering I won't be applying for direct entry, I hope there is a lower score lol, seems sort of unfair for the DE people but supply and demand, ah well, no point complaining. Also could you gauge how many people from your ASP (and past ones) applied for direct entry vs ADFA? Will that even matter? I should probably just worry about myself instead of trying to count my chances haha. Does anyone know how many ADFA pilot OSB's they hold per year? Guessing it'll change drastically since ASP has just rolled out.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 06:16
  #3526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1
Hey guys, I'm hoping some of you guys may be able to help me out seeing as recruitment have given me nothing.

So I was given an 'advanced offer' back in December, their way of saying "your offer isn't ready yet but we want you to know you don't have to redo ASP". They slapped on a date of 18th May and that was it. It's now April and I've received no information as to what that date is for, when to attend a PFA session or any answers to any questions for that matter.

Does anyone have any insight into the wording of my offer being "effective from 18th May"? Is that the date I leave, the date I start OTS, etc.? I've asked my case manager but she knows nothing. Another thing no one seems to be able to tell me is what happens to my stuff (i.e. furniture, belongings, car) when I leave? I'm assuming they store it but is what happens in between my responsibility or theirs?

Also, has anyone had any experience in carting their own PC builds on to base or ditched it for a laptop/tablet? I realise it sounds like a dumb question but I don't want to do anything unneccessary if I don't have to.

Has anyone been able to squeeze out of a lease early due to Defence service?

I'd appreciate any answers or insight, thanks guys
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 08:53
  #3527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 96
Oh, and...

I believe DEO and ADFA ASP's are held separately. From what I know they were largely to be held this month to fit in with the school holiday period. So, who knows what the competitive score will be for ADFA candidates.
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 09:26
  #3528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Vatican View Post

So I was given an 'advanced offer' back in December,
I have not heard of an "advanced offer". According to the RAAF website, if you were not given an actual offer prior to Jan 1st 2018 you will need to attend the ASP. Were you a pilot candidate or something else? Perhaps someone else reading this thread could jump in on this one?

At this point there are only intakes for July/August 2018. I did however hear rumours of a possible 5th course intake starting this May but don't quote me on it.

Originally Posted by Vatican View Post
Another thing no one seems to be able to tell me is what happens to my stuff (i.e. furniture, belongings, car) when I leave?
Sorry, but I had to laugh at this. While it's the least of your concerns at this point, have a read through this:
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R...ctions&ie=&oe=

Squeezing out of a lease early is solely dependant on the landlord: basically whether they are a prick or not.

Last edited by hansfalkenhagen; 4th Apr 2018 at 09:36. Reason: link
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Old 4th Apr 2018, 11:59
  #3529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
Posts: 23
@hans That's great if the ADFA and DEO ASP is separate (hopefully that means lower score since there are more Pilot slots in ADFA especially at the start of the year), my chances aren't looking bad and I'm on ASP coming up quite soon so looks like I'll be one of the first few. Also, is there any tests which involve pen and paper (like additional testing / you session exams)? Or is it all mental arithmetic?
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 10:33
  #3530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I can't really comment on that.

Like I've said many times before, the best thing you can do is practice any old aptitude test in general. Get used to reading and answering questions quickly and accurately.

"Preparing" yourself for the ASP will probably only get you a 5-10% increase in your results (besides good rest and nutrition). You can't really increase your cognitive ability or increase your IQ; it is what it is.

For most, there's bigger issues than your ASP grades. Recently I was reading a thesis on the Canadian military's pilot selection. It suggested that your psych evaluation will have just as heavy bearing on your chances of pilot selection as the ASP will. For example, those with higher levels of "consciousness" and lower levels of "extraversion" and "neuroticism" are looked upon much more favourably than those whose levels were reversed for these particular functions. Even for officer candidates in general, your second and third function for personality typing should be "intuited" and "thinking", with the first and fourth function having no bearing. This is the Five Factor Model and research started by Carl Jung, if anyone's not familiar with it).

While this is just speculation, I still think that this is perhaps why some candidates who scored higher than I did were not offered OSBs. The ADF know what they are looking for. There's not a lot you can do to change your traits, cognitive ability, personality functions, etc.

I'd just go along and try to enjoy the experience, and good luck!
Absolutely amazing stuff, can't believe you weren't recommended. This is very interesting, seems there's more to this than meets the eye. In the thesis, was there any mention of how these traits were determined and how old is this thesis? Are they based off some ASP results or your initial psych evaluation from assessment day
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Old 6th Apr 2018, 12:58
  #3531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by quantify View Post
Absolutely amazing stuff, can't believe you weren't recommended. This is very interesting, seems there's more to this than meets the eye. In the thesis, was there any mention of how these traits were determined and how old is this thesis? Are they based off some ASP results or your initial psych evaluation from assessment day
I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 01:30
  #3532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.
If that's the case, how come so many people fail pilots course then?? Failure rates traditionally hover around the 30-40% level. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

My course started with 24 and finished with 9.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 03:13
  #3533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Perth
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
That;s great, hope you get the offer. What's interesting is something I overlooked and just realised about the selection of ASP candidates. In the invitation email, it said that if I wasn't available for the given dates, "I would be placed back in the competitive pool for a potential future offer", does this confirm that ASP is merit based? Also based on your speculation, if the psych evaluation conducted at assessment day is just as important as the ASP results, then one could say that getting an offer for ASP would prove difficult if they determined your psych was not suitable for pilot. But again, they are screening for 3 jobs and not just pilot so getting an offer regardless for other roles makes sense.

Last edited by quantify; 7th Apr 2018 at 23:25.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 03:14
  #3534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
If that's the case, how come so many people fail pilots course then?? Failure rates traditionally hover around the 30-40% level. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

My course started with 24 and finished with 9.
So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 05:47
  #3535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen View Post
So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."
No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 06:47
  #3536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.
than you better go visit hermann goring's grave and let him know his hiring practices were second to none
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:05
  #3537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
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So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:18
  #3538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)
Not my opinion. It's the opinion i've read in several thesis written on the topic, with data collected since 1999. The ASP has the same computer test used by other militaries around the world
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:40
  #3539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.

I didn't get the privilege to attend flight screening but those on my ASP who had said that there was very little crossover. So objectively the ASP and flight screening are two completely different selection tools and being good at one doesn't necessitate being good at the other.

Also Hans, I wish as many people read my Masters thesis as that Canadian lady's.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 12:51
  #3540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
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Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU.
That is indeed true!
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