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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

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RAAF Flight Screening Programme

Old 7th Apr 2018, 03:13
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen
I was recommended. I am still waiting on a date for my OSB.

The thesis was written in 2014 but is summarized from about 20 years of data.

The psych traits are determined during your assessment day. Your cognitive ability is determined during your ASP.

Your paperwork (on the provision you have received it by now) will list all the things ACMC take in to account when offering OSB's to certain candidates. I listed these a few pages back. Basically, countries like the UK, Canada, India, etc have had programs similar to the ASP for years. They have enough data to know exactly what type of candidate will pass pilot's training and thus not waste the ADF's time and the tax payer's dollar.

The ADF are essentially looking for specific indicators that define
successful pilot candidates:
- certain psychological traits
- a certain cut-off for cognitive aptitude testing
- high levels of motivation (so you don't have a cry half way through training and decide you want to quit)
- AVMED Class 1 (pretty self-explanatory)

How flexible they are on these indicators is anyone's guess.

Finally, during the OSB, I think the ADF will know within about 10 seconds of meeting you if they want to hire you or not.
That;s great, hope you get the offer. What's interesting is something I overlooked and just realised about the selection of ASP candidates. In the invitation email, it said that if I wasn't available for the given dates, "I would be placed back in the competitive pool for a potential future offer", does this confirm that ASP is merit based? Also based on your speculation, if the psych evaluation conducted at assessment day is just as important as the ASP results, then one could say that getting an offer for ASP would prove difficult if they determined your psych was not suitable for pilot. But again, they are screening for 3 jobs and not just pilot so getting an offer regardless for other roles makes sense.

Last edited by quantify; 7th Apr 2018 at 23:25.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 05:47
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen
So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.

If everyone who sat your course completed the ASP before starting pilot's course, then chances are you would have only had 9 people start the course in the first place, effectively lowering the fail rate. See the point I am making here?

Somewhere along the lines someone in the ADF has said "hmmm... countries that use this particular cognitive test have a much lower fail-rate in pilot's course than we do. Perhaps we should change the FSP to the ASP, it is a cheaper alternative after all."
No. The reason other countries have higher pass rates is because they have a different training philosophy. Take the Luftwaffe for example, once you're in you are given the hours required to meet there standard. In the RAAF you get 2 remedials, a psych consult and then a re-fly, fail that and you're potentially gone.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:05
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So many people have failed pilot's course in Aus because it is much easier to pass the FSP than it is the ASP.
Hans, that's a big call at an early stage!
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
(My course was 8 graduates of 28 starters - which is a waste...)
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 10:40
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight
One can only hope the ASP turns out to be the filter that stops such attrition on Pilots' Course.
From my research and what I could squeeze out of those who are close to the new selection and training systems down in Sale; the ASP is not as good a predictor of success on pilots course up until wings level (it is, just not to a huge degree of statistical significance) as it is a predictor of successful completion of an operational conversion. Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU. At least with the new air academy it's very simple (or is intended to be) for someone to slot straight into another role should they fail early on.

I didn't get the privilege to attend flight screening but those on my ASP who had said that there was very little crossover. So objectively the ASP and flight screening are two completely different selection tools and being good at one doesn't necessitate being good at the other.

Also Hans, I wish as many people read my Masters thesis as that Canadian lady's.
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 12:51
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Even though it is still a huge waste of money for someone to scrub out at BFTS or 2FTS it's relatively small compared to losing someone in their final weeks at 2OCU.
That is indeed true!
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Old 7th Apr 2018, 21:29
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen
We have adopted the RAF's selection criteria. I don't believe we will ever have a 100% pass rate but we will certainly be seeing an improvement.
We may have adopted the RAF selection process but we haven't adopted the RAF training philosophy...

Remedial training time limits will still see 20-30% of people not pass pilots course.

BTW, you are very confident for someone who hasn't even set foot in the door...
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 03:20
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The RAF has everyone start a fast jet course. If a trainee fails this they will be streamed to multi eng or Rotarhead.
The RAAF has one completion standard. You either make it or you don't.
Because of this the RAF has always had a better pass rate.
The course I was on started a few months after Joseph's, 29 started and 19 passed.

Last edited by donpizmeov; 8th Apr 2018 at 07:27.
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Old 8th Apr 2018, 13:11
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In addition to the preceding comments about training, my own observations about BFTS/2FTS are that the RAAF is as much about being able to quickly learn/adapt as it is in mastering required flying skills - hence the different approach.

With sufficient repetition most people who got to BFTS would likely complete 2FTS. But then military flying is rarely repetitious ...
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 06:42
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18 started and 12 passed.

Agreed, you seem pretty good at telling a group of people (some of whom are QFIís with years of experience) how it is. Thatíll go down well on pilots course.
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 13:20
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Being smart and skilled isn't enough. Some examples:

Two ADFA graduates I knew, both with significant GA experience: one failed during BFTS; the other during 2FTS

Another student failed a re-test of the final sequence at BFTS. I later worked with a friend of theirs and was told the student was so stressed that failing the flight (and the course) came as a huge relief.

And another student was back-coursed because of (rumour had it) his 'attitude' toward instructors
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 21:52
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Originally Posted by hansfalkenhagen
Calm down, Junior. I have relayed information and statistics that have been made from people whom are much smarter than we are, that's it. I can link you the reports and theses if you like.

Like I've said before, this thread has been helpful to me so I have decided to share my experience of the ASP for those who are still waiting for an invite - it was a 10 month wait for most of us, and may be longer for those yet to receive an offer.

I think I'll make this my last post and just get on with it.

This is a thread is for aspiring pilots after all, not disgruntled ones. And cheer up in the mean time, you do have a fantastic career.
I can see this ending in tears.
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Old 9th Apr 2018, 22:21
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I completed my RAAF pilot course in 1976 and the scrub rate then was around 30% and the selection process was nowhere near as thorough or sophisticated as it appears to be these days which makes me wonder what benefit there is in having the RAAF flight screening process when the end result over the last 40+ years is essentially unchanged.

Cheers,
BH.

Last edited by Bullethead; 10th Apr 2018 at 00:48.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 00:59
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BH

I have different figures. Srub rate was around 50+% in 80's and 90's. When all thru PC9 started scrub rate went up. Flight screening was introduced with the pass rate fluctuating between 55% and 65%. So definitely an improvement. But stats like photo's do lie. What do I mean? The old planning style of putting double the number you wanted on course to get the number you needed stuck. This simply means if we the RAAF had just put on the better risk people rather than filling the seats by placing high risk people on course the scrub rate would have been far less.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 11:12
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Can someone please explain how to do big division quickly in your head? I can simplify some fractions, but struggle with others.

You burn 150 kgs of fuel per hour. How much fuel will you need to travel 754 miles if you average a speed of 870 mph?

how do you divide the fraction of 754/870

You travel at an average speed of 190 mph. How much fuel do you need for a 114 mile trip if you burn 50 kgs per hour?

how do you simplify 114/190? I get it will become 57/95 after which I get stuck. Any help would be great, thanks.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 12:02
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Gíday finest,

Thanks for the extra info, I wasnít aware of the increase in the scrub rate in the 80s and 90s.

Cheers,
BH.
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Old 10th Apr 2018, 21:05
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Originally Posted by quantify
Can someone please explain how to do big division quickly in your head? I can simplify some fractions, but struggle with others.

You burn 150 kgs of fuel per hour. How much fuel will you need to travel 754 miles if you average a speed of 870 mph?

how do you divide the fraction of 754/870

You travel at an average speed of 190 mph. How much fuel do you need for a 114 mile trip if you burn 50 kgs per hour?

how do you simplify 114/190? I get it will become 57/95 after which I get stuck. Any help would be great, thanks.
I’d use the fact that 60mph is a mile a minute, then work from there.

1. 870 mph is 14.5 miles per minute. (14*6 = 84 and half of 6 gets you the remaining 3 to get 87) use a factor of 10 to make the numbers smaller.

14.5 miles a minute, is 1450 miles in a 100 minutes. Half of 1450 is 725. So, in 50 minutes we cover 725 miles (nearly there) Add another 2 minutes at 14.5 miles per minute gets you to 753 and 52 minutes. Close enough. That’s .9 (ish) of an hour. .9 of 150 kg is 135kg.

They’ve given you numbers that work with mile/minute and it’s multiples. If it’s multiple choice, then you wouldn’t have to be so precise. Mile a minute, 3 times descent rates, and maybe 1 in 60 are some of the techniques that have a practical application. Most pilots are good at their 6 times tables.

There’s probably also a clever way to do it. I’m not clever
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 09:51
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ASP OSB invites

Has anyone been invited to a pilot OSB (from March ASP's) or does anyone know of any invites being sent out?
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Old 11th Apr 2018, 10:38
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Hey AT,

I haven't heard of any invites going out yet, but I know the next OSB for Brisbane candidates is in late May. If DFR have similar dates all around Australia, some invites might be going out in the next few weeks.
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Old 12th Apr 2018, 04:50
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In addition to May, my case manager also said in August.
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Old 19th Apr 2018, 04:05
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Hi all

I am attending the 7th-10th May ASP.
If anyone is on the same course feel free to get in touch via private message.
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