Horse Breeder sues MOD over Jets
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As far as i know no property searches in the UK have ever considered low flying routes- as the information is not available to the local councils whom the solicitors turn to for the information. Legally, information is required on the likes of rights of way, former industrial use, contamination, proximity to land fill etc- but no such requirement is made for aircraft transit routes (as opposed to being on an airport flightpath etc).
Council tax payers would moan at the cost of constantly updated digital aviation charts being purchased by their council for what they would consider a non essential service.
Council tax payers would moan at the cost of constantly updated digital aviation charts being purchased by their council for what they would consider a non essential service.
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If the horses are getting white spots, wont that make them more rare and valuable so actually low flying is helping her business!
She should stay in and watch more Jeremy Kyle for the real world issues!!
She should stay in and watch more Jeremy Kyle for the real world issues!!
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If the lady was a horse owner and just a horse owner, I can imagine that not checking aircraft activity etc. could be acceptable. To set up a stud farm takes time. Surely in all this time she noticed some FJ activity.
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Other reports detail she moved in in 2000, and first noticed the jets in the next spring.
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/late...ver.4162256.jp
She also has previous with the courts and animals
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...nd/6201361.stm
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/late...ver.4162256.jp
She also has previous with the courts and animals
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...nd/6201361.stm
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If a horse has a field in which to run and do its thing when its spooked then what is the issue.
In all the time I have flown over horses low level I have never seen any of them choosing to hit a fence rather than run into the open space of a field. Sounds like a massive mountain out of molehills as usual, I could be wrong but I thought horses enjoyed running
As an aside, wearing fluorescent jacket does not suddenly make horse riders jump out from the surrounding countryside. If riders happen to be behind a ridge, bush, treeline, in dead ground or any other manner of cover then crews are unlikely to see them until its too late.
Crews do have an almost pathological fear of horses and riders that is not helped by irresponsible riders not doing their bit to help things. Crews do indeed try everything in their powers to avoid any kind of conflict with horses (and chicken farms, LFA avoids and several other sensitive areas) as the implications of doing so are huge and are potential career enders.
Please dont start another witch hunt and blame the guys who are doing the flying as they do everything in their power to avoid flying over LFA avoids or sensitive areas.
The best way to try and educate complainers I believe is to get them into the sqn and speak to the guys, get them involved in the planning process including the Vol 3, NOTAMs, LFA avoids, planning docs, LFA bookings, PINS, Royal flights, Wx etc. After they have done this take them flying and let them see first hand how difficult the whole process is.
I would be willing to bet that if you give them one task of identifying an IP, TP or landmark they would not manage that never mind having any chance of seeing a lone horse and rider.
I think the big problem is education and understanding not trying to win an argument about who is right and wrong. The viewpoint of "who will they be shouting on when the hun come over the horizon" doesnt really cut it. The public at large just dont understand the problems we as military aviators face. The only way we will make headway is by opening dialogue and trying to help them to understand.
Anyway thats my 2 pennies worth
HG
In all the time I have flown over horses low level I have never seen any of them choosing to hit a fence rather than run into the open space of a field. Sounds like a massive mountain out of molehills as usual, I could be wrong but I thought horses enjoyed running
As an aside, wearing fluorescent jacket does not suddenly make horse riders jump out from the surrounding countryside. If riders happen to be behind a ridge, bush, treeline, in dead ground or any other manner of cover then crews are unlikely to see them until its too late.
Crews do have an almost pathological fear of horses and riders that is not helped by irresponsible riders not doing their bit to help things. Crews do indeed try everything in their powers to avoid any kind of conflict with horses (and chicken farms, LFA avoids and several other sensitive areas) as the implications of doing so are huge and are potential career enders.
Please dont start another witch hunt and blame the guys who are doing the flying as they do everything in their power to avoid flying over LFA avoids or sensitive areas.
The best way to try and educate complainers I believe is to get them into the sqn and speak to the guys, get them involved in the planning process including the Vol 3, NOTAMs, LFA avoids, planning docs, LFA bookings, PINS, Royal flights, Wx etc. After they have done this take them flying and let them see first hand how difficult the whole process is.
I would be willing to bet that if you give them one task of identifying an IP, TP or landmark they would not manage that never mind having any chance of seeing a lone horse and rider.
I think the big problem is education and understanding not trying to win an argument about who is right and wrong. The viewpoint of "who will they be shouting on when the hun come over the horizon" doesnt really cut it. The public at large just dont understand the problems we as military aviators face. The only way we will make headway is by opening dialogue and trying to help them to understand.
Anyway thats my 2 pennies worth
HG
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Heights Good,
Everything you say makes good 'pro-active' sense, can only think of two snags / improvements; you'd need a plentifull supply of sick bags, and ideally a simulated SAM / AAA attack - that should get her mind concentrated !
DZ
Everything you say makes good 'pro-active' sense, can only think of two snags / improvements; you'd need a plentifull supply of sick bags, and ideally a simulated SAM / AAA attack - that should get her mind concentrated !
DZ
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Suzysparkle
I fly Sea Kings.
The decision on avoiding horse and rider is usually near to last-minute. Our view is that the increased noise (blade slap) from a harsh late avoid manoeuvre is likely to do more harm than simply continuing on track. It's not as if we can either creep up quietly or arrive unannounced at Mach 0.lots in a Sea King.
If we are wrong, it would be nice to know. Your thoughts?
Sven
I fly Sea Kings.
The decision on avoiding horse and rider is usually near to last-minute. Our view is that the increased noise (blade slap) from a harsh late avoid manoeuvre is likely to do more harm than simply continuing on track. It's not as if we can either creep up quietly or arrive unannounced at Mach 0.lots in a Sea King.
If we are wrong, it would be nice to know. Your thoughts?
Sven
Completely agree with Sven and a couple of others. It may not look like we're taking avoiding action but to fly over at 250ft is, probably, a better compromise than putting down a whole load of bladeslap at 100ft in an attempt to go round the rider. A gentle (ie, no extra power) climb just takes the noise higher and disperses it. It would be interesting to hear a horse rider's view on this.
On hi visibility, there is no doubt, it stands out a mile provided that:
a. The rider is not hidden (although it still helps through some 'thinner' trees)
b. The rider and horse wear the stuff. A thin vest doesn't really work and the rider needs to wear a full jacket. In addition, the horse should wear a hi-viz cover. Anything less compromises the positive results of the trial. I know that isn't popular with a lot of riders as they want to look part of the country in their browns and greens but it's a fact of life, if only so that they don't get run down by a car.
One final point: The trial was only for helicopters and as a direct result of the Bell case. I'm not sure how much the FJ fraternity can take from the results of the trial but there must be some postitives. The RW have had to change an awful lot of their procedures and this has increased their workload when planning a low-level sortie. Isn't it only fair that the horse-riding society meets us halfway?
On hi visibility, there is no doubt, it stands out a mile provided that:
a. The rider is not hidden (although it still helps through some 'thinner' trees)
b. The rider and horse wear the stuff. A thin vest doesn't really work and the rider needs to wear a full jacket. In addition, the horse should wear a hi-viz cover. Anything less compromises the positive results of the trial. I know that isn't popular with a lot of riders as they want to look part of the country in their browns and greens but it's a fact of life, if only so that they don't get run down by a car.
One final point: The trial was only for helicopters and as a direct result of the Bell case. I'm not sure how much the FJ fraternity can take from the results of the trial but there must be some postitives. The RW have had to change an awful lot of their procedures and this has increased their workload when planning a low-level sortie. Isn't it only fair that the horse-riding society meets us halfway?
Red On, Green On
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I've (briefly) flown RW (and done some LL in the mighty 'Dog), live 5 miles form Benson and have ridden for over 40 years.
Sven is right about blade slap - the sudden increase in volume and pitch will spook a horse.
Hi viz needs to be on the horse, and on the rider. The rider's hi-viz is aligned vertically, while the horse's is more horizontal - the two need to be combined.
However, in summer even a hedge of 10' will obscure a horse from a LL aircraft until quite late, and many lanes and tracks have foliage much higher than 10', and right now it is very thick. Riders on moors/heaths will stand out, but in leafy Oxfordshire it's easy to hide a horse.
This picture is taken from ground level:
and so it's quite un-representative of what the pilot will see. Note that the best bit is the hi-viz hat cover. It's the highest point, and it's visible from 360 degrees. If all horse riders used one it would be a good start.
Sven is right about blade slap - the sudden increase in volume and pitch will spook a horse.
Hi viz needs to be on the horse, and on the rider. The rider's hi-viz is aligned vertically, while the horse's is more horizontal - the two need to be combined.
However, in summer even a hedge of 10' will obscure a horse from a LL aircraft until quite late, and many lanes and tracks have foliage much higher than 10', and right now it is very thick. Riders on moors/heaths will stand out, but in leafy Oxfordshire it's easy to hide a horse.
This picture is taken from ground level:
and so it's quite un-representative of what the pilot will see. Note that the best bit is the hi-viz hat cover. It's the highest point, and it's visible from 360 degrees. If all horse riders used one it would be a good start.
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waterhorse
melchett
obviously you have spent too much time or not enough in the bar if u thnk u are making rational comment
As a horse rider and mother of a rider who lives within shouting distance of two airbases, and with miltary connections I appreciate the job, but I repeat what I say - that not everyone has to put up with low flying if there can be some sort of compromise.
Most pilots stick to the circuit and yes if u buy a house near military aircraft u have to expect noise. To be fair, most horses get used to it, but a bit like a car that overtakes with no thought at high speed, a horse is going to react to it and that could be dangerous with a human rider on board. Does that not count as an important life to you??????????
Yes horses in a field do have room to spook - but can also injure themselves in the process. Unfortunately like it or not the pilots of visiting jets are the main offenders of low flying in our area. either they cannot read the station rules or don't bother. There is a problem that needs adressed here.
as for your remarks about a few horses not mattering, they do when there is a rider on board. I don't know the specifics of the woman and the court case but suspect she has exhausted other avenues.
PLus having already lost a member of my family to the MOD I don't intend to stand by and watch another have an accident because of an inconsiderate low passing jet that doesn't have to low fly right over our heads - especially when it is breaking into the circuit.
if your children were on the horse you would think twice cos animals are unpredictable.
pop by sometime - we'll let u have a go - nearly as hard to handle as an aircraft and a better adrenaline rush - but unlike some of these visiting easily excitable pilots most responsible horse riders learn to be quiet, patient and have nerves of steel. This is not straightforward as people like to horse ride, pilots like to fly and unfortunately never the twain shall meet.
obviously you have spent too much time or not enough in the bar if u thnk u are making rational comment
As a horse rider and mother of a rider who lives within shouting distance of two airbases, and with miltary connections I appreciate the job, but I repeat what I say - that not everyone has to put up with low flying if there can be some sort of compromise.
Most pilots stick to the circuit and yes if u buy a house near military aircraft u have to expect noise. To be fair, most horses get used to it, but a bit like a car that overtakes with no thought at high speed, a horse is going to react to it and that could be dangerous with a human rider on board. Does that not count as an important life to you??????????
Yes horses in a field do have room to spook - but can also injure themselves in the process. Unfortunately like it or not the pilots of visiting jets are the main offenders of low flying in our area. either they cannot read the station rules or don't bother. There is a problem that needs adressed here.
as for your remarks about a few horses not mattering, they do when there is a rider on board. I don't know the specifics of the woman and the court case but suspect she has exhausted other avenues.
PLus having already lost a member of my family to the MOD I don't intend to stand by and watch another have an accident because of an inconsiderate low passing jet that doesn't have to low fly right over our heads - especially when it is breaking into the circuit.
if your children were on the horse you would think twice cos animals are unpredictable.
pop by sometime - we'll let u have a go - nearly as hard to handle as an aircraft and a better adrenaline rush - but unlike some of these visiting easily excitable pilots most responsible horse riders learn to be quiet, patient and have nerves of steel. This is not straightforward as people like to horse ride, pilots like to fly and unfortunately never the twain shall meet.
Last edited by waterhorse; 11th Jun 2008 at 19:43.
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waterhorse
riders should wear flourescents - its good practice
and doesn't cost much
8.99 for brushing boots from tescos - tenner for a jacket
but doesn't mean that all aircraft would avoid them
and doesn't cost much
8.99 for brushing boots from tescos - tenner for a jacket
but doesn't mean that all aircraft would avoid them
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sounds like a white settler
It seems a really really odd place to have a stables breeding pure Arabs.
It's not in a horsey area and although there are race courses at Ayr and Hamilton the route to market is long and very winding. There is the usual point to point thing, but they are still a long way from the centres of activity in either Ayrshire or Dumfries and Galloway. In fact the regional boundary is not so far from where they are. It's also a long way from a specialist horse vet.
Sounds like another wanna-be good lifer has been given the five minute warning by the bank manager and has hit upon a potential source of cash.
It's not in a horsey area and although there are race courses at Ayr and Hamilton the route to market is long and very winding. There is the usual point to point thing, but they are still a long way from the centres of activity in either Ayrshire or Dumfries and Galloway. In fact the regional boundary is not so far from where they are. It's also a long way from a specialist horse vet.
Sounds like another wanna-be good lifer has been given the five minute warning by the bank manager and has hit upon a potential source of cash.
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Estate Agents!!
A while back and after a momentary lapse in concentration we went to view a house somewhere in Oxon. It was only when navigating to the village and using an OS map to check for nearby pubs that I realised our mistake and I said to my wife that we can't live here...
It was a Sunday and I directly asked the estate agent if the village suffered from aircraft noise, the reply "no its a very quiete village".
Really I thought 3.5 miles SW of Brize and no noise from the extreamly quiet VC10s/Tristars departing on the predominent runway!
riiight..
We once got a letter to the Stn Cdr from a lady thanking us for avoiding her on her horse.
It was a Sunday and I directly asked the estate agent if the village suffered from aircraft noise, the reply "no its a very quiete village".
Really I thought 3.5 miles SW of Brize and no noise from the extreamly quiet VC10s/Tristars departing on the predominent runway!
riiight..We once got a letter to the Stn Cdr from a lady thanking us for avoiding her on her horse.
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I directly asked the estate agent if the village suffered from aircraft noise, the reply "no its a very quiet village".
Had exactly the same thing myself with these people many moons ago. Playing devil's advocate (much to the annoyance of the memsahib) I asked an Aldershot estate agent about a lovely property in a place called Middle Wallop..............."lovely quiet place" says he!!!!
Had exactly the same thing myself with these people many moons ago. Playing devil's advocate (much to the annoyance of the memsahib) I asked an Aldershot estate agent about a lovely property in a place called Middle Wallop..............."lovely quiet place" says he!!!!
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CBU
What a shame Cluster Bombs have been withdrawn from service, she would have made a wonderful target . . . . These people do bore you. Keep silent my dear, its the sound of freedom.
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Snotty horse breeder
Hear Hear, S.W,
even flour bags / pots of paint should get the message across. I still think a hovering helo' painting a roundel on her roof would be a good starter...
even flour bags / pots of paint should get the message across. I still think a hovering helo' painting a roundel on her roof would be a good starter...
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WTFO?
Can you see the French putting up with this sort of cobblers? Mais non, a quick visit from the owner of La Boucherie and the Glue factory would quickly put paid to her winging. Did someone say Cheval et Frites?