Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Speke2me
I am so sorry but I cannot recall the workings of the fuel system in the Mossie. If it had been the Blenheim then it was a certainty that he had cut the fuel by pulling the fuel shut off valves situated behind and below his left side just above (or below,I can't remember) two identical levers that controlled the changing of the propellor from coarse to fine pitch and was a neccessity to operate after take off to enable the climb out to be controlled. As you could'nt see them and relied on "feel" in pulling the right one, you can imagine what happened time and time again. Yes, the nightmare scenario of baling out in the target area was always with every one of us and more so in my case because of my Jewish background but , like everything else, "It was not goimg to happen to you". Without that in your mind it would have been impossible to continue. In the long run you had to completely dismiss such thoughts from your mind and just get on with the job. I, too am enjoying the Typhoon thread. What a magnificent monster of an aeroplane that was and I wish that I had flown one. See your PM. Regle
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A Second Luftwaffe Reply.
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Re: LUFFTWAFFE
Thursday, 4 February, 2010 11:02
From:
"Friedrich P.Busch Director General EPEE" <[email protected]>
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Dear Cliff,
your message is well received.Unfortunately I am not one of the famous and highly respected and decorated WW II fighter aces of the Luftwaffe.
I am post war generation even though I spent 40 years in the Luftwaffe by that flying 38 years all kinds of combat planes accounting almost 5000 hours stick time.
I retired in 1998 as a General and amongst my assignments I also worked closely with the RAF Germany in NATO.
We have a historian in our Pilot Association who might be helpful in answering your questions.
You find Willi Goebel under [email protected]
A very nice reply .
Good Luck
Friedrich P.Busch
----- Original Message -----
From: clifford leach
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: LUFFTWAFFE
Re: LUFFTWAFFE
Thursday, 4 February, 2010 11:02
From:
"Friedrich P.Busch Director General EPEE" <[email protected]>
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To:
Dear Cliff,
your message is well received.Unfortunately I am not one of the famous and highly respected and decorated WW II fighter aces of the Luftwaffe.
I am post war generation even though I spent 40 years in the Luftwaffe by that flying 38 years all kinds of combat planes accounting almost 5000 hours stick time.
I retired in 1998 as a General and amongst my assignments I also worked closely with the RAF Germany in NATO.
We have a historian in our Pilot Association who might be helpful in answering your questions.
You find Willi Goebel under [email protected]
A very nice reply .
Good Luck
Friedrich P.Busch
----- Original Message -----
From: clifford leach
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: LUFFTWAFFE
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General Congratulations Cliff
Well done, Second draw out of the hat and you get a General ! Joking apart, we are all grateful for the tremendous amount of thought and work that you have put in to widen the scope of this very succesful Forum which, at last, looks as though it is beginning to bear fruit. I look forward to what could be a very interesting future. Reg
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USA Pilot Training
I have often wondered how pilot training in the USA differed from RAF training in this country so, recently, I typed in a search on Google and found this site. I started near the end and worked back a few pages then suddenly realised who REGLE was. Reg will not remember me, but I remember being introduced to him at a 51 Squadron association re-union at Wytton about twenty year ago. We last met at Waddington about twelve years ago.
I have now read all 76 pages with great fascination, with several wonderful themes. I don’t think I missed any pages, in which case Reg has a lot more to say about his experiences with SABENA!
My first flight was in 1936 when, as a15 year old, I had a day out at Southport. Flying from Ainsdale Sands was a Fox Moth G - AACB and I spent my entire savings, five shillings, on a brief circuit flown by Norman Giroup, owner of The Giro Aviation Company; and I was hooked.
When war was declared my school pal wanted me to fly with the Royal Navy, but I was slightly colour blind and I knew I would never pass the Navy tests.
An older neighbour had been selected for training as an Observer, but had spent his first year of service as a clerk in the Orderly Room. He warned me, “Don’t accept Immediate Service. Ask for Deferred Service, otherwise you may find yourself doing Latrine Duties!”
Having been on deferred service, I was called to No ! Receiving Wing in Babbacome, traveling down with three local friends who were all KIA during the next few years. On my first night in Babbacome, sleeping in a civilian billet, we were between the fifth and the sixth bombs of a stick, presumably jettisoned by a German bomber as he flew over the coast. I crawled out of the wreckage and found the house-holders safe under the kitchen table. So my first night was almost my last night of what might have been the shortest Service on record. This was the 3rd of May 1941.
After two weeks at Babbacombe we were paraded and march to No 4 Squadron, 5 ITW at the Toorack Hotel in Torquay, by P/O Livingstone and Corporal Ted Ditchburn, the Spurs and England Goal Keeper. Six weeks later we were told the married men were to train in England but the single men were to go to Canada, then cross as civilians into the USA to train under the new Arnold Scheme. The married men left. We bachelors entrained for London, then by coach across London, - not to Euston or Kings Cross but to Waterloo.
You’ve guessed it. The married men went abroad and the single men trained in England.
I started flying Tiger Moths at the Brooklands Flying Club at Fairoaks, now designated
No. 18 EFTS. Quite a different training programme compared with the USA training.
I have now read all 76 pages with great fascination, with several wonderful themes. I don’t think I missed any pages, in which case Reg has a lot more to say about his experiences with SABENA!
My first flight was in 1936 when, as a15 year old, I had a day out at Southport. Flying from Ainsdale Sands was a Fox Moth G - AACB and I spent my entire savings, five shillings, on a brief circuit flown by Norman Giroup, owner of The Giro Aviation Company; and I was hooked.
When war was declared my school pal wanted me to fly with the Royal Navy, but I was slightly colour blind and I knew I would never pass the Navy tests.
An older neighbour had been selected for training as an Observer, but had spent his first year of service as a clerk in the Orderly Room. He warned me, “Don’t accept Immediate Service. Ask for Deferred Service, otherwise you may find yourself doing Latrine Duties!”
Having been on deferred service, I was called to No ! Receiving Wing in Babbacome, traveling down with three local friends who were all KIA during the next few years. On my first night in Babbacome, sleeping in a civilian billet, we were between the fifth and the sixth bombs of a stick, presumably jettisoned by a German bomber as he flew over the coast. I crawled out of the wreckage and found the house-holders safe under the kitchen table. So my first night was almost my last night of what might have been the shortest Service on record. This was the 3rd of May 1941.
After two weeks at Babbacombe we were paraded and march to No 4 Squadron, 5 ITW at the Toorack Hotel in Torquay, by P/O Livingstone and Corporal Ted Ditchburn, the Spurs and England Goal Keeper. Six weeks later we were told the married men were to train in England but the single men were to go to Canada, then cross as civilians into the USA to train under the new Arnold Scheme. The married men left. We bachelors entrained for London, then by coach across London, - not to Euston or Kings Cross but to Waterloo.
You’ve guessed it. The married men went abroad and the single men trained in England.
I started flying Tiger Moths at the Brooklands Flying Club at Fairoaks, now designated
No. 18 EFTS. Quite a different training programme compared with the USA training.
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fredjhh
Welcome to the Forum. I am so sorry but I cannot recall meeting you at either of those reunions but it is not surprising as there were so many people there as usual. I understand perfectly what you are getting at and I am sure that you will understand when I suggest that you get in touch with me by means of a private message with details and I will put you in the picture. I hope that you enjoy the Forum and I am sure that you must have some more to give to it. All the best, Reg
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REGLE
Reg, new to this site and have not worked out private mails. I was mouldering in a Gestapo Gaol when you joined 51. Tom Nelson introduced me to you at Wyton. See Page 83 of Snaith Days. Fred
You have foxed me completely ! Surely you must have meant "Fortunately" ? Regle
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Pigeons
Rmventuri. I sent a message back to the Squadron by pigeon when I was shot down in 1943. In Dulag Luft a member of my Squadron said he had heard that I had sent the message home. I assume he had heard it from the Snaith Pigeon Corporal, John Hall who, years later, told me had retrieved my pigeon with its message. No mention of it was made to our families.
A bomb-aimer from my crew, was sick and was shot down with another crew two weeks later. He stayed with the Resistance for fourteen months. I have seen a copy of a message, sent by radio, to say he was alive and well, but this was never conveyed to his family. He was posted Missing believed killed, and the King sent a message of condolences to his father!
A bomb-aimer from my crew, was sick and was shot down with another crew two weeks later. He stayed with the Resistance for fourteen months. I have seen a copy of a message, sent by radio, to say he was alive and well, but this was never conveyed to his family. He was posted Missing believed killed, and the King sent a message of condolences to his father!
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Bakedwell ....I have a friend.....
.....who is the Goddaughter of Herman Goering. I think that it is a good time to start a "line " book in this Forum and that is a good start to it. I am sure that many of you will not know what a line book is so I await some examples. "The flak was so heavy that we put the wheels down and taxied on it " springs to mind and ,possibly , makes further explanations unnecessary. Regle
Regle, all I am prepared to say on a public forum is that she is the same age as me and was borne near Cologne. Her christian name is Renate and she is married to a (retired) BA Captain. I could add another entry to the Line Book: "I also have a good friend with a stepbrother (surname von Mellenthin), who is the Godson of Adolph H!" You can google that 
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Training in the U.K
FRED.
Excellent, keep it going. we want to hear about training in the U.K . We have had plenty of posts on the training in Canada. and the U.S of A. and hope we will get many more, but very little on other areas.
Excellent, keep it going. we want to hear about training in the U.K . We have had plenty of posts on the training in Canada. and the U.S of A. and hope we will get many more, but very little on other areas.
Mention of Göring and Hitler reminds me of the comment allegedly made by Hitler at some dinner, when der dicke Hermann was seen stuffing his greedy face with Schweinehachse:
"It is true. Pigs really do eat their own".
One gets the impression that the fat Reichsmarschall Göring was probably more tolerated than trusted by Hitler.
My only acquaintance with people from that background was meeting the son of an infamous Nazi. A charming old gent, about whom the statement "Don't visit the sins of the father on the son" was never more true.
His father was a real swine though. SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, Deputy Reich-Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and one of the chief architects of the holocaust.
"It is true. Pigs really do eat their own".
One gets the impression that the fat Reichsmarschall Göring was probably more tolerated than trusted by Hitler.
My only acquaintance with people from that background was meeting the son of an infamous Nazi. A charming old gent, about whom the statement "Don't visit the sins of the father on the son" was never more true.
His father was a real swine though. SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, Deputy Reich-Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and one of the chief architects of the holocaust.
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Getting There ?????
EH BY GUM (As in Gosh) . He says these ex Luftwaffe chaps are 'High in the eighties but O.K. .
th February 2010, 16:42
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Cliff
ich glaube ich kann Ihnen mit 2 Adressen dienen.
Christoph Dezius
Kirchnebenstr. 22
65375 Oestrich-Winkel
06723-87422
ehemals Ltn. im JG 2
Heinz Borgmann
Mainz-Gonsenheim
Oranienhof
06131 - 9711940
ehermals Bordfunker im NJG 4
Beide sind hoch in den Achtzigern, aber geistig noch ganz ok.
Gruß Rüdiger
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Karsten Viel Dank. muss schreiben, da ich nicht das gute Deutsche sehr spreche. Ich bin 87 Jahre alt auch. Wissen Sie, wenn sie viel Englisch sprechen., ich konnten sie telefonieren Respekt Klippe = (CLIFF)
th February 20
th February 2010, 16:42
Karsten Karsten is offline
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Cliff
ich glaube ich kann Ihnen mit 2 Adressen dienen.
Christoph Dezius
Kirchnebenstr. 22
65375 Oestrich-Winkel
06723-87422
ehemals Ltn. im JG 2
Heinz Borgmann
Mainz-Gonsenheim
Oranienhof
06131 - 9711940
ehermals Bordfunker im NJG 4
Beide sind hoch in den Achtzigern, aber geistig noch ganz ok.
Gruß Rüdiger
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Karsten Viel Dank. muss schreiben, da ich nicht das gute Deutsche sehr spreche. Ich bin 87 Jahre alt auch. Wissen Sie, wenn sie viel Englisch sprechen., ich konnten sie telefonieren Respekt Klippe = (CLIFF)
th February 20
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WW2 Pilot training in the UK, continued
It seems that pupils in America had one instructor throughout the course.
I flew with five instructors, plus the CFI for the final check at EFTS.
With three other pupils I was allocated to Sgt. Barton, probably the best instructor at the school. A pre-war Regular Officer, he had objected to being transferred to the Fleet Air Arm and had resigned his commission. At that time the RAF would only admit him as a Sgt. but he got his commission back later on. After one week, Barton was Absent Sick and his pupils were left in limbo with no instructor. It was only after another week that other Instructors took pity on us and all four took us flying in turn, - but they each had to go over the exercises we had done before. At eight hours I was pronounced “fit for solo,” but the next instructor wanted to see “what I could do.” Barton returned and sent me Solo the following day.
At half way into the six week course his pupils had only 20 hours out of the 50 required, so we were put back “half a course.” We finished ground school on time and so managed to get extra hours in the air in the last three weeks. I finished EFTS with 35 hours dual and 33 hours Solo.
Two pupils flew in the morning while the other two had ground instruction. The following day this was reversed. In a lesson on navigation a young Danish officer, Sub Lieutenant Pedersen, appeared by my side. He watched me draw a line on my chart then took my pencil from me and drew a much fainter line. “Don’t press. Let the pencil do the work. Much easier to rub out without leaving a mess on your chart.”
I knew Pederson had flown a Hornet Moth from Denmark but it was many years before I found the full story.
Sub-Lieutenant Sneum had found the Moth stripped down in a barn in Denmark. The farmer agreed to sell, “provided it went West.” Sneum recruited Pedersen, and De Havilland’s agent in Denmark provided the plans to rebuild the Moth. They ran the engine once then prepared to take off at dawn. In flight Sneum refuelled the side tank by leaning out with a petrol can and a funnel. Pederson flew from the right hand seat while hanging onto Sneum with his left hand. Full stories are in Google.
Pedersen went on to fly Spitfires and Typhoons, but Sneum returned by parachute to Denmark to carry on his spying activities. Neither was decorated by Britain or Denmark. Fred
P.S How do I find a members' E-mail address?
I flew with five instructors, plus the CFI for the final check at EFTS.
With three other pupils I was allocated to Sgt. Barton, probably the best instructor at the school. A pre-war Regular Officer, he had objected to being transferred to the Fleet Air Arm and had resigned his commission. At that time the RAF would only admit him as a Sgt. but he got his commission back later on. After one week, Barton was Absent Sick and his pupils were left in limbo with no instructor. It was only after another week that other Instructors took pity on us and all four took us flying in turn, - but they each had to go over the exercises we had done before. At eight hours I was pronounced “fit for solo,” but the next instructor wanted to see “what I could do.” Barton returned and sent me Solo the following day.
At half way into the six week course his pupils had only 20 hours out of the 50 required, so we were put back “half a course.” We finished ground school on time and so managed to get extra hours in the air in the last three weeks. I finished EFTS with 35 hours dual and 33 hours Solo.
Two pupils flew in the morning while the other two had ground instruction. The following day this was reversed. In a lesson on navigation a young Danish officer, Sub Lieutenant Pedersen, appeared by my side. He watched me draw a line on my chart then took my pencil from me and drew a much fainter line. “Don’t press. Let the pencil do the work. Much easier to rub out without leaving a mess on your chart.”
I knew Pederson had flown a Hornet Moth from Denmark but it was many years before I found the full story.
Sub-Lieutenant Sneum had found the Moth stripped down in a barn in Denmark. The farmer agreed to sell, “provided it went West.” Sneum recruited Pedersen, and De Havilland’s agent in Denmark provided the plans to rebuild the Moth. They ran the engine once then prepared to take off at dawn. In flight Sneum refuelled the side tank by leaning out with a petrol can and a funnel. Pederson flew from the right hand seat while hanging onto Sneum with his left hand. Full stories are in Google.
Pedersen went on to fly Spitfires and Typhoons, but Sneum returned by parachute to Denmark to carry on his spying activities. Neither was decorated by Britain or Denmark. Fred
P.S How do I find a members' E-mail address?
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fredjhh,
If you wish to contact a forum member, simply click on the user name next to their post. This will give several options, one of which is "send a private message". A private message or PM is similar to a normal post, but received only by the intended recipient. The recipient is notified of a new PM when visiting the forum and (I believe) by email.
There is also an option to email. This will go directly to the address they have registered with the pprune forum and you do not need to know it beforehand.
I am enjoying your posts, by the way.
Hope this is of some help.
If you wish to contact a forum member, simply click on the user name next to their post. This will give several options, one of which is "send a private message". A private message or PM is similar to a normal post, but received only by the intended recipient. The recipient is notified of a new PM when visiting the forum and (I believe) by email.
There is also an option to email. This will go directly to the address they have registered with the pprune forum and you do not need to know it beforehand.
I am enjoying your posts, by the way.
Hope this is of some help.
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Pilot training in UK, WW2
The Brooklands Flying Club was also the home of The Metropolitan Police and the London Transport Flying Club, and several of their members were retained as Instructors.
The Chief instructor at the airfield was made a Squadron Leader then, later, a Wing Commander. Wing Commander Arthur stayed on flying at Fairoaks well after the age of 80.
Ground instruction was given by retired officers as civilians. There was virtually no drill or parades and we lived in one two local manor houses. I was billeted in Stanners Hill Manor and we dined in the airfield clubhouse. The dining rom was L shaped with the pupils in the larger end, and the instructors, Officers and NCOs, dining together in the shorter end. The food was good and served by civilian mess waiters.
Armament instruction was in the hands of a retired Chief Petty Officer “Billy” Bishop. With a large cheerful face and a mass of white hair, he looked a like Bishop until he opened his mouth when out came the filthiest stories we young innocents had ever heard. He was supposed to teach us the assembly of the Lewis Gun, but he was full of reminiscences of World War One when he flew as an Observer. He told us of using a Service revolver or a Lee Enfield rifle from the rear cock-pit in air fighting, and dropping bombs by hand over the side onto Constantinople.
One pupil already attached to our flight was Sgt. Charles P....... who spent his days in a deck chair, smoking exotic cigarettes in a long holder. Cadets were not allowed mechanical transport, but Charles had two cars and lived outside in a rented house.
The Flight Commander, F/Lt Cubitt, had difficulty starting his Austin 7 one day. Charles removed his cigarette holder and said, “Take my Buick, Sir.” “Thanks P.........” One day I asked him what his status was, and Charles said he was amassing 150 hours on Tiger Moths and would then go directly to an instructors’ school. I think he may have had a private pilot’s licence and have a been a Member of the Civil Air Guard. A year later I picked up a copy of “The Tatler” and saw a picture of Sgt. Charles P....... dining at The Lansdowne with the Honourable Lady ......
I doubt If I would have got past the doorman in my Sergeant’s stripes!
The Chief instructor at the airfield was made a Squadron Leader then, later, a Wing Commander. Wing Commander Arthur stayed on flying at Fairoaks well after the age of 80.
Ground instruction was given by retired officers as civilians. There was virtually no drill or parades and we lived in one two local manor houses. I was billeted in Stanners Hill Manor and we dined in the airfield clubhouse. The dining rom was L shaped with the pupils in the larger end, and the instructors, Officers and NCOs, dining together in the shorter end. The food was good and served by civilian mess waiters.
Armament instruction was in the hands of a retired Chief Petty Officer “Billy” Bishop. With a large cheerful face and a mass of white hair, he looked a like Bishop until he opened his mouth when out came the filthiest stories we young innocents had ever heard. He was supposed to teach us the assembly of the Lewis Gun, but he was full of reminiscences of World War One when he flew as an Observer. He told us of using a Service revolver or a Lee Enfield rifle from the rear cock-pit in air fighting, and dropping bombs by hand over the side onto Constantinople.
One pupil already attached to our flight was Sgt. Charles P....... who spent his days in a deck chair, smoking exotic cigarettes in a long holder. Cadets were not allowed mechanical transport, but Charles had two cars and lived outside in a rented house.
The Flight Commander, F/Lt Cubitt, had difficulty starting his Austin 7 one day. Charles removed his cigarette holder and said, “Take my Buick, Sir.” “Thanks P.........” One day I asked him what his status was, and Charles said he was amassing 150 hours on Tiger Moths and would then go directly to an instructors’ school. I think he may have had a private pilot’s licence and have a been a Member of the Civil Air Guard. A year later I picked up a copy of “The Tatler” and saw a picture of Sgt. Charles P....... dining at The Lansdowne with the Honourable Lady ......
I doubt If I would have got past the doorman in my Sergeant’s stripes!