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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

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Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

Old 6th Feb 2010, 22:40
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Thank you for your advice. I have sent a message to Regle. We will see if he finds it. Fredjhh.
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 23:11
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Pilot training in UK, WW2

My first two lessons on the Tiger Moth were of 20 minutes, described as Air Experience, and 30 minutes where I was allowed to handle the controls. Next came 45 minutes when Barton asked me if my seat harness was tight. Then he inverted the Moth and I fell out! Well it seemed as if I did, but it was only about half an inch. He told me to tighten up and then proceeded to do every aerobatic in the book, - and some of his own invention; loops, half rolls of the top, slow rolls, inverted glides, tail slides, stall turns, and spins. He finished up with the falling leaf when, despite the tighter belt, I did feel i was being flung out.
When we landed, he said, “ What did you like best?” I said, “ Stall turns and slow rolls, Sir.” “Not Sir, I am a Sergeant. You’ll do.”
I continued to address him as Sir, in the air. One or two pupils were very sick and had to clean out the rear cock-pit, as prescribed by the unofficial law, "Those who make it, clean it." They were given the same test later and some continued to fly, but some were still sick and were scrubbed.
I noticed in an earlier post the “Mary Pickford” mnenomic before starting. Barton taught me T, M, P, F, F, S; and U, M, P, F, T, S before landing and said it would serve for any aircraft.
Our flying zone was between Windsor Castle and the river Thames to the North, and the Vickers Factory at Weybridge to the South, from which barrage balloons flew above the lower clouds and made a good homing point. The intricate pattern of fields below made it essential to learn the local map in detail.
My worst experience in the Moth came when I was preparing to do some aerobatics above the clouds at 5,000ft. I had a good look all round then started a loop. As I pulled up after the loop a Spitfire dived down just ahead of me and I hit his slip stream. My aircraft was thrown onto its back and then into a spin, - very disconcerting. The Spitfire was probably practising an attack and did not think about the effect on my light aeroplane.
Many of the Moths had small bomb racks fitted and, once a month, the Instructors had dive bombing practice with 11 lb smoke bombs on the Pill Box on the airfield. In the event of a German invasion they were supposed to attack the invasion barges with small explosive bombs! The nearest point on the coast was about 40 miles away, but it would have been a one-way ticket!
One day I arrived at the Flight hut at 7-30 and F/Lt Cubitt told me to have an aircraft started up, “To do a weather check.” Once airborne he told me to fly over The Hog’s Back. He cut the engine and said, “ Forced landing! Put me down in that field to the left with the hay stack.” I landed and I was told to turn back ready for take off. Then Cubitt jumped out and said, “I will only be a minute or two,” and proceeded to fill a bag with mushrooms.
When I went to the mess for breakfast at 9-00, a waiter appeared at my side with a large plate of cooked mushrooms. “ Mr H.........d ? With F/Lt Cubitt’s compliments, Sir.”
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 14:43
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Chivalry existed 65 years ago

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Old 8th Feb 2010, 15:45
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Fighter or Bomber pilot?

Reg as you know always pokes fun at me for having more fighter books than bomber books.

So I was just reading my latest "Battle of Britain" book and came across this.

errr I think I would rather be a fighter pilot when I grow up?
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Old 8th Feb 2010, 17:45
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errr I think I would rather be a fighter pilot when I grow up?
You can't do both!
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 08:51
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Not sure how to take your comment Beagle, I was hoping to lighten up the discussion?
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 09:05
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It was the response given by an American fighter pilot to some little lad who said that he wanted to be a fighter pilot when he grew up.

"Son, you can't do both!"

Quite well known in aircrew circles.
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 09:06
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andy It's a joke. A very old one at that. Or am I missing something?
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 10:56
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...goes with the long WW2 poem about different types of aircrew that contains the lines:

"You can tell a navigator by his maps and charts and such
You can tell a fighter pilot - but you can't tell him much!"

(Cliff [or anyone], do you know the whole poem? Love to see it here in its entirety.)
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 13:35
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Fighter pilots? Found this on the web...

Fighter Pilot University: Fighter Pilot University
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 15:14
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Andy. re-read it.

I can see that the quotation could be misread as meaning that "you are too dim to become a fighter pilot but I am sure that it was meant to tell you that you could'nt become a fighter pilot and depend on growing older. That is the danger of these two edged quotations. Reg
Old 9th Feb 2010, 15:17
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Cliff will probably tell you that the original recipient of "you can't tell him much" referred to one of Trenchard's beloved "Brats". or Halton boys. Regle
Old 9th Feb 2010, 16:30
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On a 'fizzer' again, Glass House next. ?

Managed to obtain the addresses of a wartime Luftwaffe pilot, and a wireless operator ,but wil have to ring them as only addresses suplied.

These were obtained on 12 O/clock high, but as usual I 'rushed in where angels fear to tread'. I posted using the German language , when it should have been posted using English. They were quite polite and I apologized, so think everything is O.K.
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Hallo Karsten Viel Dank. muss schreiben, da ich nicht das gute Deutsche sehr spreche. Ich bin 87 Jahre alt auch. Wissen Sie, wenn sie viel Englisch sprechen., ich konnten sie telefonieren Respekt Klippe = (CLIFF)

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Please post in English. This is not a German language forum except where posting original texts.
Yes Reg the phrase was coined circa ? to 1939 , but they deserved it, they were the creme de la creme . They qualified in engines , airframes , electrics, in fact , everything to do with the aircraft..When the war started,
the trades were separated, and and the courses shortened.


I posted using the German language and evidently this is 'verboten'
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I think placing personal addresses in a public forum is not correct. Why not send them via private message? Just my opinion.

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but the questin was also made in german, so I have answerd in this language. It is more comfortable for me.

Mr.Borgmann was WOP in NJG 4
Mr. Dezius Pilot im JG 2

Gruß Rüdiger


Last edited by cliffnemo; 9th Feb 2010 at 16:43. Reason: LUFTWAFFE
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 16:36
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Google ... Songs, You can tell a navigator

You Can Tell a Fighter Pilot

(This score available as ABC, SongWright, PostScript, PNG, or PMW, or a MIDI file)
Pennywhistle notation and Dulcimer tab for this song is also available

You Can Tell a Fighter Pilot

By the ring around his eyeball
You can tell a bombardier;
You can tell a bomber pilot
By the spread around his rear,
You can tell a navigator
By his sextants, maps and such
You can tell a fighter jockey
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Old 9th Feb 2010, 18:15
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Pilot Training in WW2

At the end of the course I had logged 35 hours dual and 33 hours solo, with 8 hours on the Link Trainer, and we were posted to 14 SFTS at Cranfield. At Paddington the RTO said,
“14 SFTS are now at Lyneham. I know. I moved them two weeks ago!” So we entrained for Wootton Bassett.
Lyneham was a new grass field with a perimeter track, two hangars, new tarmac roads and temporary buildings, surrounded by a sea of yellow mud. We were in billets dotted around in fields, mostly with cattle which had churned the mud by the field gate to a depth of over a foot. We wore wellingtons most of the time, no parades, and carried our shoes out to the Oxfords to put on inside the aircraft. The wellingtons were put in sacks in the rear.
We rarely wore Flying Boots which were of black leather with green canvas inserts at the sides; the best flying boots we ever wore.
The billets were on either side of a corridor with two beds in a room. There was no electricity, but paraffin lamps with a weekly oil allowance which gave us about one hour a night, so we had to buy candles. Each room had a little coal stove but a very miserly coal ration, so raids on the coal dump became quite common. One cold water tap per site had been left in the ditch, so we usually shaved there to avoid the crowds in the ablutions on camp. There was only the overcrowded NAFFI in which to sit in the evening, so stayed in the huts where we could brew up, with plenty of milk from the cows nearby. We rarely moved off the camp, except on a day off when we hitched into Calne.
The previous course greeted us with, “for the first two weeks we had sausage meat at every meal, - except on the second Friday lunch, when we had sausages!” A very famous sausage factory was nearby in Calne.
Two static Airspeed Oxfords were jacked up in a hangar and here we had intensive exercises, in every aspect and emergency of flying. A final test, blindfolded, of 15 exercises had to be passed before being taken out to the aircraft for the first flight.
My instructor was a young Australian, P/O Wheaton. We taxied out to take -off and Wheaton said, “First check there are no aircraft in the circuit or the landing approach.”
I looked to my left and said, “One Oxford on the approach, NO! TWO, “ and at that moment the second Oxford ploughed into the first. There was a shower of what looked like falling leaves, then both aircraft fell on to the other side of the peri track, killing all four on board.
We had no radio, just one Gosport Tube so the instructor could speak to his pupil. but not the other way round. The pupil just shouted when necessary.
Wheaton said, “Turn into wind and line up for take off. Now open the throttles gently, counter-acting any swing.” So we took off, but there was no longer a Fire wagon nor an Ambulance.
Quite illegal, but who argues with his instructor?
We settled down to a 3 month course of twin engine flying, with 50 hours dual and 50 hours solo with 8 night landings. fredjhh
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Old 11th Feb 2010, 21:34
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Quotation......After seeing two Oxfords fall out of the sky on the approach,whilst you were waiting for takeoff, you took off making sure that you kept it nice and straight, without any comment to your Instructor... Fred you are a man out of my own heart.. I would like to bet that the Gestapo got nothing out of you and were glad to see you back in your own cell ! I am proud to have been in the same Squadron, Reg
Old 11th Feb 2010, 21:48
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I forgot to bring to your notice a bit of "gen" concerning your story of the Danish Pilot who flew a Hornet Moth back to England.. At the time it rang a bell in my creaking mind... I had read, about a year ago, a book by Ken Follet and think that it was called "The flight of the Hornet Moth " and it was a very good yarn which must have been based on your character. As there is more than one Follet and I am not sure of the title perhaps someone else can enlighten us. It was very well written with very authentic details and very much "with it" with details of Occupied Denmark and the virtual rebuilding of the Hornet Moth which was rotting in a barn. I am sure that I got it from my local library so it is still in print and well worth reading. regle
Old 11th Feb 2010, 22:40
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Google search on the title you quoted revealed the following at Amazon.co.uk
  • Paperback: 300 pages
  • Publisher: Pan General Fiction; New edition edition (2 May 2003)
  • Language English
  • ISBN-10: 0330490680
  • ISBN-13: 978-0330490689
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Old 11th Feb 2010, 23:36
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This thread only gets better..

Given the wonderful contributions of Cliff and Regle, we now have fredjhh as well. This is amazing stuff, and I have yet to enjoy the recollections of the chap flying that beast of a Typhoon.

Thanks to you all and please keep it up.

Regle: here is a Wiki link I found about 'Shrage Musik'

Schräge Musik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- interesting to note that apparently in early 1944 a German night-ace with 61 'victories' bought it when a Halifax he shot up fell directly onto his HE 219.

And fredjhh: interesting that you first flew from Ainsdale sands. I live not too far away from there, and the first flight I ever took in a light aircraft (Cessna) was from that very strip in about 1990. I was not flying it, it was a short jolly for my young sons at the time. Somebody was doing short pleasure trips from there, an 'hours building' young pilot as I recall.

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Old 12th Feb 2010, 07:49
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...one of Trenchard's beloved "Brats".
If he loved us so much, he had a very strange way of showing it.
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