Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
An Acting Pilot Officer is a commissioned rank, whereas a Midshipman is not. - John Eacott
Well, John, please try these two links for size
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...es%27_officers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...orces_officers
and pan down to the UK to see who is an OF-1 and who is an OF(D).
Incidentally, I rather fancy the Polish and Portuguese Navy insignia whereby Captains can masquerade as Admirals and Portuguese Coronels (Group Captains) can pretend to be Air Chief Marshals.....
I'll never forgive myself for saluting and calling a Portuguese Commander "Sir" when the "Desgraçado" was actually junior to me!
Jack
Well, John, please try these two links for size
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...es%27_officers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_...orces_officers
and pan down to the UK to see who is an OF-1 and who is an OF(D).
Incidentally, I rather fancy the Polish and Portuguese Navy insignia whereby Captains can masquerade as Admirals and Portuguese Coronels (Group Captains) can pretend to be Air Chief Marshals.....
I'll never forgive myself for saluting and calling a Portuguese Commander "Sir" when the "Desgraçado" was actually junior to me!
Jack
I have always been amazed at the decision to allow WRNS to go to sea as part of a ship's company. At one stroke their Lordships must have put the teeth on edge of every Naval Wife. These had long been resigned to having their husbands disappear for months at a time, secure in the knowledge that they were safe from the (conventional) temptations of the flesh while boxed up in a floating steel monastery; now all that was at hazard. - Danny
I couldn't agree more, Danny, and expressed my views very strongly and, whilst the ladies always seemed able to cope with the the concept of a "wife in every port", or what the French call being "un celibateur geographique" aka a "geographical bachelor", I know that the idea of having females at sea introduced a whole new dimension to the problem. The United States Navy have had considerable problems with the concept and, having also had some submarine experience, I have to say that having females at sea in submarines has well and truly raised my eyebrows.
No doubt the WRENs enjoyed it (and EQUALIY had been achieved !), but had I been the First Sea Lord (which, having regard to the safety of the Realm, thank the Lord I'm not, Sir), a wicked grin would have appeared on my weatherbeaten cheeks. - Danny
Of course they have, for precisely the reasons you say, and the good ones have been really good, but I suppose that I must accept that I am still just that little bit too old-fashioned (in the nicest sense) to feel wholly comfortable with the concept.
Why not select one frigate or corvette, and crew it with only females (from Captain to ship's cat) ? How popular would service in such a floating nunnery be ? Then we would see what the real draw was: Life on the Open Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar ? - Danny
An intriguing prospect to say the least and, whilst it would not have been possible at the outset, it would theoretically be possible now that the appropriate levels of training have been achieved, but as they used to say when considering stopping the tot, or daily rum ration, "But not whilst I'm First Sea Lord"!
Jack (not Jacqueline)
I couldn't agree more, Danny, and expressed my views very strongly and, whilst the ladies always seemed able to cope with the the concept of a "wife in every port", or what the French call being "un celibateur geographique" aka a "geographical bachelor", I know that the idea of having females at sea introduced a whole new dimension to the problem. The United States Navy have had considerable problems with the concept and, having also had some submarine experience, I have to say that having females at sea in submarines has well and truly raised my eyebrows.
No doubt the WRENs enjoyed it (and EQUALIY had been achieved !), but had I been the First Sea Lord (which, having regard to the safety of the Realm, thank the Lord I'm not, Sir), a wicked grin would have appeared on my weatherbeaten cheeks. - Danny
Of course they have, for precisely the reasons you say, and the good ones have been really good, but I suppose that I must accept that I am still just that little bit too old-fashioned (in the nicest sense) to feel wholly comfortable with the concept.
Why not select one frigate or corvette, and crew it with only females (from Captain to ship's cat) ? How popular would service in such a floating nunnery be ? Then we would see what the real draw was: Life on the Open Wave - or Jolly Jack Tar ? - Danny
An intriguing prospect to say the least and, whilst it would not have been possible at the outset, it would theoretically be possible now that the appropriate levels of training have been achieved, but as they used to say when considering stopping the tot, or daily rum ration, "But not whilst I'm First Sea Lord"!
Jack (not Jacqueline)
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Ahem, UJ ... can you not master the use of the "Quote" button?
Tutorials are available by PM at a small fee
Tutorials are available by PM at a small fee
Union Jack; did you read my post about the rank status at the time of the photo? As with MPN11 I was an HSP entrant and went through the system as both a Cadet and a Midshipman, I did manage to learn the status of my ranks before the advent of Wiki
And MPN11 has beat me to it, but could you please stop using bold instead of quote? Most others seem quite capable of working it out
And MPN11 has beat me to it, but could you please stop using bold instead of quote? Most others seem quite capable of working it out
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MPn11 (#8717) and Union Jack (#8718),
Thank you for steering me onto Page 237 (who is T8191 ? - #8191 on this Thread is a Post from Chugakug on another matter ?)
Found your Post about your TM troubles all right - but my reply a few Posts later is an anodyne affair. Now I can distinctly remember another Post in which I am much more critical about the Navy's handling of the affair (I used the words "shabbily treated" or something very close to it (the words "shabby" or "shabbily" were certainly used). Went a long way further on, and could not find it. Was it a PM - although I cannot find that around that time, either.
MPN11, you must remember that Post - any idea where it is ?
Puzzled Danny.
Thank you for steering me onto Page 237 (who is T8191 ? - #8191 on this Thread is a Post from Chugakug on another matter ?)
Found your Post about your TM troubles all right - but my reply a few Posts later is an anodyne affair. Now I can distinctly remember another Post in which I am much more critical about the Navy's handling of the affair (I used the words "shabbily treated" or something very close to it (the words "shabby" or "shabbily" were certainly used). Went a long way further on, and could not find it. Was it a PM - although I cannot find that around that time, either.
MPN11, you must remember that Post - any idea where it is ?
Puzzled Danny.
VMT MPN11 and JE for your thoughtfulness - I have always considered substance to be more important than style.
And a very happy birthday to you, John, confirming the date of your promotion to Sub Lieutenant on 13 June 1969.
Jack
And a very happy birthday to you, John, confirming the date of your promotion to Sub Lieutenant on 13 June 1969.
Jack
Last edited by Union Jack; 13th Jun 2016 at 22:26.
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Dear Puzzled Danny42C,
I too have searched with no result. A recent prune [oops] of my PMs may have deleted it, of course. No great matter ... moving on [to wherever this awesome Thread is going!].
I too have searched with no result. A recent prune [oops] of my PMs may have deleted it, of course. No great matter ... moving on [to wherever this awesome Thread is going!].
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Danny,
I tracked down that 'Mystery Vengeance' that had been mentioned earlier in this thread.
It, and it seems assorted bits of a couple of other airframes, is now in a collection of uncatalogued crates and boxes stored at HARS
(Historical Aircraft Restoration Society) at Albion Park, a bit south of Sydney.
Apparently, the firm who'd planned to undertake the restoration went into liquidation and so HARS stepped into the breach to recover the lot, transport it to Sydney
and securely store it at their premises.
While I'd seen a photo of it (looking reasonably complete) at its previous location, the chap I spoke to today told me that the whole lot is "a bit of a mess"
and it'll take quite a while to even work out what's there and what's not.
No serial numbers are available at this stage.
Manuals and parts catalogues are going to be a bit hard to find too, I'd reckon.
In the meantime, they've got their hands full with the restorations of a P-38 Lightning and a P-47 Thunderbolt - both of which are well underway.
Thus, it would seem that Vengeance going to be sitting in boxes for the foreseeable.
Also, I expect to have an answer fairly soon on your question (post #8656) re that photo of the Vengeance instrument panel which appeared in post #8651.
Stay tuned.
I tracked down that 'Mystery Vengeance' that had been mentioned earlier in this thread.
It, and it seems assorted bits of a couple of other airframes, is now in a collection of uncatalogued crates and boxes stored at HARS
(Historical Aircraft Restoration Society) at Albion Park, a bit south of Sydney.
Apparently, the firm who'd planned to undertake the restoration went into liquidation and so HARS stepped into the breach to recover the lot, transport it to Sydney
and securely store it at their premises.
While I'd seen a photo of it (looking reasonably complete) at its previous location, the chap I spoke to today told me that the whole lot is "a bit of a mess"
and it'll take quite a while to even work out what's there and what's not.
No serial numbers are available at this stage.
Manuals and parts catalogues are going to be a bit hard to find too, I'd reckon.
In the meantime, they've got their hands full with the restorations of a P-38 Lightning and a P-47 Thunderbolt - both of which are well underway.
Thus, it would seem that Vengeance going to be sitting in boxes for the foreseeable.
Also, I expect to have an answer fairly soon on your question (post #8656) re that photo of the Vengeance instrument panel which appeared in post #8651.
Stay tuned.
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Gentlemen,
This incomparable Thread has always been a Broad Church, and no discouraging word should ever be heard in this our Crewroom in Cyberspace. So if Jack prefers to lend emphasis to his quotations by using Bold instead of "boxes" (which, I'm sure, he's well able to do), then "whatever floats his boat" is OK by me. And it is a great help to those of us whose eyesight is not what it once was !
Apologies to our long-suffering Moderators for trespassing on their turf.
Danny42C.
This incomparable Thread has always been a Broad Church, and no discouraging word should ever be heard in this our Crewroom in Cyberspace. So if Jack prefers to lend emphasis to his quotations by using Bold instead of "boxes" (which, I'm sure, he's well able to do), then "whatever floats his boat" is OK by me. And it is a great help to those of us whose eyesight is not what it once was !
Apologies to our long-suffering Moderators for trespassing on their turf.
Danny42C.
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MPN11,
Following my #8726, I suppose we must accept that my earlier Post has "gone with the wind", for I certainly did not delete it. However, I will do my best from memory, for I do not intend to leave this alone.
As I recall you saying, the sequence of events was (roughly) this: You had accumulated 100+ hours on some modern nosewheel light airctaft and got a PPL on the way. Then you applied to the Navy: they started you on the Tiger Moth.Not surprisingly you struggled, they were unsympathetic, did not give you a second chance or another Instructor, but chopped you......... Is that a fair summary ?
I had flown Stearman, Vultee Valiant, Harvard, Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Vultee Vengeance and P-47 Thunderbolt, gone out for three years, come back, flew Harvard and Spitfire again, then Meteor (15 hrs) to a total of some 700 hours. Then they gave me a Tiger Moth - I had Hell's own job with it and made a right mess of it! (the flying, not the Tiger) - the 15 hours nosewheel on the Meteor had "converted" me from 700 hours tail-dragging.
(Geriaviator, who has owned Tigers and has a lot of time in them, told us [in a Post] that all FJs had trouble with their first Tiger. Why not - it is 'one of a kind', after all).
So what chance did you have, with only nosewheel experience, starting on a Tiger ? Paradoxically, it would have been far better for you if you had done no flying at all (as would have been the case with nearly all your classmates).
If the facts are as I have outlined, then I say that the Navy had treated you shabbily, and I would stand by that. Luckily, the Light Blue knew a good man when they saw one.
Why not ? (I might even put in a word from time to time).
Danny.
Following my #8726, I suppose we must accept that my earlier Post has "gone with the wind", for I certainly did not delete it. However, I will do my best from memory, for I do not intend to leave this alone.
...... despite having a PPL, I admit I did not do terribly well during Flying Grading...
I had flown Stearman, Vultee Valiant, Harvard, Master, Hurricane, Spitfire, Vultee Vengeance and P-47 Thunderbolt, gone out for three years, come back, flew Harvard and Spitfire again, then Meteor (15 hrs) to a total of some 700 hours. Then they gave me a Tiger Moth - I had Hell's own job with it and made a right mess of it! (the flying, not the Tiger) - the 15 hours nosewheel on the Meteor had "converted" me from 700 hours tail-dragging.
(Geriaviator, who has owned Tigers and has a lot of time in them, told us [in a Post] that all FJs had trouble with their first Tiger. Why not - it is 'one of a kind', after all).
So what chance did you have, with only nosewheel experience, starting on a Tiger ? Paradoxically, it would have been far better for you if you had done no flying at all (as would have been the case with nearly all your classmates).
If the facts are as I have outlined, then I say that the Navy had treated you shabbily, and I would stand by that. Luckily, the Light Blue knew a good man when they saw one.
...I really should start a Thread about "Gaining an ATCO's Certificate of Competency post-WW2"...
Danny.
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Danny, you flatter my logbook! Apart from a bit of Air Cadet (CCF and ATC) Experience, my PPL represented 30h 15m [of which 10h 10m solo].
However, I will agree that having that nose wheel time meant that I was doing a tail-dragger conversion course with a ranting and unhelpful Instructor. But then the other guys managed [indeed, a couple were sent solo] so I have no excuse ... except my inability to land a TM
However, I will agree that having that nose wheel time meant that I was doing a tail-dragger conversion course with a ranting and unhelpful Instructor. But then the other guys managed [indeed, a couple were sent solo] so I have no excuse ... except my inability to land a TM
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Will some kind billionaire please step forward.,
Stanwell (#8729),
Thank you for the 'gen' on this latest "resurrection" project. I know there are no details, but do they at least know whether they've got bits of Mk.IVs or I-II-IIIs ? Please keep us all posted on this if they get around to starting on the jigsaw puzzle.
I think now that the Camden panel is a 'bitsa' IMHO.
There are half a dozen buried perfect specimens they could dig up out of the Greenland Icecap. Our American friends know where they are, for they've exhumed one already, and it's flying around. Apparently, the keys are on the cockpit seats where they were left when they were abandoned in WWII !
Danny.
Thank you for the 'gen' on this latest "resurrection" project. I know there are no details, but do they at least know whether they've got bits of Mk.IVs or I-II-IIIs ? Please keep us all posted on this if they get around to starting on the jigsaw puzzle.
I think now that the Camden panel is a 'bitsa' IMHO.
...In the meantime, they've got their hands full with the restorations of a P-38 Lightning...
Danny.
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Apparently, the keys are on the cockpit seats where they were left when they were abandoned in WWII !
My rental cars tend to have them under the sun visor!
Danny & MPN11
Continuing the digression, with the Mods approval of course, - After I took my 8yr option and left the RAF I joined CAA as a trainee ATCO, a natural progression for many navigators. In fact when I joined aged 27 just about every ATCO over 30 was ex-military aircrew, mainly navs and signallers/AEOs but with a fair sprinkling of pilots and all those over 50 were ex-WW2 aircrew.
Foolishly, many of us thought that you couldn't really be a good controller without aircrew experience - in fact the recruitment of cadets mainly straight from 'the street' in the last 40 or so years has proved how wrong we were.
With unusual foresight the Civil Service had forecast that the end of national service would eventually lead to the military source all but drying up ( to train as aircrew, national service men were eventually required to sign on for up to 5 years as that at least repaid some of the cost of flying training ! ) so in about 1963 they introduced their own cadet scheme - the 2 ways of becoming an ATCO ran side by side for about 10 years.
For many years the upper age limit to enter training was under 35, but about 1990 the CAA found it was short of ATCOs,( having thought it had a surplus 5 years before!! ) and sponsored 3 or 4 courses of ex-military ATCOs and assistants at Dundridge College near Exeter. IIRC we had about 8 come to Heathrow and the pass rate was about 50%, these all being young fillies. The most notable example of a man who really didn't stand a chance, was that of a guy who had left the RAF at his 38 point, whose last tour had been as a trapper and previous tour to that, an instructor at Shawbury. He didn't stand a chance and it really was a stupid decision to post him to LHR.
Re going straight to Area from training, I don't think the civil world has had a particular problem except that to train at Swanwick I guess would take twice as long as most airfields. My son went that route in the late 90s and apart from a few weeks famil' at Brum has never looked out of a control tower. Very sad!
In fact I went the opposite route - after aerodrome training and validation at Brum I was posted to LATCC and hated the 'factory environment' in the middle of a council estate in West Drayton. In my 8 years in the RAF I had served at South Cerney, St Mawgan ( 2 weeks hold ), Gaydon, Stradishall, Thorney Island, Colerne, Changi, Fairford, Lyneham and Abingdon - all wonderful green places! I found the escape route was to volunteer for Stornaway ( ugh! ) after which I was posted to Boscombe Down and finally Heathrow. To my mind a control tower is the only place to be!
More digression - Union Jack -- one of my female colleagues at LHR married a matelot who had served at sea before the fairer sex were allowed aboard. He hated having Wrens aboard - he served on HMS Ocean and said that on his second tour the ship constantly smelt of Old Spice, as the boys were taking more care of their 'hygiene', there was less space as separate wash facilities had to be provided for the girls, and when the ship was being resupplied at sea only about 1 in 50 girls were strong enough to help catch and carry the heavy items such as bags of spuds.
Foolishly, many of us thought that you couldn't really be a good controller without aircrew experience - in fact the recruitment of cadets mainly straight from 'the street' in the last 40 or so years has proved how wrong we were.
With unusual foresight the Civil Service had forecast that the end of national service would eventually lead to the military source all but drying up ( to train as aircrew, national service men were eventually required to sign on for up to 5 years as that at least repaid some of the cost of flying training ! ) so in about 1963 they introduced their own cadet scheme - the 2 ways of becoming an ATCO ran side by side for about 10 years.
For many years the upper age limit to enter training was under 35, but about 1990 the CAA found it was short of ATCOs,( having thought it had a surplus 5 years before!! ) and sponsored 3 or 4 courses of ex-military ATCOs and assistants at Dundridge College near Exeter. IIRC we had about 8 come to Heathrow and the pass rate was about 50%, these all being young fillies. The most notable example of a man who really didn't stand a chance, was that of a guy who had left the RAF at his 38 point, whose last tour had been as a trapper and previous tour to that, an instructor at Shawbury. He didn't stand a chance and it really was a stupid decision to post him to LHR.
Re going straight to Area from training, I don't think the civil world has had a particular problem except that to train at Swanwick I guess would take twice as long as most airfields. My son went that route in the late 90s and apart from a few weeks famil' at Brum has never looked out of a control tower. Very sad!
In fact I went the opposite route - after aerodrome training and validation at Brum I was posted to LATCC and hated the 'factory environment' in the middle of a council estate in West Drayton. In my 8 years in the RAF I had served at South Cerney, St Mawgan ( 2 weeks hold ), Gaydon, Stradishall, Thorney Island, Colerne, Changi, Fairford, Lyneham and Abingdon - all wonderful green places! I found the escape route was to volunteer for Stornaway ( ugh! ) after which I was posted to Boscombe Down and finally Heathrow. To my mind a control tower is the only place to be!
More digression - Union Jack -- one of my female colleagues at LHR married a matelot who had served at sea before the fairer sex were allowed aboard. He hated having Wrens aboard - he served on HMS Ocean and said that on his second tour the ship constantly smelt of Old Spice, as the boys were taking more care of their 'hygiene', there was less space as separate wash facilities had to be provided for the girls, and when the ship was being resupplied at sea only about 1 in 50 girls were strong enough to help catch and carry the heavy items such as bags of spuds.
A very interesting post overall, Brian, although as a proud Scot, I didn't quite understand your point about about Stornoway....
Regarding the "Oceans of Old Spice" and Replenishment at Sea, dare one say,or perhaps just think, that that reflects more than an element of "QED"?
Jack
PS Apologies - my Bold button seems to be U/S
Regarding the "Oceans of Old Spice" and Replenishment at Sea, dare one say,or perhaps just think, that that reflects more than an element of "QED"?
Jack
PS Apologies - my Bold button seems to be U/S
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Jack and Brian,
Read somewhere that even the most radid feminist WREN acknowledged that, although they were an integral part of the Ship's Company, if there were (say) a fire in a ship's compartment, they would unceremoniously be bundled out of the way to let the matelots get in to fight it.
Brian,
A man after my own heart ! (MPN11, it's two to one) .
Danny.
Read somewhere that even the most radid feminist WREN acknowledged that, although they were an integral part of the Ship's Company, if there were (say) a fire in a ship's compartment, they would unceremoniously be bundled out of the way to let the matelots get in to fight it.
Brian,
...To my mind a control tower is the only place to be!...
Danny.
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Brian 48nav ... many interesting points in your #8735. If you weren't so coy about your age, we could discuss whether we have old colleagues in common!!
I was rejected for the civil Cadet Scheme in 1964, as the Civil Service Commission were insistent on A-levels and wouldn't budge. So I joined Min of Av as an ATCA III in May 64, whilst waiting for the ponderous wheels of RAF to get round to me visiting OASC [again]. I resigned in Dec 64 after an interesting 6 months at Southern Centre [as was], and donned the Light Blue suit in Jan 65.
PS: I loved doing Local too, but Mil (Area) is where the big boys get to play. The part-trained ATCOs don't know what they're missing
I was rejected for the civil Cadet Scheme in 1964, as the Civil Service Commission were insistent on A-levels and wouldn't budge. So I joined Min of Av as an ATCA III in May 64, whilst waiting for the ponderous wheels of RAF to get round to me visiting OASC [again]. I resigned in Dec 64 after an interesting 6 months at Southern Centre [as was], and donned the Light Blue suit in Jan 65.
PS: I loved doing Local too, but Mil (Area) is where the big boys get to play. The part-trained ATCOs don't know what they're missing
MPN11
A few weeks back both Danny and you, I think, were promoting display of users' ages for 'orientation' purposes. I explained I used to have my age displayed until a rabid poster, on ATC issues threads, took umbrage with my view on something and suggested I was a coffin-dodger, an expression I took in simple terms to mean that I ought to be dead. Would he have said that to my face? I don't know, but had I not been capable of smashing him in the face one of my sons ( 6'4" rugby playing test pilot and 6'3" ATCO ) could have obliged!
I am in fact 70 in September, joined the RAF in December '65, commissioned 1st April '66 ( Yes I know! ), first baby nav' to be posted to the new mighty Herc' which I absolutely loved and decided to take my 8 year option when faced with a ground tour. I could put up with all the BS and imposition of service life provided I was flying, but not otherwise - so hey ho I became a civvie.
If you PM me I'm sure you will know a lot of the ex-military ATCOs I came across - so to speak! In fact one summer evening at LHR a BA pilot said to me on Ground, "You sound happy ", I replied, " I'm the only man here working with 4 gorgeous female ATCOs and they're taking me for a beer afterwards ". 2 of them were ex-RAF.
Union Jack
No offence meant to the land of the heather, but Stornoway was something else. We did some great things there - I dug peat, grew oats, had a croft and met some really good folk, there are fantastic beaches, good birdwatching etc. Work was so boring that I became quite good at the Telegraph crossword! My poor kids suffered quite badly from anti-English abuse at school sadly - all character building I suppose.
I am in fact 70 in September, joined the RAF in December '65, commissioned 1st April '66 ( Yes I know! ), first baby nav' to be posted to the new mighty Herc' which I absolutely loved and decided to take my 8 year option when faced with a ground tour. I could put up with all the BS and imposition of service life provided I was flying, but not otherwise - so hey ho I became a civvie.
If you PM me I'm sure you will know a lot of the ex-military ATCOs I came across - so to speak! In fact one summer evening at LHR a BA pilot said to me on Ground, "You sound happy ", I replied, " I'm the only man here working with 4 gorgeous female ATCOs and they're taking me for a beer afterwards ". 2 of them were ex-RAF.
Union Jack
No offence meant to the land of the heather, but Stornoway was something else. We did some great things there - I dug peat, grew oats, had a croft and met some really good folk, there are fantastic beaches, good birdwatching etc. Work was so boring that I became quite good at the Telegraph crossword! My poor kids suffered quite badly from anti-English abuse at school sadly - all character building I suppose.
Perfectly understood, Brian, and no umbrage whatsoever - I understand that a long time in the Long Island could seem a long time, and I'm sorry to hear that your young, now not quite so young giants, should have been made to feel less than welcome there, especially when you had clearly integrated so well.
When in Scotland myself, I am sometimes subjected to something of the kind at a lower level but people soon back off when I tell them in their own local accent that a. that we're not all Billy Connollys and b. I am 100% Scottish and have probably been so longer than my "accuser"!
Jack (aka Jock)
When in Scotland myself, I am sometimes subjected to something of the kind at a lower level but people soon back off when I tell them in their own local accent that a. that we're not all Billy Connollys and b. I am 100% Scottish and have probably been so longer than my "accuser"!
Jack (aka Jock)