Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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Darky Procedure
I intend to remark on items, Majestic Hotel, Halifax film, and form 700 soon, but first of all will answer Dave/ Goosequil . (So much to do, and so little energy)
Dave, I append below four pages dealing with R.T procedure, but would point out, I think I did BRIEFLY deal with this subject before. However it is quite a tedious job searching in PPRuNe to see what has been written, so will give you all the 'gen' . I would also point out it was stressed to us, exactly the words as quoted below should be used, and in the correct order, otherwise the called station would not answer.
I notice I have canceled the reference to nemo on page one ,and later must have been instructed to use the aircraft letters.Nemo is referred to on page four. Oh well it must have been written on the black board (sorry about that, we didn't have white boards in those days). Does any one know why it was canceled ?. Possibly,I was as 'muxed ip ' then I was I am now.
Dave, I append below four pages dealing with R.T procedure, but would point out, I think I did BRIEFLY deal with this subject before. However it is quite a tedious job searching in PPRuNe to see what has been written, so will give you all the 'gen' . I would also point out it was stressed to us, exactly the words as quoted below should be used, and in the correct order, otherwise the called station would not answer.
I notice I have canceled the reference to nemo on page one ,and later must have been instructed to use the aircraft letters.Nemo is referred to on page four. Oh well it must have been written on the black board (sorry about that, we didn't have white boards in those days). Does any one know why it was canceled ?. Possibly,I was as 'muxed ip ' then I was I am now.
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HCU 1663 - uncanny!
Regle,
I am finally getting a chance to read this forum from the beginning and see that you were posted to HCU 1663 in May '43. Doug was posted at the same from May 25 to July 6 '43 then on to sqdn 51. Researching 1663 I noticed that 1663 participated in supporting some operations for spoof raids and also for mine laying exercises. Do you remember if any ops while in 1663 would count towards the 30 - I'm trying to count all of Doug's ops and only count 17 from Snaith (an additional 7 were aborted). Actually any specifics of what your responsibilities and activities were while at 1663 would be interesting.
Ciffnemo
So a night fighter would land/reload and go after the stream again? I noticed with the help of Icare9 that the same nightfigher pilot claimed four kills (all lancs) on the same Leipzig raid.
Tip: its a bit gnarly but if you want to search this forum to see what has been discussed in the past you can use google site search as follows;
enter the following in the google search field as you would normally followed by the search criteria (by using the keyword "site:" google will limit the search to this forum). In this example I am looking for any discussion on blenheim
site:www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11 blenheim
Regards,
Rodger
I am finally getting a chance to read this forum from the beginning and see that you were posted to HCU 1663 in May '43. Doug was posted at the same from May 25 to July 6 '43 then on to sqdn 51. Researching 1663 I noticed that 1663 participated in supporting some operations for spoof raids and also for mine laying exercises. Do you remember if any ops while in 1663 would count towards the 30 - I'm trying to count all of Doug's ops and only count 17 from Snaith (an additional 7 were aborted). Actually any specifics of what your responsibilities and activities were while at 1663 would be interesting.
Ciffnemo
Out of ammo
Tip: its a bit gnarly but if you want to search this forum to see what has been discussed in the past you can use google site search as follows;
enter the following in the google search field as you would normally followed by the search criteria (by using the keyword "site:" google will limit the search to this forum). In this example I am looking for any discussion on blenheim
site:www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11 blenheim
Regards,
Rodger
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Harrogate
Ciffnemo,
I am still catching up however I am interested in your time at Harrogate (excuse me if this has already been broached - if so I'll catch it as I continue catching up). I am also researching my father's service history and noted from his log book that after completing his BAT at Little Rissington he was stationed at Harrogate from July 3 to Aug 8 '42. Do you have any idea what he would be doing there other than waiting for his next assignment? After Harrogate he was then stationed at Turnberry 5 OTU.
Regards
Rodger
I am still catching up however I am interested in your time at Harrogate (excuse me if this has already been broached - if so I'll catch it as I continue catching up). I am also researching my father's service history and noted from his log book that after completing his BAT at Little Rissington he was stationed at Harrogate from July 3 to Aug 8 '42. Do you have any idea what he would be doing there other than waiting for his next assignment? After Harrogate he was then stationed at Turnberry 5 OTU.
Regards
Rodger
Rodger, I think those who were there will add any correction, but Bf109's or Fw190's generally didn't have radar so were hunting by sight after being directed to the bomber streams by ground controllers, flak or searchlights. The use of single seater fighters was a bit of a desperate measure. The pilots were hand picked bomber pilots with excellent navigational skills so they had a better chance of finding "patrol areas" (fighter boxes) from where they could be directed by ground radar to the bomber stream. This method was more susceptible to jamming by window or special operatives in Lancs broadcasting fake directions in German or by simply swamping their frequencies.
Once the fighter boxes had been identified by the RAF, Mosquito nightfighters could then pick them off while they were loitering awaiting direction.
By reason of limited range (and no doubt the strain of searching for bombers) they would be limited to one sortie as by the time they had landed, refuelled and rearmed the bomber stream would have moved out of range.
That's why larger aircraft such as the Bf110 and Ju88 nightfighter variants were used. They could carry a larger crew able to operate airborne radar. 3 pairs of eyes had a better chance of locating bombers as well as being directed into the stream and then picking up targets on their own radar. They could stay with the bomber stream for considerably longer, too.
The 4 kills in one night would have been on the one sortie (Paul Szameitat if I recall correctly, who took charge of the Staffel in early Jan 44 only to be shot down and killed 14th Jan 44). It wasn't always just the bombers that got shot down!!
Whilst I understand regle's remark about the fighter being out of ammo, I just wonder why HIS gunners didn't fire!! After all, to be out of ammo, some other poor souls had not been so fortunate, nor would others on another night. But that's rewriting history, it happened and thanks to that he's still here with us! No doubt soaking up the sun in Hellfire Corner!!
Once the fighter boxes had been identified by the RAF, Mosquito nightfighters could then pick them off while they were loitering awaiting direction.
By reason of limited range (and no doubt the strain of searching for bombers) they would be limited to one sortie as by the time they had landed, refuelled and rearmed the bomber stream would have moved out of range.
That's why larger aircraft such as the Bf110 and Ju88 nightfighter variants were used. They could carry a larger crew able to operate airborne radar. 3 pairs of eyes had a better chance of locating bombers as well as being directed into the stream and then picking up targets on their own radar. They could stay with the bomber stream for considerably longer, too.
The 4 kills in one night would have been on the one sortie (Paul Szameitat if I recall correctly, who took charge of the Staffel in early Jan 44 only to be shot down and killed 14th Jan 44). It wasn't always just the bombers that got shot down!!
Whilst I understand regle's remark about the fighter being out of ammo, I just wonder why HIS gunners didn't fire!! After all, to be out of ammo, some other poor souls had not been so fortunate, nor would others on another night. But that's rewriting history, it happened and thanks to that he's still here with us! No doubt soaking up the sun in Hellfire Corner!!
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Now where were we ?
Early January1949. We landed back from India in a very cold ,newly Socialist Britain and it was quite a shock to find that rationing was still in force for virtually everything including coal for heating and there was absolutely nothing that could be even faintly called a luxury to be found in the shops. Plus that there were queues for all the rationed goods and people joined a queue without even knowing what they were going to get at the end of their wait. Housing was impossible to find and we were lucky to be put up by my Wife's sister in her small flat in the, then, very desirable district of Peckham for a while and then we were very, very fortunate in obtaining a nice, almost luxurious, ground floor flat on a council estate in Clapham in Albion Ave, just off Wandsworth Rd.
There was only "Utility" Furniture to be had but we were grateful for anything and soon had the place cosy.. Before we had any living room furniture we installed our pride and joy.....an eight inch screen Pye, black and white television set. There were no colour transmissions yet in 1949. It was mounted on top of an old box and we were the only people around to have such a thing so we had every child in the neighbourhood watching Muffin the Mule, Bill and Ben, the flower pot men not forgetting "Little Weed ". Dora was expecting a baby in a couple of months and ir was important that I found a new job.
At the end of the war , Berlin was divided into zones. The Western zone occupied and administered by the USA, the UK and France and the Eastern zone by Russia. In July 1948 a new currency, the Deutschmark, was introduced into the Western zone and to Allied West Berlin to help to combat inflation and bring back prosperity to the beaten Nation. The USSR viewed this as an ominous threat and feared that this would bring the whole of Berlin including the Soviet Eastern zone under Capitalist Western influence. Stalin immediately closed down all road, rail and canal links from the Western half of Berlin to try and starve the people and therefore the western powers out of Berlin.
The Allied response was to fly every vital need of the West Berliners into the existing aerodromes of Tempelhof and, initially Gatow. The French had an unsuitable aerodrome at Tegel which in an unbelievably short time was turned into a vital part of the Airlift by German labourers including thousands of women. Gatow was thus enabled to continue as the British civilian passenger airfield but with certain supplies being flown in there as well.
From June 1948 until May 1949, the Allies flew 278,247 sorties and their planes delivered roughly, a total of over two million tonnes of supplies including clothing, medicine,coal, building material,petrol and diesel oil. It was calculated that there was a plane landing every three minutes of the day and night, week in week out.
According to reports, Stalin wqs shaken to the core by the magnitude and the skilled performance of the Western Powers in performing the fantastic operation throughout nearly a year and in every possible sort of weather.
He was shown that the Western Powers were not going to yield and opened up the links on the 11th. May 1948.
There is absolutely no doubt that the magnificent ,concerted effort of the allies had averted the very real nightmare reality of WW3. I am indebted to Colin Cruddas's terrific book "In Cobham's Company" for most of the foregoing introduction of "Der Luftbrucke" or "The Berlin Airlift" as I had the privilege of flying on it for the renowned pioneer of British Aviation, Sir Alan Cobham whose Company "Flight Refuelling " now known as "Cobhams" flew all the fuel oil and gasoline into Berlin during the Airlift.
As a boy I had been an eager spectator of the "Flying Circuses " that toured the country before the war. Alan Cobham and a Capt. Barnard were two of the main ones and the shows that they put on were wonderful and were always supported by crowds of air minded spectators. There would always be "a trip round Blackpool Tower for about seven shillings and sixpence and I can remember being a horrified spectator when the grand finale of one of the circuses which was a formation of aircraft including a three engined high wing monoplane and two or three biplanes over the town and there was a collision. Well over thirty years later, when I was a Captain in Sabena , we had a dinner party for some friends from EuroControl, the ATC set up in Brussels . I told them that I had been on the ground when I had seen the collision of two of these planes over Blackpool's Central Station and was amazed to hear one of the guests, my friend, Gordon Burch, say "I was a passenger in one of those planes, Reg ". He had been treated , by his Father, to a ride in one of the biplanes not concerned in the collision which caused a lot of fatalities and was newspaper headlines at the time.
To get back to the Berlin Airlift. Pilots, of course, were now flavour of the month as everyone with anything that could get off the ground was trying to get in on the Milk Cow that the Airlift was becoming. Don Bennet bought some Tudors, a chap called Bond bought a couple of Halifaxes , flew one himself and hired a crew for the other one. Silver City got in on it and I decided that I would contact "Flight Refuelling" because of my boyhood affinity with Sir Alan Cobham. Once again "Lady Luck" was riding with me when I went down to Tarrant Rushton for an interview with their Chief Pilot. I walked into the office and the chap behind the desk said "Hello Reg,. Long time no see." It was Tommy Marks, a fellow cadet from my training in Georgia in 1941 that was now Chief Pilot of "Flight Refuelling" . I had to take him up in one of their converted Lancastrians and I thought that I would show him a bit of the "limit flying" that we had used to teach at the EFS at Hullavington. I had just completed a steep turn with sixty degrees of bank and was preparing to stall it when he, rather hastily , said that he had seen enough and could I be ready to take a Lancastrian over to RAF Wunstorf tomorrow to join the airlift?
There was only "Utility" Furniture to be had but we were grateful for anything and soon had the place cosy.. Before we had any living room furniture we installed our pride and joy.....an eight inch screen Pye, black and white television set. There were no colour transmissions yet in 1949. It was mounted on top of an old box and we were the only people around to have such a thing so we had every child in the neighbourhood watching Muffin the Mule, Bill and Ben, the flower pot men not forgetting "Little Weed ". Dora was expecting a baby in a couple of months and ir was important that I found a new job.
At the end of the war , Berlin was divided into zones. The Western zone occupied and administered by the USA, the UK and France and the Eastern zone by Russia. In July 1948 a new currency, the Deutschmark, was introduced into the Western zone and to Allied West Berlin to help to combat inflation and bring back prosperity to the beaten Nation. The USSR viewed this as an ominous threat and feared that this would bring the whole of Berlin including the Soviet Eastern zone under Capitalist Western influence. Stalin immediately closed down all road, rail and canal links from the Western half of Berlin to try and starve the people and therefore the western powers out of Berlin.
The Allied response was to fly every vital need of the West Berliners into the existing aerodromes of Tempelhof and, initially Gatow. The French had an unsuitable aerodrome at Tegel which in an unbelievably short time was turned into a vital part of the Airlift by German labourers including thousands of women. Gatow was thus enabled to continue as the British civilian passenger airfield but with certain supplies being flown in there as well.
From June 1948 until May 1949, the Allies flew 278,247 sorties and their planes delivered roughly, a total of over two million tonnes of supplies including clothing, medicine,coal, building material,petrol and diesel oil. It was calculated that there was a plane landing every three minutes of the day and night, week in week out.
According to reports, Stalin wqs shaken to the core by the magnitude and the skilled performance of the Western Powers in performing the fantastic operation throughout nearly a year and in every possible sort of weather.
He was shown that the Western Powers were not going to yield and opened up the links on the 11th. May 1948.
There is absolutely no doubt that the magnificent ,concerted effort of the allies had averted the very real nightmare reality of WW3. I am indebted to Colin Cruddas's terrific book "In Cobham's Company" for most of the foregoing introduction of "Der Luftbrucke" or "The Berlin Airlift" as I had the privilege of flying on it for the renowned pioneer of British Aviation, Sir Alan Cobham whose Company "Flight Refuelling " now known as "Cobhams" flew all the fuel oil and gasoline into Berlin during the Airlift.
As a boy I had been an eager spectator of the "Flying Circuses " that toured the country before the war. Alan Cobham and a Capt. Barnard were two of the main ones and the shows that they put on were wonderful and were always supported by crowds of air minded spectators. There would always be "a trip round Blackpool Tower for about seven shillings and sixpence and I can remember being a horrified spectator when the grand finale of one of the circuses which was a formation of aircraft including a three engined high wing monoplane and two or three biplanes over the town and there was a collision. Well over thirty years later, when I was a Captain in Sabena , we had a dinner party for some friends from EuroControl, the ATC set up in Brussels . I told them that I had been on the ground when I had seen the collision of two of these planes over Blackpool's Central Station and was amazed to hear one of the guests, my friend, Gordon Burch, say "I was a passenger in one of those planes, Reg ". He had been treated , by his Father, to a ride in one of the biplanes not concerned in the collision which caused a lot of fatalities and was newspaper headlines at the time.
To get back to the Berlin Airlift. Pilots, of course, were now flavour of the month as everyone with anything that could get off the ground was trying to get in on the Milk Cow that the Airlift was becoming. Don Bennet bought some Tudors, a chap called Bond bought a couple of Halifaxes , flew one himself and hired a crew for the other one. Silver City got in on it and I decided that I would contact "Flight Refuelling" because of my boyhood affinity with Sir Alan Cobham. Once again "Lady Luck" was riding with me when I went down to Tarrant Rushton for an interview with their Chief Pilot. I walked into the office and the chap behind the desk said "Hello Reg,. Long time no see." It was Tommy Marks, a fellow cadet from my training in Georgia in 1941 that was now Chief Pilot of "Flight Refuelling" . I had to take him up in one of their converted Lancastrians and I thought that I would show him a bit of the "limit flying" that we had used to teach at the EFS at Hullavington. I had just completed a steep turn with sixty degrees of bank and was preparing to stall it when he, rather hastily , said that he had seen enough and could I be ready to take a Lancastrian over to RAF Wunstorf tomorrow to join the airlift?
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Why we didn't fire.
He might have been out of ammuntion but he wasn't out of his mind ! He was out on the port and about three or four hundred yards so at the limit of the range and kept himself just slightly ahead and slightly below me so that the rear gunner couldn't see him and the mid upper couldn't bring his guns to bear on him without hitting our wing. They had long taken out the useless front gun .
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HR732 - Causalty Section
Cliffnemo, Regle and all
I found this one page document in Doug's file - called Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet. I doubt if it is meaningful, however interesting to note that Crash Signal Received (4/12) and Verification Received (6/12) are initialed even though they were lost without trace. Any thoughts on what that this might mean?
Regards,
Rodger
I found this one page document in Doug's file - called Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet. I doubt if it is meaningful, however interesting to note that Crash Signal Received (4/12) and Verification Received (6/12) are initialed even though they were lost without trace. Any thoughts on what that this might mean?
Regards,
Rodger
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Kookabat
There was a famous Singer called Al Jolson. He made one of the first all talking Movies "The Singing Fool",in 1928 ( I was six years old )where he had audiences in tears with his rendering of "Sonny Boy". He had a famous catchphrase. "You ain't seen nothing, yet".! Regle.
Last edited by regle; 15th Jun 2009 at 10:12. Reason: correction
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Google
Rmventure, thanks for that . Very useful advice. Haven't used the prefix 'site' yet but will soon. Just logged on to Google, then advanced search , enterd DARKY NEMO in the 'all these words box' and up came All the Brave Promises: Memories of Aircraft Woman 2nd Class 2146391 - Google Books Result
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages.
I couldn't copy and paste the script, think it was blocked, but included the words
Hello, Darky,' and we would call out safety to the unknown, "Hello, Nemo. Hello, Nemo.' One night an American voice came through at strength 1, weak, ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1570031002...All the Brave Promises: Memories of Aircraft Woman 2nd Class 2146391 - Google Books Result
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages
For any one interested , a bit more info on Darky can be read using Rmventures method.
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages.
I couldn't copy and paste the script, think it was blocked, but included the words
Hello, Darky,' and we would call out safety to the unknown, "Hello, Nemo. Hello, Nemo.' One night an American voice came through at strength 1, weak, ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1570031002...All the Brave Promises: Memories of Aircraft Woman 2nd Class 2146391 - Google Books Result
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages
For any one interested , a bit more info on Darky can be read using Rmventures method.
Reg and Cliff
As ever, lost in admiration and appreciation of your achievements and clear recollections, undimmed by the passing of the years - this thread should be required reading for a very wide range of people, not least historians to politicians .....
Grateful thanks too for Rodger's contributions, which I feel add a very substantial additional perspective, and I clearly understand why he says the "RCAF Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet" may not perhaps seem "meaningful" in the direct context of clarifying the circumstances of Doug's last flight.
However, I am sure that I am not alone in feeling that such sheets, which presumably existed in similar form for the RAF and all Commonwealth Air Forces, are enormously meaningful when, almost literally, one "reads between the lines" of the individual entries on the sheet and considers what they mean, singly and collectively, and the an impact they must have had on the lives, and, deaths, of so many brave men and their families.
Jack
As ever, lost in admiration and appreciation of your achievements and clear recollections, undimmed by the passing of the years - this thread should be required reading for a very wide range of people, not least historians to politicians .....
Grateful thanks too for Rodger's contributions, which I feel add a very substantial additional perspective, and I clearly understand why he says the "RCAF Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet" may not perhaps seem "meaningful" in the direct context of clarifying the circumstances of Doug's last flight.
However, I am sure that I am not alone in feeling that such sheets, which presumably existed in similar form for the RAF and all Commonwealth Air Forces, are enormously meaningful when, almost literally, one "reads between the lines" of the individual entries on the sheet and considers what they mean, singly and collectively, and the an impact they must have had on the lives, and, deaths, of so many brave men and their families.
Jack
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I had to take him up in one of their converted Lancastrians and I thought that I would show him a bit of the "limit flying" that we had used to teach at the EFS at Hullavington. I had just completed a steep turn with sixty degrees of bank and was preparing to stall it when he, rather hastily , said that he had seen enough and could I be ready to take a Lancastrian over to RAF Wunstorf tomorrow to join the airlift?
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Harrogate
Rmventure . Harrogate was simply a holding place for qualified aircrew. Think I have written everything I remember about the place.However if you have any specific questions, ask on this thread. If I can't help you others will.
The only thing I didn't previously mention, and has recently come to mind. One morning we were on parade when an aircraft , possibly a Tiger Moth , can't remember, flew low over the Majestic Hotel they normally dropped toilet rolls, but this time it was inflated condoms (as we are obliged to call them now) . One landed between us and our flight sergeant, We roared with laughter, the F/S shouted "quiet you silly little men, and when you are old enough I will tell you what they are really for (more laughter)
The only thing I didn't previously mention, and has recently come to mind. One morning we were on parade when an aircraft , possibly a Tiger Moth , can't remember, flew low over the Majestic Hotel they normally dropped toilet rolls, but this time it was inflated condoms (as we are obliged to call them now) . One landed between us and our flight sergeant, We roared with laughter, the F/S shouted "quiet you silly little men, and when you are old enough I will tell you what they are really for (more laughter)
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Darky
Hi Cliff,
Thanks very much for those pages of your notes about radio procedures - it filled out my understanding of the Darky procedure a heck of a lot. (And thanks for digging out those book titles.)
It did raise one question in my mind, if you happen to know the answer; when making a Darky R/T call, were the Darky stations listening on all possible R/T frequencies, or was there a button on the R/T channel selector in the aircraft which was reserved for a single Darky channel that was to be used by all aircraft?
Thanks yet again!
Cheers,
Dave
Thanks very much for those pages of your notes about radio procedures - it filled out my understanding of the Darky procedure a heck of a lot. (And thanks for digging out those book titles.)
It did raise one question in my mind, if you happen to know the answer; when making a Darky R/T call, were the Darky stations listening on all possible R/T frequencies, or was there a button on the R/T channel selector in the aircraft which was reserved for a single Darky channel that was to be used by all aircraft?
Thanks yet again!
Cheers,
Dave
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Halifax Bomber Virtual Tour - Yorkshire Air Museum
Hi Icare.
Thanks for the gen on scanning interior of the Elvington Halifax. Managed to obtain full screen . It is amazing and I would suggest all pruners should view. Not only can you pan round the various stations, but can scan up and down , even see John's astrodome , made from a flat sheet of perspex. An absolute tribute to John and his helpers, not to forget the people who produced the film.
Look at the pic below, showing John and his wife standing in front of the Halibag.It is still awaiting the front section, and then compare it with the finished inside pics.You will then appreciate the vast amount of work, scrounging for parts, studying blue prints , routing of pipes and wires, etc, they experienced
I am visiting Beverley, and Pocklington at the weekend, and have arranged to meet John and search his memorabilia for items of interest If I find anything of interest ,will reproduce here. With a bit of luck I may persuade him to load PPRuNE on his new laptop.
Now working on replies re Form 700, Regle's PPRuNE badge, lost tail wheels. stowaways, PHEW.
Thanks for the gen on scanning interior of the Elvington Halifax. Managed to obtain full screen . It is amazing and I would suggest all pruners should view. Not only can you pan round the various stations, but can scan up and down , even see John's astrodome , made from a flat sheet of perspex. An absolute tribute to John and his helpers, not to forget the people who produced the film.
Look at the pic below, showing John and his wife standing in front of the Halibag.It is still awaiting the front section, and then compare it with the finished inside pics.You will then appreciate the vast amount of work, scrounging for parts, studying blue prints , routing of pipes and wires, etc, they experienced
I am visiting Beverley, and Pocklington at the weekend, and have arranged to meet John and search his memorabilia for items of interest If I find anything of interest ,will reproduce here. With a bit of luck I may persuade him to load PPRuNE on his new laptop.
Now working on replies re Form 700, Regle's PPRuNE badge, lost tail wheels. stowaways, PHEW.
Cliff: What you two guys are doing would tire the rest of us, let alone your venerable years. At this rate you will outlast Henry Allingham, so we can look forward to another 30 years of posts!!
Regle:
I half expected you to say you did the voice over and he mimed!!! I can have people in tears too, when I sing, but not for that reason!!
I've never heard of a "Crash Signal" before. What does it mean (assuming that as it didn't happen to either of you, you might still have known about it.) Did each aircraft have a continuous tone that, when it crashed cut off, or was a signal somehow sent automatically? If there was such a signal, wouldn't it have given a time when the signal was lost? There is no provision for a time to be recorded on that Form, simply the date.
I can't recall ever hearing about this before. What would "Verification" consist of? 48 hours without word from AirSea Rescue or other report of landing or crashing somewhere in England, it would be safe to assume that you couldn't still be in the air. Without contact from the crew you would be posted as "Missing". I recall that some aircraft carried homing pigeons so you could get a message back hopefully giving a location.
Apologies for dwelling on this darker issue, I really do want to hear the rest of your stories, but when certain subjects are raised, I think we all benefit from participating in some small way. And Reg, I can now understand better why that fighter made such an impression on you. A small human moment amongst all the horror.
Onwards, my friends!!
Regle:
There was a famous Singer called Al Jolson. He made one of the first all talking Movies "The Singing Fool", in 1928 (I was six years old) where he had audiences in tears with his rendering of "Sonny Boy'
I've never heard of a "Crash Signal" before. What does it mean (assuming that as it didn't happen to either of you, you might still have known about it.) Did each aircraft have a continuous tone that, when it crashed cut off, or was a signal somehow sent automatically? If there was such a signal, wouldn't it have given a time when the signal was lost? There is no provision for a time to be recorded on that Form, simply the date.
I can't recall ever hearing about this before. What would "Verification" consist of? 48 hours without word from AirSea Rescue or other report of landing or crashing somewhere in England, it would be safe to assume that you couldn't still be in the air. Without contact from the crew you would be posted as "Missing". I recall that some aircraft carried homing pigeons so you could get a message back hopefully giving a location.
Apologies for dwelling on this darker issue, I really do want to hear the rest of your stories, but when certain subjects are raised, I think we all benefit from participating in some small way. And Reg, I can now understand better why that fighter made such an impression on you. A small human moment amongst all the horror.
Onwards, my friends!!
As regle says about the Berlin Airlift and Stalin being staggered by the West's response, I understand that the the Soviet calculations were based on WW2 airlift capabilities .
Specifically, the inabilty of the Luftwaffe to supply the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad played a major part in their planning the blocckade of Berlin.
Apologies for any thread drift will get back on track soon !
Specifically, the inabilty of the Luftwaffe to supply the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad played a major part in their planning the blocckade of Berlin.
Apologies for any thread drift will get back on track soon !
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Google
RMVENTURI . Have just Googled as you suggested >
site:http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ts-brevet-ww11 (if any one wants to use this method, see RMVENTURI'S previous URL/post, as the above was corrupted during copy and paste )
It not only works well searching in pprune, but I have bookmarked the above blenheim page, and when I want to search PPRuNE just reload it from bookmarks, delete the word blenheim and substitute say Harrogate, smashing.
Thanks CLIFF.
site:http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ts-brevet-ww11 (if any one wants to use this method, see RMVENTURI'S previous URL/post, as the above was corrupted during copy and paste )
It not only works well searching in pprune, but I have bookmarked the above blenheim page, and when I want to search PPRuNE just reload it from bookmarks, delete the word blenheim and substitute say Harrogate, smashing.
Thanks CLIFF.
Last edited by cliffnemo; 16th Jun 2009 at 15:24. Reason: Problem with URL.
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Franz Stigler - Post# 829
Franz Stigler!
What a story! A man of honour!
Sorry guys but I do hope it was just the red wine that made me wipe a tear when I read that story!
I am sure that this man slept well with his conscience in his latter years with that particular memory of his war.
Are there similar stories from Junkers pilots over England?
(Please don't answer in the context of right or wrong, sides etc, but in the context of humanity.)
There was so much lost by all sides during those horrible times - WW1 and 2 - I am sad that I did not listen as much to tales such as yours, Cliffnemo and Regle, as much as I should have when I was younger.
Men (and women) that would stand up to the plate and face whatever would be delivered. But back then I guess I took it for granted then that you guys would always be around.
Thank you.
What a story! A man of honour!
Sorry guys but I do hope it was just the red wine that made me wipe a tear when I read that story!
I am sure that this man slept well with his conscience in his latter years with that particular memory of his war.
Are there similar stories from Junkers pilots over England?
(Please don't answer in the context of right or wrong, sides etc, but in the context of humanity.)
There was so much lost by all sides during those horrible times - WW1 and 2 - I am sad that I did not listen as much to tales such as yours, Cliffnemo and Regle, as much as I should have when I was younger.
Men (and women) that would stand up to the plate and face whatever would be delivered. But back then I guess I took it for granted then that you guys would always be around.
Thank you.
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To jungle drums
I quote your words " I wish that I had listened more....etc" . My late beloved wife used to say exactly the same thing about her Father, who was in the 1st. World War, was in the trenches and at Gallipoli. But it was ever thus. I was lucky enough to have a very young Father who joined the RAF at the same time as I did. He was 40 and I was 18 so I did not have the, let's face it, boring task to an adolescent of listening to some old Geezer (Probably about forty !) telling war stories. It is only because of this fantastic and accursed thing that I am sitting before ,that we are able to communicate and not waste our hard earned experience to make, I hope , it unneccessary for future generations to undergo the same thing. But I doubt that it will. But I do add one thing that I have said over and over again. KEEP A DIARY,or whatever replaces it in this electronic world. It is to my lasting regret that I did not but I do have six log books so I can refer to them for where I was all those years and, roughly what I was doing. All the very best, Reg.
Last edited by regle; 17th Jun 2009 at 05:47.