Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
C.P.R. 4-6-4
I think the locomotive photographed is a Canadian Pacific Railway example with a very distinctive number style on the side. Its sister survives in preservation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Pacific_2816. Eko.
Chugalug2
I am afraid I don't know what class of loco it is - it is just a picture of what pulled Dad's train. He has always had an interest in steam engines as his father was a designer for Hunslet Steam engines.
HF
I am afraid I don't know what class of loco it is - it is just a picture of what pulled Dad's train. He has always had an interest in steam engines as his father was a designer for Hunslet Steam engines.
HF
eko4me, just to be clear the unknown loco is this one posted by hummingfrog:-
and not the one in my 5701, which is indeed a CPR Hudson as you say. Perhaps I had better let this one go, lest it become thread drift stemming from thread drift!
Hummingfrog, no worries and same comment applies as above.
and not the one in my 5701, which is indeed a CPR Hudson as you say. Perhaps I had better let this one go, lest it become thread drift stemming from thread drift!
Hummingfrog, no worries and same comment applies as above.
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Chugalug,
Your: "..... Having to keep airframes in a warm hangar before start up is still SOP and I have had my Hercules so cossetted at Thule before start-up and TO...."
There was an embarrassing incident at Teesside many moons ago. The Vickers Viscount which was to fly the first service of the five LHR shuttlles of the day was tucked up nice and warm in the hangar. The Flight and Cabin crews were ready to perform. The PAX were sipping their last coffees in the Departure Lounge. All the omens were propitious.
The Hangar doors were frozen solid shut !
How long did it take to thaw them out ? Don't know.
D.
Your: "..... Having to keep airframes in a warm hangar before start up is still SOP and I have had my Hercules so cossetted at Thule before start-up and TO...."
There was an embarrassing incident at Teesside many moons ago. The Vickers Viscount which was to fly the first service of the five LHR shuttlles of the day was tucked up nice and warm in the hangar. The Flight and Cabin crews were ready to perform. The PAX were sipping their last coffees in the Departure Lounge. All the omens were propitious.
The Hangar doors were frozen solid shut !
How long did it take to thaw them out ? Don't know.
D.
Oh dear! Well at least they obeyed the strictures about the hangar doors, Danny! Not something we could ever claim, I'm very glad to say. 
PPRuNe Power!
A couple of nights ago a middle-aged chap was looking through his late father's WW2 log book and he reached Nov. 1944 and his dad had arrived at 229 Group Comms Flight Palam India. "What was that all about"? he thought, and promptly Googled it. The first Google page brought up various tidbits of interest, and included this thread's page 277 (my post 5539) "Of Beechcraft and Barracudas". He looked back in his dad's log and saw that the pilot who checked his father out, firstly on the Fairchild Argus, (radial engined version), was a F/S Burgess. "Blimey", he thought, could this fellow, I BB, be his son? So he promptly signed up to PPRuNe, which he was previously unaware of, and sent me a PM asking me if I was the son of F/S Burgess.
I am still in the UK monitoring "Wrenjob" my old mum, but I rang home and "herself" checked the Nov. page in my dad's log, and yes, this fellow's father's name was there. I am so chuffed I can't tell you!
It is not hard find records of your forebears if you connect with associations like 5BFTS who have great records and members. Likewise if your dad was in a famous squadron with a well recorded history, but to hear from someone who's dad flew with my dad in a small obscure Flight in the Sub-Continent is "effing" miraculous. Without PPRuNe and this, indispensibly important historical thread this connect would never have happened. We are now exchanging photos and log book info. They flew together several times over the next months until VJ Day changed everyone's world.
The "interweb" and this glorious thread have made this possible. My sincere thanks to the late members who kicked of these important memories here, and also, of course, to our current 90+(not out) writers, Danny, harrym, Ormeside28, and the Hummingfrog(s) who write (with considerable style)
their stories for those of us who were not there.
Thank you and goodnight
Ian BB
I am still in the UK monitoring "Wrenjob" my old mum, but I rang home and "herself" checked the Nov. page in my dad's log, and yes, this fellow's father's name was there. I am so chuffed I can't tell you!
It is not hard find records of your forebears if you connect with associations like 5BFTS who have great records and members. Likewise if your dad was in a famous squadron with a well recorded history, but to hear from someone who's dad flew with my dad in a small obscure Flight in the Sub-Continent is "effing" miraculous. Without PPRuNe and this, indispensibly important historical thread this connect would never have happened. We are now exchanging photos and log book info. They flew together several times over the next months until VJ Day changed everyone's world.
The "interweb" and this glorious thread have made this possible. My sincere thanks to the late members who kicked of these important memories here, and also, of course, to our current 90+(not out) writers, Danny, harrym, Ormeside28, and the Hummingfrog(s) who write (with considerable style)
their stories for those of us who were not there.
Thank you and goodnight
Ian BB
Last edited by Ian Burgess-Barber; 31st May 2014 at 20:58. Reason: Missed letter in 5BFTS
My Father's story continues with his posting to Montrose in Scotland. To answer a question about the location of the Officers' Mess dad believes it was a house in Rosemount to the NE of the airfield.
"So I was back in Scotland to my new role as an instructor of instructors. At times this was particularly difficult with operational pilots, some with decorations beneath their wings and with experience of battle who were your pupils, having been taken off operations and posted to learn a totally different role.
I remained on the staff of 2FIS flying until the early part of winter 1944/5. I was off flying for 5 months having broken bones in my right hand following a tackle whilst playing rugby for the Station’s rugby team and ending up in hospital for quite some time. I remember my first return to the mess, my arm in a plaster and a sling, to the somewhat ribald comments of my colleagues!
Before returning to flying in January 1945, I had gained an insight into the admin side of flying training when I came out of hospital and spent time in the Flying Wing Adjutant’s office.
I was to remain at 2 FIS until July 1945 when I was posted back to Flying Instruction duties teaching young French cadets at RAF 7SFTS (Service Flying Training School) at Sutton Bridge in Norfolk. It was here on 29 November 1945 that serious damage was done to one of His Majesty’s Oxford aeroplanes! I was putting young French cadet through a pre-Wings test. We had been on a cross country flight during which I checked his navigation and then quite some miles from the airfield I cut one of the engines by closing the throttle. This was quite a normal pre-wings check. The cadet was quite unaware that this was going to happen but his reactions were quite good and we arrived back over the airfield. It was a very windy day, with strong gusts. In the circuit on his downwind leg I could sense he was having a little difficulty and was a little apprehensive. He went a little too far downwind as he turned - still on one engine of course - with the strong wind pushing him further away from the airfield. He was allowing himself little leeway to make a good approach without careful use of throttle - on one engine remember. I sensed he did not realise he was going to find it difficult to maintain height. As we approached the runway I knew I had left it too late to takeover. I knocked his hand off the throttle and opened up the throttle of the ‘dead’ engine - but too late! As we came over the boundary the aircraft stalled, the port wing dropped and hit the runway. I remember cutting the mag switches and then all hell broke loose! The aircraft disintegrated but luckily the cabin and cockpit remained fairly whole. The Red VERY Lights flashed and the fire tenders rushed over and the rescue crews hauled us out. The aircraft was a bit of a mess but we both escaped with shock and minor injuries. We were taken to the medical centre and checked out. After all the routine enquiries were made it was almost teatime and then came perhaps the most embarrassing moment of all. As I walked into the Officers’ Mess Ante Room for tea - the tea urn being at the far end of the room - a silence descended on all those colleagues in the room. So in total silence I had to walk the full length of the room - without a word from anyone - then as I poured the tea into my cup the noise started and I was given a real ribald welcome and was congratulated on having survived a really nasty accident! I dare not repeat some of the comments made!! It was definitely a moment I never forgot!
There was, of course, an enquiry and I had to be rechecked by the CFI. I passed fit to carry on, thank goodness. Routine returned and I carried on teaching the French cadets to fly and then my final posting to RAF Kirton Lindsey, still instructing the French cadets until demobilisation.
One trip I will always remember whilst at Kirton Lindsey. A mess dinner was being arranged. The Chief Flying Instructor, knowing that my last station was RAF Sutton Bridge in Norfolk, requested my presence in his office. I wondered what ‘offence’ I had committed. He referred to the forthcoming mess dinner and asked me whether I knew any farmers in the area of Sutton Bridge - an area of fruit farming. It just so happened that the owners of a transport company in the area, and who also owned a petrol station and where I used to fill up my car to travel home to Leeds, became very good friends to me. I telephoned my friends to explain that we were having a mess dinner at Kirton and could he put us in touch with farmers growing strawberries? The answer was ‘Yes, what can we do to help?’. Arrangements were made and the CFI said ‘Right, take another aircraft with you on a training run cross-country’ - and so to Sutton Bridge we flew. My log book tells me that on 15 May 1946 that the surname of my pupil was Lebomin. We filled both aircraft with punnets of strawberries and back we flew to Kirton Lindsey. The mess dinner was a huge success and the C.O. complimented us on a cross-country exercise well performed!
And so my final flight with the Royal Air Force took place on 9 July 1946.
I left Kirton Lindsey by train for Uxbridge, London, when on 18 July 1946 I finally ‘retired’ from the Royal Air Fore, changing my RAF uniform into my ‘demob suit’. I was handed my first class single travel warrant to Leeds and from the secure environment of the RAF I stepped out into an uncertain world that I had not known for almost 5½ years."
He did tell me a story that at the end of the war with no students to teach he was relaxing in the OM after lunch with the other instructors when the Stn Commander came in, a "regular career officer", and berated them for not being at work - difficult with no students
This confirmed his decision not to remain in the RAF post war - though he did miss the flying.
It was also good to see that the use of training trips in his day was the same as mine - seafood from N Ireland for mess functions was a favourite load in the back of a Wessex
HF
(more photos to follow)
"So I was back in Scotland to my new role as an instructor of instructors. At times this was particularly difficult with operational pilots, some with decorations beneath their wings and with experience of battle who were your pupils, having been taken off operations and posted to learn a totally different role.
I remained on the staff of 2FIS flying until the early part of winter 1944/5. I was off flying for 5 months having broken bones in my right hand following a tackle whilst playing rugby for the Station’s rugby team and ending up in hospital for quite some time. I remember my first return to the mess, my arm in a plaster and a sling, to the somewhat ribald comments of my colleagues!
Before returning to flying in January 1945, I had gained an insight into the admin side of flying training when I came out of hospital and spent time in the Flying Wing Adjutant’s office.
I was to remain at 2 FIS until July 1945 when I was posted back to Flying Instruction duties teaching young French cadets at RAF 7SFTS (Service Flying Training School) at Sutton Bridge in Norfolk. It was here on 29 November 1945 that serious damage was done to one of His Majesty’s Oxford aeroplanes! I was putting young French cadet through a pre-Wings test. We had been on a cross country flight during which I checked his navigation and then quite some miles from the airfield I cut one of the engines by closing the throttle. This was quite a normal pre-wings check. The cadet was quite unaware that this was going to happen but his reactions were quite good and we arrived back over the airfield. It was a very windy day, with strong gusts. In the circuit on his downwind leg I could sense he was having a little difficulty and was a little apprehensive. He went a little too far downwind as he turned - still on one engine of course - with the strong wind pushing him further away from the airfield. He was allowing himself little leeway to make a good approach without careful use of throttle - on one engine remember. I sensed he did not realise he was going to find it difficult to maintain height. As we approached the runway I knew I had left it too late to takeover. I knocked his hand off the throttle and opened up the throttle of the ‘dead’ engine - but too late! As we came over the boundary the aircraft stalled, the port wing dropped and hit the runway. I remember cutting the mag switches and then all hell broke loose! The aircraft disintegrated but luckily the cabin and cockpit remained fairly whole. The Red VERY Lights flashed and the fire tenders rushed over and the rescue crews hauled us out. The aircraft was a bit of a mess but we both escaped with shock and minor injuries. We were taken to the medical centre and checked out. After all the routine enquiries were made it was almost teatime and then came perhaps the most embarrassing moment of all. As I walked into the Officers’ Mess Ante Room for tea - the tea urn being at the far end of the room - a silence descended on all those colleagues in the room. So in total silence I had to walk the full length of the room - without a word from anyone - then as I poured the tea into my cup the noise started and I was given a real ribald welcome and was congratulated on having survived a really nasty accident! I dare not repeat some of the comments made!! It was definitely a moment I never forgot!
There was, of course, an enquiry and I had to be rechecked by the CFI. I passed fit to carry on, thank goodness. Routine returned and I carried on teaching the French cadets to fly and then my final posting to RAF Kirton Lindsey, still instructing the French cadets until demobilisation.
One trip I will always remember whilst at Kirton Lindsey. A mess dinner was being arranged. The Chief Flying Instructor, knowing that my last station was RAF Sutton Bridge in Norfolk, requested my presence in his office. I wondered what ‘offence’ I had committed. He referred to the forthcoming mess dinner and asked me whether I knew any farmers in the area of Sutton Bridge - an area of fruit farming. It just so happened that the owners of a transport company in the area, and who also owned a petrol station and where I used to fill up my car to travel home to Leeds, became very good friends to me. I telephoned my friends to explain that we were having a mess dinner at Kirton and could he put us in touch with farmers growing strawberries? The answer was ‘Yes, what can we do to help?’. Arrangements were made and the CFI said ‘Right, take another aircraft with you on a training run cross-country’ - and so to Sutton Bridge we flew. My log book tells me that on 15 May 1946 that the surname of my pupil was Lebomin. We filled both aircraft with punnets of strawberries and back we flew to Kirton Lindsey. The mess dinner was a huge success and the C.O. complimented us on a cross-country exercise well performed!
And so my final flight with the Royal Air Force took place on 9 July 1946.
I left Kirton Lindsey by train for Uxbridge, London, when on 18 July 1946 I finally ‘retired’ from the Royal Air Fore, changing my RAF uniform into my ‘demob suit’. I was handed my first class single travel warrant to Leeds and from the secure environment of the RAF I stepped out into an uncertain world that I had not known for almost 5½ years."
He did tell me a story that at the end of the war with no students to teach he was relaxing in the OM after lunch with the other instructors when the Stn Commander came in, a "regular career officer", and berated them for not being at work - difficult with no students
This confirmed his decision not to remain in the RAF post war - though he did miss the flying.It was also good to see that the use of training trips in his day was the same as mine - seafood from N Ireland for mess functions was a favourite load in the back of a Wessex
HF
(more photos to follow)
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Hummingfrog,
Your fathers 'trip' to obtain strawberries, and your own 'fishing trip' made me chuckle as I remember an event in the mid-80's.
I was manning the trade desk at that stalwart, sole operator of Shacks, Eight Fighter All Weather Squadron...except when it's raining or dark, at Lossiemouth.
Phone rings, camlobe answers. "Ah, hello Sqn Ldr XXXXX, II Squadron, Bruggen here. Can I speak with John the Fish please?" To enlighten, John the Fish was a 'retired' fishing boat Captain, who for many years, was employed as an aircraft cleaner on Eight, and was a most valued member of the Squadron. He also maintained his fishing contacts, supplying the freshest fish to Kinloss and Lossie personnel every Thursday. The two old friends chat on the phone for a few minutes, and say their farewells.
The following Thursday, Sqn Ldr XXXX arrives in his Jaguar (the type with two Adours) complete with underwing carry pods. John the Fish arrives, and in to the carry pods go some of the finest, freshest salmon, and the Jag departs.
Apparently, according to John, the fresh Scottish salmon was rather well received at the dinning in night.
Great days,
Camlobe
Your fathers 'trip' to obtain strawberries, and your own 'fishing trip' made me chuckle as I remember an event in the mid-80's.
I was manning the trade desk at that stalwart, sole operator of Shacks, Eight Fighter All Weather Squadron...except when it's raining or dark, at Lossiemouth.
Phone rings, camlobe answers. "Ah, hello Sqn Ldr XXXXX, II Squadron, Bruggen here. Can I speak with John the Fish please?" To enlighten, John the Fish was a 'retired' fishing boat Captain, who for many years, was employed as an aircraft cleaner on Eight, and was a most valued member of the Squadron. He also maintained his fishing contacts, supplying the freshest fish to Kinloss and Lossie personnel every Thursday. The two old friends chat on the phone for a few minutes, and say their farewells.
The following Thursday, Sqn Ldr XXXX arrives in his Jaguar (the type with two Adours) complete with underwing carry pods. John the Fish arrives, and in to the carry pods go some of the finest, freshest salmon, and the Jag departs.
Apparently, according to John, the fresh Scottish salmon was rather well received at the dinning in night.
Great days,
Camlobe
Very early in the seventies, Aerospatial, as it was called then, wanted to present the AS330 (Puma) onto the civil market. For this the main gearbox had to have a certified TBO well in excess of the 800 hrs. which was the military time expired point. The result was that the French Army offered four Pumas and the Royal Air Force two. The aircraft on our squadron was XW 203 that was just coming up to a gearbox change. This gearbox would continue to fly under very close supervision and the plot was that this aircraft would fly 100 hrs. a month. (shock, horror) The rest of the aircraft would then have to meet the normal flying task.
This wasn't that easy owing to a lot of pilots being detached and especially when the weather socked in. Quite often it would be invisible as it hovered relentlessly in thick fog.
We soon found a use for this freebe taxi.
As mentioned before this was an ideal opportunity to restock freezers, fridges and the wine cellar. Machrahanish for kippers and other goodies and even a foray to Orkney to collect some choice lamb. We had an 'arrangement' with Manston customs where we could be assured of a rapid rotors-running customs clearance when we had a load of German wine from Gutersloh.
It was used for the things as well. Aberdeen still had the UAS and there pan would be occupied by this Puma whilst the pilots discussed their career prospects with the chief pilots of the helicopter operators. One of our groundcrew hailed from some island to the west of Scotland. To save him days of travelling when going on leave a time when the tide was out (Aunty Betty owns all the beach between the high and low water mark) we would drop him off a short walk from his home and subsequently pick him up again. One of the more unusual jobs was moving someone's goods and chattles from Odiham to his new posting.
All good things have to come to an end. XW 203, in a sudden burst of enthusiasm, attempted to carry out a slow roll all by itself just after take off in a field. It didn't manage it, the crew survived with only minor burns, but in the end an undercarriage leg was all that was sticking out of the ashes.
Another aircraft was substituted but this was under a draconian monitoring programme so it wasn't allowed to go very far.
The project must have worked. When I started flying civil 330s the gearbox TBO was 1800 hrs. and with modern monitoring techniques they are way past that.
This wasn't that easy owing to a lot of pilots being detached and especially when the weather socked in. Quite often it would be invisible as it hovered relentlessly in thick fog.
We soon found a use for this freebe taxi.
As mentioned before this was an ideal opportunity to restock freezers, fridges and the wine cellar. Machrahanish for kippers and other goodies and even a foray to Orkney to collect some choice lamb. We had an 'arrangement' with Manston customs where we could be assured of a rapid rotors-running customs clearance when we had a load of German wine from Gutersloh.
It was used for the things as well. Aberdeen still had the UAS and there pan would be occupied by this Puma whilst the pilots discussed their career prospects with the chief pilots of the helicopter operators. One of our groundcrew hailed from some island to the west of Scotland. To save him days of travelling when going on leave a time when the tide was out (Aunty Betty owns all the beach between the high and low water mark) we would drop him off a short walk from his home and subsequently pick him up again. One of the more unusual jobs was moving someone's goods and chattles from Odiham to his new posting.
All good things have to come to an end. XW 203, in a sudden burst of enthusiasm, attempted to carry out a slow roll all by itself just after take off in a field. It didn't manage it, the crew survived with only minor burns, but in the end an undercarriage leg was all that was sticking out of the ashes.
Another aircraft was substituted but this was under a draconian monitoring programme so it wasn't allowed to go very far.
The project must have worked. When I started flying civil 330s the gearbox TBO was 1800 hrs. and with modern monitoring techniques they are way past that.
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I posted a request to a railway newsgroup for identification of the locomotive and this was the response:
Working on the principle that most RAF training was done in Canada I
enterd the Canadian Pacific 3612 into google and it came up with class
N2a.
Entering Canadian Pacific N2a and selecting images brings up many
examples of which this one.
Richard Leonard's Random Steam Photo Collection -- Canadian Pacific 2-8-0 3674
I wouldn't 100% say it is that as some details look a little different
but that could be class variations, anyway it's a starting point.
It looks like the City of Vancouver archives have an actual photo of
3612 but I can't gain access to it.
enterd the Canadian Pacific 3612 into google and it came up with class
N2a.
Entering Canadian Pacific N2a and selecting images brings up many
examples of which this one.
Richard Leonard's Random Steam Photo Collection -- Canadian Pacific 2-8-0 3674
I wouldn't 100% say it is that as some details look a little different
but that could be class variations, anyway it's a starting point.
It looks like the City of Vancouver archives have an actual photo of
3612 but I can't gain access to it.
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Danny42C-
The suggested link between Biggles and the Bigsworth board sounds pretty convincing - many thanks, Hempy! As to the B24, suppose it's possible that a sufficient transfer of weight to the back might cause it to drag the rear end along the deck, thus resulting in extra braking effect? After all, it was not unknown for nosewheel a/c to squat on their a--- end if incorrectly loaded/unloaded, which is why some of them had removable struts that could be placed under the tail. As for our tyrannical F/Sgt discip, he only abused us when other staff were out of earshot.
What did you say to affront Sir Basil E? Many years later when attending a medical board, in answer to being told my thigh length (I am rather tall) would debar me from ejector seat aircraft, my reply of 'that's good news' received a rather dusty reception!
Chugalug2-
Yes we were very fortunate in being granted that three weeks leave, and most made good use of it. One small group hitch-hiked their way round much of the southern and western US, mostly by air - they simply rolled up at the nearest USAAF base and asked if any aircraft were going to wherever, and were almost always successful. So far as I know, return to Moncton at the end of leave was fully subscribed.
Although this thread is nominally about training to wings standard, in actual fact subsequent training to operational status could take much longer. For instance, while I was in Canada for eight months nearly twice as long elapsed before I was ready for squadron posting - and I was lucky, for others at that stage of the war it could take even longer or for some unfortunates not at all. My later progress through pre-AFU, AFU, OTU, TSCU & GPU lasted about fifteen months; if not considered off topic, it can be made to appear here!
The suggested link between Biggles and the Bigsworth board sounds pretty convincing - many thanks, Hempy! As to the B24, suppose it's possible that a sufficient transfer of weight to the back might cause it to drag the rear end along the deck, thus resulting in extra braking effect? After all, it was not unknown for nosewheel a/c to squat on their a--- end if incorrectly loaded/unloaded, which is why some of them had removable struts that could be placed under the tail. As for our tyrannical F/Sgt discip, he only abused us when other staff were out of earshot.
What did you say to affront Sir Basil E? Many years later when attending a medical board, in answer to being told my thigh length (I am rather tall) would debar me from ejector seat aircraft, my reply of 'that's good news' received a rather dusty reception!
Chugalug2-
Yes we were very fortunate in being granted that three weeks leave, and most made good use of it. One small group hitch-hiked their way round much of the southern and western US, mostly by air - they simply rolled up at the nearest USAAF base and asked if any aircraft were going to wherever, and were almost always successful. So far as I know, return to Moncton at the end of leave was fully subscribed.
Although this thread is nominally about training to wings standard, in actual fact subsequent training to operational status could take much longer. For instance, while I was in Canada for eight months nearly twice as long elapsed before I was ready for squadron posting - and I was lucky, for others at that stage of the war it could take even longer or for some unfortunates not at all. My later progress through pre-AFU, AFU, OTU, TSCU & GPU lasted about fifteen months; if not considered off topic, it can be made to appear here!
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Hummingfrog,
"My Father's story continues with his posting to Montrose in Scotland. To answer a question about the location of the Officers' Mess dad believes it was a house in Rosemount to the NE of the airfield".
Rosemount is near the village of Hillside, which is a couple of miles NW of the airfield. Not the place I was asking about, but thanks for asking your Dad, and it's nice to hear stories from someone who was posted to Montrose.
Edit: There are a few photos I took on a visit to the Montrose airfield museum last year -
http://s83.photobucket.com/user/Kint...tml?sort=3&o=0
(hope this works)
OSLF
"My Father's story continues with his posting to Montrose in Scotland. To answer a question about the location of the Officers' Mess dad believes it was a house in Rosemount to the NE of the airfield".
Rosemount is near the village of Hillside, which is a couple of miles NW of the airfield. Not the place I was asking about, but thanks for asking your Dad, and it's nice to hear stories from someone who was posted to Montrose.
Edit: There are a few photos I took on a visit to the Montrose airfield museum last year -
http://s83.photobucket.com/user/Kint...tml?sort=3&o=0
(hope this works)
OSLF
harrym:-
Just when I though I had all the cryptic initials sorted! Anyway, that's all bye the bye, so let me be the first to say, "Make it so!", having struck an imposing Jean-Luc Picard pose, and then spoilt it all by adding, "Pretty please!".
I'm impressed by the ease with which you might hitch a ride on one of Uncle Sam's Flying Machines so effortlessly. One of my duties as Deputy Adj on a FEAF squadron in the 60's was to fabricate 'orders' authorising 'official leave' which I covered and endorsed with every rubber stamp available in the office. A standard RAF leave form wouldn't get you the time of day, but 'orders', now they made all the difference!
My later progress through pre-AFU, AFU, OTU, TSCU & GPU lasted about fifteen months; if not considered off topic, it can be made to appear here!
I'm impressed by the ease with which you might hitch a ride on one of Uncle Sam's Flying Machines so effortlessly. One of my duties as Deputy Adj on a FEAF squadron in the 60's was to fabricate 'orders' authorising 'official leave' which I covered and endorsed with every rubber stamp available in the office. A standard RAF leave form wouldn't get you the time of day, but 'orders', now they made all the difference!
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My dad - 'Super Nav' or just Lucky?
My late father joined up from a reserved occupation in about 1942 and wanted to be a navigator. He was thus one of the few of his intake who got what he wanted. After that, it gets a bit vague.
I know he trained in South Africa - Kyalami and East London I think - gaining his N wings. I know that ordinarily he would have been posted to a squadron and that, given the loss rate in '43, I would probably not be here. However, I think my dad had been found to be rather good at navigating and he was chosen to do the next big thing; 'Master bomber'. Mum and dad were married about a week after the Dam Busters raid.
After that, he still wasn't posted to a squadron, but sent for Pathfinder training. After that, low level a la Armiens and Shell Copenhagen - which he hated, with tour served Mosquito and Beaufighter drivers being told to fly at naught feet to test dad with 'left at the Red Cow' and 'Right at St. Andrews'. Still no squadron and then on to 'Long Distance Over Water', which could only mean the Far East.
Then they dropped the bomb and dad did 'Copper Beating' until he was demobbed in late '45 or early '46 and went back to his drawing board. I was born in December '46! It wasn't until we lost him in 1996 that I realised just how meticulous he was and why he was obviously such a skilled navigator. Why he didn't go to BOAC or any other airline post war, I don't know. They had plenty of top pilots, but probably not too many top navigators.
The thing is, where and how do I start looking for records? So far as I know, he didn't keep his log book - I assume Nav's had them too? - but I would love to know what aircraft he flew and from where.
Also there is one intriguing story from his time in South Africa. On one or perhaps his final cross country navex the pilot - a SAAF Afrikaans pilot - deviated from dads instructions, to do a low level beat up of his family farm ..... and crashed the aeroplane. The pilot demanded that dad falsify his navigation plot to show they should have been over the farm, but dad refused and I believe there was a frightful row. The pilot went on to become a noted South African golfer on the international circuit, but it wasn't Gary Player. Any idea who?
After he was demobbed, dad never flew again until BEA took him to somewhere in German in the late fifties or even sixties, but I guess you could say he had a good war?
Roger
I know he trained in South Africa - Kyalami and East London I think - gaining his N wings. I know that ordinarily he would have been posted to a squadron and that, given the loss rate in '43, I would probably not be here. However, I think my dad had been found to be rather good at navigating and he was chosen to do the next big thing; 'Master bomber'. Mum and dad were married about a week after the Dam Busters raid.
After that, he still wasn't posted to a squadron, but sent for Pathfinder training. After that, low level a la Armiens and Shell Copenhagen - which he hated, with tour served Mosquito and Beaufighter drivers being told to fly at naught feet to test dad with 'left at the Red Cow' and 'Right at St. Andrews'. Still no squadron and then on to 'Long Distance Over Water', which could only mean the Far East.
Then they dropped the bomb and dad did 'Copper Beating' until he was demobbed in late '45 or early '46 and went back to his drawing board. I was born in December '46! It wasn't until we lost him in 1996 that I realised just how meticulous he was and why he was obviously such a skilled navigator. Why he didn't go to BOAC or any other airline post war, I don't know. They had plenty of top pilots, but probably not too many top navigators.
The thing is, where and how do I start looking for records? So far as I know, he didn't keep his log book - I assume Nav's had them too? - but I would love to know what aircraft he flew and from where.
Also there is one intriguing story from his time in South Africa. On one or perhaps his final cross country navex the pilot - a SAAF Afrikaans pilot - deviated from dads instructions, to do a low level beat up of his family farm ..... and crashed the aeroplane. The pilot demanded that dad falsify his navigation plot to show they should have been over the farm, but dad refused and I believe there was a frightful row. The pilot went on to become a noted South African golfer on the international circuit, but it wasn't Gary Player. Any idea who?
After he was demobbed, dad never flew again until BEA took him to somewhere in German in the late fifties or even sixties, but I guess you could say he had a good war?
Roger
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Danny goes back to the Very Beginning.
harrym,
(Your): "What did you say to affront Sir Basil E ?" The whole sad story is on #3713 p.186.
Looking back on those far-off wartime days, I am curious about the two routes that were open to the air-minded youngsters who were anxious to "do their bit" (preferably as pilots or aircrew) in the RAF.
In your #5514, p.178, you say:
"Re age, I enlisted in August 1942 just short of my 18th birthday". I had my 18th in November '39, so I am almost three years ahead of you in the war time-frame. Conscription for men between 18 and 41 (IIRC) was introduced immediately war broke out, but of course it needed quite some time to put into effect. After we all had first to register (do you remember the little folded "National Registration Identity Cards" ?).
Then, of course, batches of people were only called up as the training machine was ready take them. First, all the Appeals against call-up and the Conscientious Objectors had to be heard, and those in Reserved Occupations weeded out and sent home. As for the rest, although I understand you could state a preference for the Service (and Trade ?) you wanted, the decision of the Recruiting Office was final (from about'43 ?, the worst-case-scenario was to be picked, by lot, as a "Bevan Boy" - down the coal mines !)
Although I was in theory liable for call-up from the date of my 18th birthday, in practice I think the 20 yr olds went first. In any case, I had some time to play with. I could "jump the gun", and apply for service as aircrew in the RAF Volunteer Reserve, or wait for later call-up and state a preference. This was a high-risk strategy. IIRC, some 60% of the intake went into the Army, the remaining 40% divided roughly equally between RAF and RN, and you could never tell which way the cat would jump when your turn came round.
And in my case, the stirring exploits of the RAF in '40 tipped the balance - for me and many another young man - and I applied to the VR in October of that year. When was my age group called-up ? I don't know (the rest of my story is in these pages).
For some reason, which I do not fully understand, in the paperwork the RAF administration kept the VRs in a separate pigeonhole from the call-ups. Up to the time I went abroad, we had little 'VR's sewn below our shoulder eagle tabs; the officers had little brass 'VR's on their lapels. When I came back in '46, these had all gone (but the remnants of the pre-war Auxiliaries, who had been embodied on the outbreak of war, were allowed to keep their 'A's on lapel or shoulder to the end: I thought this unfair). For all practical purposes, of course, we all lived (and many died) together, on the same pay rates, as "Hostilities Only" men.
A good illustration of this working in practice is the sad little list, kindly supplied by Icare9, of the last resting place of one of my room mates at ITW (Ron Sweetlove - RIP):
"6 of the crew are in Rheinberg, don't know if the 7th successfully baled out or if he was RCAF etc.....
CHAPPELL SFW 625153 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE
GRIMSHAW CJ 649407 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE
JENKINSON H 1025847 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
KNOWLES MH 1575223 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
MONTIGUE RJB 1331520 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
SWEETLOVE RS 1029829 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
Looks to have been one of the 6 Lancs lost that night
EDIT: Ouch! Looks as if 100 Squadron lost their C.O. on this aircraft...
McKINNON, JOHN ARNOTT. Rank: Squadron Leader
Service No: J/4965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 100 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19.Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Donald and Ruth Rebecca McKinnon, of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada".
(My) Notes: Two of the six of the (almost certainly) Sergeants are 'RAF'. At that stage of the war, they would be wartime entries who'd been lucky to get their choice, been drafted into the RAF and then volunteered for aircrew (all aircrew were volunteers, however they came in). The other four 'RAFVR', had come in my way. We seem to have had separate number series, too.
The S/Ldr would almost certainly have been the pilot (and been a Flight Commander - the 'C.O. ' would have been a W/Cdr.) It follows that Ron had been "washed out" as a pilot at some stage and was now (maybe) the Nav.
"Additional Information" makes the sad story suddenly personal - just one more family left heartbroken among thousands round the world in those days.
harrym, things may well have been very different three years later - how was it in your day ?
Cheers, everyone, Goodnight.
Danny42C
"Luck" was the Name of the Game.
(Your): "What did you say to affront Sir Basil E ?" The whole sad story is on #3713 p.186.
Looking back on those far-off wartime days, I am curious about the two routes that were open to the air-minded youngsters who were anxious to "do their bit" (preferably as pilots or aircrew) in the RAF.
In your #5514, p.178, you say:
"Re age, I enlisted in August 1942 just short of my 18th birthday". I had my 18th in November '39, so I am almost three years ahead of you in the war time-frame. Conscription for men between 18 and 41 (IIRC) was introduced immediately war broke out, but of course it needed quite some time to put into effect. After we all had first to register (do you remember the little folded "National Registration Identity Cards" ?).
Then, of course, batches of people were only called up as the training machine was ready take them. First, all the Appeals against call-up and the Conscientious Objectors had to be heard, and those in Reserved Occupations weeded out and sent home. As for the rest, although I understand you could state a preference for the Service (and Trade ?) you wanted, the decision of the Recruiting Office was final (from about'43 ?, the worst-case-scenario was to be picked, by lot, as a "Bevan Boy" - down the coal mines !)
Although I was in theory liable for call-up from the date of my 18th birthday, in practice I think the 20 yr olds went first. In any case, I had some time to play with. I could "jump the gun", and apply for service as aircrew in the RAF Volunteer Reserve, or wait for later call-up and state a preference. This was a high-risk strategy. IIRC, some 60% of the intake went into the Army, the remaining 40% divided roughly equally between RAF and RN, and you could never tell which way the cat would jump when your turn came round.
And in my case, the stirring exploits of the RAF in '40 tipped the balance - for me and many another young man - and I applied to the VR in October of that year. When was my age group called-up ? I don't know (the rest of my story is in these pages).
For some reason, which I do not fully understand, in the paperwork the RAF administration kept the VRs in a separate pigeonhole from the call-ups. Up to the time I went abroad, we had little 'VR's sewn below our shoulder eagle tabs; the officers had little brass 'VR's on their lapels. When I came back in '46, these had all gone (but the remnants of the pre-war Auxiliaries, who had been embodied on the outbreak of war, were allowed to keep their 'A's on lapel or shoulder to the end: I thought this unfair). For all practical purposes, of course, we all lived (and many died) together, on the same pay rates, as "Hostilities Only" men.
A good illustration of this working in practice is the sad little list, kindly supplied by Icare9, of the last resting place of one of my room mates at ITW (Ron Sweetlove - RIP):
"6 of the crew are in Rheinberg, don't know if the 7th successfully baled out or if he was RCAF etc.....
CHAPPELL SFW 625153 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE
GRIMSHAW CJ 649407 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE
JENKINSON H 1025847 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
KNOWLES MH 1575223 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
MONTIGUE RJB 1331520 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
SWEETLOVE RS 1029829 100 SQDN 08/04/1943 RAFVR
Looks to have been one of the 6 Lancs lost that night
EDIT: Ouch! Looks as if 100 Squadron lost their C.O. on this aircraft...
McKINNON, JOHN ARNOTT. Rank: Squadron Leader
Service No: J/4965. Date of Death: 08/04/1943. Age: 27.
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force. 100 (R.A.F.) Sqdn
Grave Reference: Coll. grave 2. E. 9-19.Cemetery: RHEINBERG WAR CEMETERY
Additional Information: Son of John Donald and Ruth Rebecca McKinnon, of Red Deer, Alberta, Canada".
(My) Notes: Two of the six of the (almost certainly) Sergeants are 'RAF'. At that stage of the war, they would be wartime entries who'd been lucky to get their choice, been drafted into the RAF and then volunteered for aircrew (all aircrew were volunteers, however they came in). The other four 'RAFVR', had come in my way. We seem to have had separate number series, too.
The S/Ldr would almost certainly have been the pilot (and been a Flight Commander - the 'C.O. ' would have been a W/Cdr.) It follows that Ron had been "washed out" as a pilot at some stage and was now (maybe) the Nav.
"Additional Information" makes the sad story suddenly personal - just one more family left heartbroken among thousands round the world in those days.
harrym, things may well have been very different three years later - how was it in your day ?
Cheers, everyone, Goodnight.
Danny42C
"Luck" was the Name of the Game.
Last edited by Danny42C; 3rd Jun 2014 at 01:17. Reason: Spacing.
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Additional Information
Whilst agreeing with Danny's sentiments regarding Additional Information, I have often wondered as to the criteria for including this information and its source.
In the case of my cousin whilst factually correct it gives an entirely false impression. "Son of Mr. and Mrs. J. H. Wood, of Cassilis, Victoria, Australia."
Jim's mother died about 10 days after his birth and shortly after his father relocated himself and family to his native New Zealand. Which explains why he was a casualty of 75 (N.Z.) Sqn.
In the case of my cousin whilst factually correct it gives an entirely false impression. "Son of Mr. and Mrs. J. H. Wood, of Cassilis, Victoria, Australia."
Jim's mother died about 10 days after his birth and shortly after his father relocated himself and family to his native New Zealand. Which explains why he was a casualty of 75 (N.Z.) Sqn.
Last edited by Pom Pax; 3rd Jun 2014 at 03:11. Reason: As usual spelling & grammar.
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My dad - 'Super Nav' or just Lucky?
Landroger
I would suggest that the first thing you should do (if possible) is to obtain a copy of his service record which will provide you with information on his training and his postings.
Details on how you do this, along with the rules and regulations, can be found at: www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records. It is worth noting that more details are made available if you apply as next of kin.
You will have to pay to obtain the record and my understanding is that it is taking months (rather than weeks) for them to be sent out by the record office, so be prepared for a bit of a wait.
Once you have this record, you can establish where he was posted and obtain the Operations Record Books for the squadron(s) he was involved with from the National Archives.; this should provide details of his sorties and crew.
In the meantime if you can provide any dates, or additional snippets, it may help other forum members find information in their own archives.
I hope this is useful; good luck with your research.
Regards
Pete
I would suggest that the first thing you should do (if possible) is to obtain a copy of his service record which will provide you with information on his training and his postings.
Details on how you do this, along with the rules and regulations, can be found at: www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records. It is worth noting that more details are made available if you apply as next of kin.
You will have to pay to obtain the record and my understanding is that it is taking months (rather than weeks) for them to be sent out by the record office, so be prepared for a bit of a wait.
Once you have this record, you can establish where he was posted and obtain the Operations Record Books for the squadron(s) he was involved with from the National Archives.; this should provide details of his sorties and crew.
In the meantime if you can provide any dates, or additional snippets, it may help other forum members find information in their own archives.
I hope this is useful; good luck with your research.
Regards
Pete
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Re: When was my age group called-up ? I don't know
Danny
Those with a DOB between 1st January 1921 and 31st December 1921 were required to register for National Service on 22nd February 1941.
They would have then followed the procedure that you outlined in your posting 5735.
Also, apologies, but for the purposes of accuracy, I thought it worth pointing out that the National Registration Card was not part of the process of registering for National Service. It was issued during the 1939 census The 1939 National Identity Card .
The following is an example of the National Service Registration card (NS2).
Regards
Pete
Those with a DOB between 1st January 1921 and 31st December 1921 were required to register for National Service on 22nd February 1941.
They would have then followed the procedure that you outlined in your posting 5735.
Also, apologies, but for the purposes of accuracy, I thought it worth pointing out that the National Registration Card was not part of the process of registering for National Service. It was issued during the 1939 census The 1939 National Identity Card .
The following is an example of the National Service Registration card (NS2).
Regards
Pete
Last edited by Petet; 3rd Jun 2014 at 09:54.
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Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet In WW11
Verdana
Back to Terrell, new course 19 and new instructor Al Smith who was the Assistant CFI. He soon gave me my final instrument check and a couple of days afterwards final check with CFI, Mr Van Lloyd. Then I could enjoy the flying without the threat of elimination. Lots of formation flying, cross countries landing away, gunnery and authorised low flying. The long cross country was a three leg one. Terrell to Amarillo, saw my first B29 - huge! Then low level to San Angelou, and finally back to Terrell. Good to land away at USAF Bases, treatment always welcoming and first class. My last trip was a solo night cross country of two and a half hours on the night of D Day 1944. Then Wings Parade with an Air Marshal from Washington who queried my age!! Our "families" and friends were invited and entertained to tea afterwards. It was sad to say goodbye to"families" and friends. My instructor gave me a set of American Wings, and then after a few days it was back to Moncton by train. A few days there and off to Halifax where we boarded the Nieuw Amsterdam, the pride of the Dutch Merchant Navy. 35,000 tons, same as Mauretania, but this time with 8,000 Canadian troops and 200 of us. A very crowded ship, no escort but fast. After eight days we passed a convoy as if it was standing still off Northern Ireland and so to the Clyde and Gourock. The troops were unloaded by lighters and then it was our turn. Train to Harrogate and leave. Quite an experience being in America. They were very generous hosts and we had good training.
[/FONT]
Back to Terrell, new course 19 and new instructor Al Smith who was the Assistant CFI. He soon gave me my final instrument check and a couple of days afterwards final check with CFI, Mr Van Lloyd. Then I could enjoy the flying without the threat of elimination. Lots of formation flying, cross countries landing away, gunnery and authorised low flying. The long cross country was a three leg one. Terrell to Amarillo, saw my first B29 - huge! Then low level to San Angelou, and finally back to Terrell. Good to land away at USAF Bases, treatment always welcoming and first class. My last trip was a solo night cross country of two and a half hours on the night of D Day 1944. Then Wings Parade with an Air Marshal from Washington who queried my age!! Our "families" and friends were invited and entertained to tea afterwards. It was sad to say goodbye to"families" and friends. My instructor gave me a set of American Wings, and then after a few days it was back to Moncton by train. A few days there and off to Halifax where we boarded the Nieuw Amsterdam, the pride of the Dutch Merchant Navy. 35,000 tons, same as Mauretania, but this time with 8,000 Canadian troops and 200 of us. A very crowded ship, no escort but fast. After eight days we passed a convoy as if it was standing still off Northern Ireland and so to the Clyde and Gourock. The troops were unloaded by lighters and then it was our turn. Train to Harrogate and leave. Quite an experience being in America. They were very generous hosts and we had good training.
[/FONT]
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Gaining An R.A.F. Pilots Brevet in WW11
Our pay as Sergeants was now 13/6 per day, probably the same as a Pilot Officer. My flying hours up to here:-
Tiger Moth. dual. 12.15. Solo 10 minutes
Stearman PT17. Dual day. 33.28. Solo. 30.38
Dual night 3.42. Solo. 2.18
AT6. Dual day. 61.27. Solo. Day. 57.39
Dual night. 8.10. Solo night. 13.14
All flights were timed to the minute, due, we believed to "balance of payments" but I don't really believe that.Certainly made our log books look untidy!i
Tiger Moth. dual. 12.15. Solo 10 minutes
Stearman PT17. Dual day. 33.28. Solo. 30.38
Dual night 3.42. Solo. 2.18
AT6. Dual day. 61.27. Solo. Day. 57.39
Dual night. 8.10. Solo night. 13.14
All flights were timed to the minute, due, we believed to "balance of payments" but I don't really believe that.Certainly made our log books look untidy!i