Would the cancellation of FLynx be the end of the Army Air Corps?
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The AH64 is an airborne MBT/AFV and integral to the Land battle space. It should stay with the brown jobs firmly on their ORBAT. Theoretically, JHC could make the A/C available to Air tasks if it was needed; but what the hell would they task it with? Recce, interdiction? hardly likely.
If Land are having problems crewing it or maintaining it, though, that's another matter.
If Land are having problems crewing it or maintaining it, though, that's another matter.
"Theoretically, JHC could make the A/C available to Air tasks if it was needed"
And this is exactly the problem from LAND's point of view. When deployed, the AH could well sit within the JFACC's tasking chain, not the JFLCC's. Therefore, LAND (who also pay for the running of the SH force) would be paying a large chunk of their budget to see the asset taken from them when deployed.
During GW1 and on numerous exercises / ops since, AH have been tasked with more and more AIR-centric roles such as SEAD, CAS, Escort and recce/FAC (the ac has a more than useful sensor suite..) and it needs to be tasked by the ATO. This is not the mass-killing of T-72s that the ac was originally procured for, and, arguably, it is too capable an asset to be at a battalion commanders beck and call "just in case..".
It is NOT a MBT or IFV; it brings the traditional AIR values of range / speed / ubiquity to the close battle, but does not have the permanance of armour / troops. To use it like a tank is to mis-employ a very expensive & capable asset.
If LAND have a problem with AH, it's affording to run it when FRES is in danger, and the distaste that the wider army has for offerring the AAC similar status and career prospects as Para, Guards and RA personnel in order to keep their expensively trained pilots.
And this is exactly the problem from LAND's point of view. When deployed, the AH could well sit within the JFACC's tasking chain, not the JFLCC's. Therefore, LAND (who also pay for the running of the SH force) would be paying a large chunk of their budget to see the asset taken from them when deployed.
During GW1 and on numerous exercises / ops since, AH have been tasked with more and more AIR-centric roles such as SEAD, CAS, Escort and recce/FAC (the ac has a more than useful sensor suite..) and it needs to be tasked by the ATO. This is not the mass-killing of T-72s that the ac was originally procured for, and, arguably, it is too capable an asset to be at a battalion commanders beck and call "just in case..".
It is NOT a MBT or IFV; it brings the traditional AIR values of range / speed / ubiquity to the close battle, but does not have the permanance of armour / troops. To use it like a tank is to mis-employ a very expensive & capable asset.
If LAND have a problem with AH, it's affording to run it when FRES is in danger, and the distaste that the wider army has for offerring the AAC similar status and career prospects as Para, Guards and RA personnel in order to keep their expensively trained pilots.
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Evalu8ter,
Quite right - Aapche is not a "tank with a fan" as a 'Brown Job' once described it to me. (Don't suppose he came up with this term - didn't seem bright enough, quite apart from anything else....
)
Anyway, the point is that it should be properly tasked, as it can provide some very useful capability and may need deconfliction. But is the issue mindset or structure? Though a crab, I could understand the doctrinal case for passing SH to the Army - as the Aussies did 20 years ago.
And if the AAC decide that the Apaches need a half-way house, they can always give them to the rockapes.....
(Or perhaps not!
)
S41
Quite right - Aapche is not a "tank with a fan" as a 'Brown Job' once described it to me. (Don't suppose he came up with this term - didn't seem bright enough, quite apart from anything else....
)Anyway, the point is that it should be properly tasked, as it can provide some very useful capability and may need deconfliction. But is the issue mindset or structure? Though a crab, I could understand the doctrinal case for passing SH to the Army - as the Aussies did 20 years ago.
And if the AAC decide that the Apaches need a half-way house, they can always give them to the rockapes.....
(Or perhaps not!
)S41
I recall rumors 20 years back when the AAC were considering the Apache and then the RAF wanted to jump in and take the Apache and get rid of the Harrier. Then in 96, in farnborough special in Flight International when they were talking about FOAS and the old proposed then stealthy A-12 from USA as a proposed platform for the RAF, then mentioned that the Apache could take the CAS role from the Harrier.
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If AH has "ubiquity", perhaps the circle of inevitability should be forced (in the style of a frazzled parent trying to resolve an argument between two children) by giving it to the Royal Artillery.
Come to think of it, why not go back one more step and ask the Royal Engineers if they'd like it?
Come to think of it, why not go back one more step and ask the Royal Engineers if they'd like it?
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Read an article ref the FLynx and the stupid amount of money for 70 FLynx for the Army and Navy and for less money the Americans are getting 500 plus upgraded Blackhawk/Seahawks and with 20 odd years support package.
Anybody from Lynx IPT care to answer why FLynx is on hold?
Anybody from Lynx IPT care to answer why FLynx is on hold?
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I don't know how much of eric's post is correct, but I do know that the Royal Netherlands Air Force operates the AH-64D Apache
As for the AAC being part of the RAF...
Is it me? or has anyone else figured out that this would cause a serous increase in the wage bill
AAC - Mainly NCO Aircrew
RAF - All Officer Aircrew
could anyone give a ballpark figure for the wage bill increase?
Al
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Considering the rate at which AAC pilots are joining the RAF, then I think the merger has already begun.
AAC - Mainly NCO Aircrew
RAF - All Officer Aircrew
RAF - All Officer Aircrew
richatom,
I heard of AAC NCO pilots transferring to RAF AND gaining commissions in the 90s to gain more experience on Pumas and Chinooks in essence to gain experience in heavy multi engined helis so when they left the services it would get them in good steed for North Sea commercial ops and gained their CPL/ATPL(H)s.
I heard of AAC NCO pilots transferring to RAF AND gaining commissions in the 90s to gain more experience on Pumas and Chinooks in essence to gain experience in heavy multi engined helis so when they left the services it would get them in good steed for North Sea commercial ops and gained their CPL/ATPL(H)s.
Allthenick - that might have been the case with Lynx and Gazelle but nowadays the Apache crews seem to be predominantly officer types. Most of the SNCOs I worked with at Wallop for 7 years are commissioned and the number of true blue AAC officers graduating from Sandhurst increased massively once AH came on the scene.
I believe the AAC have also done away with Cpl pilots (the really cheap option) as well so the wage bill would not be that different - the main difference is that the RAF would be able to offer them a full career flying AH instead of jumping through promotion hoops to keep up with the green army.
Richatom - when we have taken SNCOs, they have been commissioned in the RAF after a short course (or not so short in some cases) at Cranwell.
I believe the AAC have also done away with Cpl pilots (the really cheap option) as well so the wage bill would not be that different - the main difference is that the RAF would be able to offer them a full career flying AH instead of jumping through promotion hoops to keep up with the green army.
Richatom - when we have taken SNCOs, they have been commissioned in the RAF after a short course (or not so short in some cases) at Cranwell.
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Faithless
Whilst I am not in the Lynx IPT per se I am involved with this project and will try albeit briefly to answer your question.
F Lynx has been in the PR 08 planning round since last year and whilst a decision was due to have been made toward the back end of 2007 it was delayed until as it was explained to me March this year. In March I was informed the decision was again delayed until early April and I have since been informed a further delay has been enforced with a possible window in early summer.
One thing I can explain is that it isn't delayed because the project is not up to speed or indeed to the specification wanted by the MoD but simply because it may be reconsidered/reduced/delayed as part of the savings needed to be made over the coming years.
Only the Defence Board and I imagine the cabinet have the answers and believe me there has been absolutely no leakage there, and hence you will have to join the long queue of people wanting to know what is going on.
Whilst I am not in the Lynx IPT per se I am involved with this project and will try albeit briefly to answer your question.
F Lynx has been in the PR 08 planning round since last year and whilst a decision was due to have been made toward the back end of 2007 it was delayed until as it was explained to me March this year. In March I was informed the decision was again delayed until early April and I have since been informed a further delay has been enforced with a possible window in early summer.
One thing I can explain is that it isn't delayed because the project is not up to speed or indeed to the specification wanted by the MoD but simply because it may be reconsidered/reduced/delayed as part of the savings needed to be made over the coming years.
Only the Defence Board and I imagine the cabinet have the answers and believe me there has been absolutely no leakage there, and hence you will have to join the long queue of people wanting to know what is going on.
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Originally Posted by elf
Come to think of it, why not go back one more step and ask the Royal Engineers if they'd like it?
mmm, now there's a thought elf! def' a well guchy bit of kit and would look good on the bar roof...... but it would depend on how much beer you can get in it? not to mention the dems ladders, rolls of 14 gauge, 'hi-bike' kit, shovels etc... oh and the chippy's tool kit?
Ok.. we thought about it, yeah, we'll take em, please deliver to Brompton Bks and leave on the square next to the cannons.....
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GPMG
I hope the RAF don't get the Apache if the AAC go. After all it would be nice to be able to call on a gunship even if there is a hint of moisture in the air.
I hope the RAF don't get the Apache if the AAC go. After all it would be nice to be able to call on a gunship even if there is a hint of moisture in the air.
btw how's the RAF transfer paperwork going?
or is it Dull 
?
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Army pilots flies Army helicopters 'cos they all speak "Army"
"Crab Air" don't do claggy mornings, muddy fields, and as for bullets !!
"Crab Air" don't do claggy mornings, muddy fields, and as for bullets !!
How is the land of the cheese eating surrender monkeys these days?
We already look after their ATC and SE, we may as well get the cabs too
(Just kidding, some of the best blokes (and girls) I've worked with are AAC and REME, although some of thier 'methods' seem pretty 'Melchet' like. Bwaaaaah.
)
I don't think loosing Super Lynx/Future Lynx is an option for them at this late stage, would JHC consider a reduction in order numbers and possibly closing down a 'Old school' Lynx Regt to maintain project funding as this might make more sense?
(Just kidding, some of the best blokes (and girls) I've worked with are AAC and REME, although some of thier 'methods' seem pretty 'Melchet' like. Bwaaaaah.
)I don't think loosing Super Lynx/Future Lynx is an option for them at this late stage, would JHC consider a reduction in order numbers and possibly closing down a 'Old school' Lynx Regt to maintain project funding as this might make more sense?
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I like Teeny Weenie Airways. Although the Army idea of how to run an air-minded organisation can be baffling at times the majority of them seem nice enough chaps and generally they can be trusted not to forget little people who make their ability to let loose their Earthly bonds and soar with eagles possible.
Many RAF aircrew on the otherhand (outside of JHC) still in my ever-so-humble opinion seem to think their kites look after themselves and that the other ranks are there purely to throw salutes their way.
Many RAF aircrew on the otherhand (outside of JHC) still in my ever-so-humble opinion seem to think their kites look after themselves and that the other ranks are there purely to throw salutes their way.