Would the cancellation of FLynx be the end of the Army Air Corps?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting rid of the AAC would be shear folly. The 'Afghan Job' will be with us for 20+ years and right now we need an AAC with a Lynx thats up to the task. Blackhawk - cheaper, tried and tested, just buy it of the shelf. Stuff Wastelands
The lads are threaders with flying the 'Vauxhall Nova'.
The lads are threaders with flying the 'Vauxhall Nova'.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 55 degrees north ish.
Age: 53
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't agree more, I asked this of a 'VIP' on a visit out in Afghan.
'Why the **** are we buying wanky ****ty FLYNX, and not just Blackhawks and fitting RTM322's?'
I wasn't quite so polite about it though.
He said (ad libbing a little here) 'We must stick with a British Manufacturer, to help secure British jobs, blah blah blah'
'Oh, how does that explain WAH1 then?'
'Cough splutter, next question..'
Wankers.
'Why the **** are we buying wanky ****ty FLYNX, and not just Blackhawks and fitting RTM322's?'
I wasn't quite so polite about it though.
He said (ad libbing a little here) 'We must stick with a British Manufacturer, to help secure British jobs, blah blah blah'
'Oh, how does that explain WAH1 then?'
'Cough splutter, next question..'
Wankers.
Stitchbitch,
Unfortunately the money is nowhere near JHC, they have no means to influence a Centre decision. The whole issue over the future of Flynx is not about the capability (or lack of) of the platform but about the savings to Defence as a whole if it were sacrificed (along with other major programmes). Bottom line, we have a yawning gap in Equipment funding over the next few years, the single Services each have sacred cows to protect (CVF, Typhoon T3, FRES) and therefore some projects have to go or a lot of projects will need "salami slicing" so the Politicos can say that no capabilities are being cut.
If Flynx goes there will not be a penny for Blackhaw/NH90 etc - expect it to be spun as part of FML (which conveniently takes a decision out after the next Election..).
Unfortunately the money is nowhere near JHC, they have no means to influence a Centre decision. The whole issue over the future of Flynx is not about the capability (or lack of) of the platform but about the savings to Defence as a whole if it were sacrificed (along with other major programmes). Bottom line, we have a yawning gap in Equipment funding over the next few years, the single Services each have sacred cows to protect (CVF, Typhoon T3, FRES) and therefore some projects have to go or a lot of projects will need "salami slicing" so the Politicos can say that no capabilities are being cut.
If Flynx goes there will not be a penny for Blackhaw/NH90 etc - expect it to be spun as part of FML (which conveniently takes a decision out after the next Election..).
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 932
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WEBF -
It certainly had a licence to do so, and it may have built a demonstrator. However, I'm pretty sure that it was a 1980s air-show one off. Pity, if we have to keep Wastelands in business (why?) then it's probably the best option, especially with RTM322.
But what the hell do I know?
S41
It certainly had a licence to do so, and it may have built a demonstrator. However, I'm pretty sure that it was a 1980s air-show one off. Pity, if we have to keep Wastelands in business (why?) then it's probably the best option, especially with RTM322.
But what the hell do I know?
S41
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if we have to keep Wastelands in business (why?)
Is that a catastrophe? For a Third World nation, no it isn't. It also isn't catastrophic for G8 nation so long as it doesn't fall out with the advanced nations that still build mechanical palm trees.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Question is are we likely to 'fall out' with other countries that produce helicopters (often better quality and cheaper)?
Most helicopter manufacturers which we are likely court in the near and distant future are either based in mainland Europe or the US. One is a part of the world that we are tied to in far more than just purchasing military equipment and the other is a country with which we have had (and no doubt will for many years to come) have a 'special relationship' with.
Of course if we fall out with those two (very unlikely) then there is always the Russians. They will sell weapons to anyone.
The 2nd question is whether the risk of falling out with one of these other helicopter producing nations/states is great enough for us to need to continue to subsidise our own single (seemingly preferred choice no matter how crap the product) helicopter producer.
Yes its unfortunate that 800 people could loose their jobs but I didn't hear many people bemoaning the loss of jobs at many other military equipment suppliers, such as ammunition and small arms manufacturers, many of which closed with far greater job losses.
Most helicopter manufacturers which we are likely court in the near and distant future are either based in mainland Europe or the US. One is a part of the world that we are tied to in far more than just purchasing military equipment and the other is a country with which we have had (and no doubt will for many years to come) have a 'special relationship' with.
Of course if we fall out with those two (very unlikely) then there is always the Russians. They will sell weapons to anyone.
The 2nd question is whether the risk of falling out with one of these other helicopter producing nations/states is great enough for us to need to continue to subsidise our own single (seemingly preferred choice no matter how crap the product) helicopter producer.
Yes its unfortunate that 800 people could loose their jobs but I didn't hear many people bemoaning the loss of jobs at many other military equipment suppliers, such as ammunition and small arms manufacturers, many of which closed with far greater job losses.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: england
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
May I be as bold to ask why so many people on this forum slate Westlands aircraft . Having worked for 20 years on the aircraft build I find it offensive that so many comments are made about the quality of what our boys and girls produce . Are our products really that poorly thought of and would something off the shelf from the manufacturer really be that cheap once the MOD start adding their own wish list to it and chopping and changing things ?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
I don't think the view is that they are poor products per-se, just poor for the price paid.
" I don't think the view is that they are poor products per-se, just poor for the price paid."
Helpful Stacker ~ Nail, Head, Hit!!
I loved flying the Lynx but, apart from being the best anti tank version of an anti submarine helicopter ever made, the fleet is old and tired, the design is old, it's expensive and, in case no one else has noticed, it just can't do what's being asked of it any more - for the same reasons the Wessex isn't being deployed to Afghanistan!!!!!
Helpful Stacker ~ Nail, Head, Hit!!
I loved flying the Lynx but, apart from being the best anti tank version of an anti submarine helicopter ever made, the fleet is old and tired, the design is old, it's expensive and, in case no one else has noticed, it just can't do what's being asked of it any more - for the same reasons the Wessex isn't being deployed to Afghanistan!!!!!
[Cynic]If Sikorsky or AW open a factory to build the airframes in Dunfermline East (or in a marginal Labour constituency), then he may fund them. If not, guess which part of your guess will be accurate.... [/Cynic]
I wouldn't think that the loss of a helicopter manufacturer is that important to this government. A few years back the last UK ship propeller manufacturer was allowed to close. So we can't build a ship of any type without the cooperation of one of our european allies. Although we could go back to paddle wheels!!!!!!!!!
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: england
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a bit confused . Having attended some briefings I was lead to believe the Army Future Lynx would be used in an ISTAR role instead of a troop carrying or anti tank role . So how could an off the shelf blackhawk carry out this task ?
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can add ISTAR equipment to any airframe - I would like it to be on a cost effective one that can do the job 24/7.
145
Blackhawk
Dofan
etc.....etc
Note; not the Lynx at the moment
AAC - click!
Requiem1973 - we have no faith in your company and the product is fun but no use nowerdays; AH has proved the regard wastelands hold us in!!!!! I am alive so you must make an expensive option safe - thanks for that at least.
145
Blackhawk
Dofan
etc.....etc
Note; not the Lynx at the moment
AAC - click!
Requiem1973 - we have no faith in your company and the product is fun but no use nowerdays; AH has proved the regard wastelands hold us in!!!!! I am alive so you must make an expensive option safe - thanks for that at least.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: england
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wouldnt the AW149 not also be built at Westlands , thats once it has been developed as it doesnt even exist yet,well only in he civilian AW139 variant . Thanks for the honest answers thou chaps , we on the shop floor dont ever get to hear feedback from the end user
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bristol
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something i've never understood...
Westlands has always had this status as the UK's generally preferred supplier of helicopters for the sake of keeping a UK manufacturer etc. etc. This has generally resulted in the impression that they don't pull their weight or deliver products that are as good as the competition.
But look at it another way, Westlands has been exposed to decades of the UK MoD's neurotic purchasing methods. Specifying products so tightly that they have to be heavily engineered to fit (Merlin, an ASW heli in a Type 23 hangar?) and then buying hardly any of them when they have managed to meet the spec.
And then future lynx, rumbling along for years with the MoD adding all the toys they want to the list (ISTAR, really?) and Westlands designing it to fit.. then suddenly 'Oh sorry guys, no cash'. It would have been better to tell them that in the first place so that they could have designed an aircraft with mass market appeal that, who knows, might even fit the MoD's requirements.
Which brings me to the AW149, I get the feeling this is very much a behind closed doors sort of design. No doubt at some point the MoD will need some new helicopters and it may be pitched but if you have a generic heli you can bolt bits too it's gonna do better.
Westlands has always had this status as the UK's generally preferred supplier of helicopters for the sake of keeping a UK manufacturer etc. etc. This has generally resulted in the impression that they don't pull their weight or deliver products that are as good as the competition.
But look at it another way, Westlands has been exposed to decades of the UK MoD's neurotic purchasing methods. Specifying products so tightly that they have to be heavily engineered to fit (Merlin, an ASW heli in a Type 23 hangar?) and then buying hardly any of them when they have managed to meet the spec.
And then future lynx, rumbling along for years with the MoD adding all the toys they want to the list (ISTAR, really?) and Westlands designing it to fit.. then suddenly 'Oh sorry guys, no cash'. It would have been better to tell them that in the first place so that they could have designed an aircraft with mass market appeal that, who knows, might even fit the MoD's requirements.
Which brings me to the AW149, I get the feeling this is very much a behind closed doors sort of design. No doubt at some point the MoD will need some new helicopters and it may be pitched but if you have a generic heli you can bolt bits too it's gonna do better.