Would the cancellation of FLynx be the end of the Army Air Corps?
 

The decision on Future Lynx has still not been announced. However if it were to be cancelled, with no replacement for current Lynx or Gazelle, do people think that the Army Air Corps is still a viable organization with just the Apaches, a few fixed wing and the odd other rotary assets here and there?

If not where would these aircraft and people best sit?

Ideas, comments and theories welcome!

5 years tops then subsumed into the RAF.

There is already talk that Apache may be shifted to the RAF meaning the end of the AAC in the not to distant future which may well mean FLynx has been scrapped its so over due its unreal if it was in now or in the next year it may well mean the AAC stays but with the Lynx retirement date between 2010-2011 and Gazelle earlier it may mean the end of the AAC.

Yes. You do not need a Corps to field 36 AH, and no I didn't mean 48 AH!

All it means is that there will be an "upgrade" program for the existing Lynx/Gaz fleet and they will soldier on.

Helicopters do not have a finite life. Hence we still see Alouette 2 and 3 in military service around the world. The German army recently retired an Alouette with around 50 years service under it's belt. The Gaz are around 35 the Lynx less. Spares are an issue, small runs cost more, but this is a year on year maintenance budget, not an aircraft replacement program.

It would actually make more sence to combine the whole army support helicopter force into one unit under the control of the user. Hello army air corps, goodbye RAF SH fleet.

I think this line dates back to the coachload of nurses/Flt attendants arriving imminently at the Unit Disco, LOA being increased, and Warsteiner being DM20 a crate. Mind you, if you repeat a rumour often enough it begins to develop a life of its own.

Spot on, Two's in - similar talk of subsumation was bandied about around the same time as the Lynx was coming into AAC service.

Well its not a Roumour its a suggestion that was put forward to Commander JHC. ''Bin the AAC and give the RAF the Apache'' were the words.

20 years on, same old arguments and rumours. The SH Force will be army because the RAF have given you up etc etc. The AAC can't support Apache etc etc. The question to ask is......... where do the AAC senior officers stand in JHC at the moment? Are there enough senior RN and RAF bods to make a move?? Just joking, there is a place for everyone in the UK armed forces. Each service offers a slightly different product that , believe it or not, makes sure that all bases are covered (only just at times). If you were all one hat, things would be sidelined if the commander of the day thought it unimportant. LSH to the AAC and MSH to the RN/RAF, Apache to.......... any of them ;)

Its probably worth a look at what roughly equivalent army aviation units are operating in Europe.

The French still operate over 300 Gazelle and are looking forward to the NH90 to replace some of the 158 Puma variants. 67 Tigers

The Germans are operating 79 Bell UH1 (1962 design!!!) 185 BO 105, 108 CH 53(40 which are just being upgraded, another 1960's design), 78 Tigers, 75 NH 90 on order.

Italy has 130 Huey variants, 22 A109, 109 Bell 206, 39 Chinook, 60 129, 60 NH 90 on order.

Spain has 40 Huey variants, 13 206, 17 Chinooks, 47 Pumas, 24 Tiger, 58 BO105, NH 90 on order to replace the Hueys and Pumas.

UK 70 Gazelle, 100 Lynx, 67 Apache, 40 future Lynx on order.

The first thing that strikes is how small the AAC is given UK military commitments.

Secondly all the attack helicopters are operated by army aviation units around Europe..

Thirdly none of the other European nations seem to have a problem with the army operating up to Chinook size.

The European committment to the NH 90 has left the UK out in the cold. We should bite the bullet cancel future Lynx, order the NH90 and tell Westland to try and get on board with Boeing for a Chinook replacement. In any case Westlands is now part of the group building the NH 90. We can't continue to support Westland at the taxpayers and the militaries expense. I doubt that there will be much scope for overseas sales of future Lynx so the whole development burden will fall on the UK taxpayer.

If UK governments want to be a world player then they are going to have to stump up the money. I question their priorities, World player or Olympic games? £20billion buys a lot of helicopters. The AAC needs a firm commitment from the government as to it's future, I am not holding my breath!!!!!!!

I dont think there is any stomach amongst senior officers from either force to start a huge bunfight with regards to BH, SH and AH. It would only cause more harm than good and more than likey only result in losses.The NH90 would be great, chances of getting it, slim to none :*

And anyhoo, post JHC/JPA/Jwhatevrnext, does it really matter who operates what ......??

..... if t'Army can run the infantry with about 30 something capbadges, surely we can fly rotary with three .......;)

Gents,
IMHO it would be a RW disaster if the RAF got hold of Apache (speaking as a Crab..) because the pervading sympathy in the RAF would be "why send AH to do a Harriers job and lose a couple of DSOs?" The pressure on RW procurement would get even worse; the trouble is that I don't think the AAC has many friends at the top table of the Army. It's not the right cap-badge, officers do not serve sucessful full careers and AH has taken a lot of LAND's budget that they would rather spend on Tanks, Artillery and mustard cords / ridiculous jumpers.

IMHO if we want to be serious about RW Avn, we need to seperate JHC out into its' own TLB to cut it away from the craven desires of the 3 services. While we're at it, lets put amphib ships and JFH into it as well and create a USMC style fourth service that is capability, not equipment, obsessed and trains for today's conflicts not some military-industrial complex satisfying "virtual" conflict against a peer enemy...

Re The Netherlands:

Apart from the Westland Lynx of the Dutch Navy ALL military helicopters in "Cloggyland" are operated by the Air Force. And that includes the Chinook.

Worse still: when all Lynx helos are replaced by NH90s in a couple of years time (first one about to be delivered!) the "Marine Luchtvaart Dienst MLD"/Dutch Naval Air Service will be merged into some sort of "Joint Helicopter Command" just like the Swedes and the Belgians have now.

I hope the RAF don't get the Apache if the AAC go. After all it would be nice to be able to call on a gunship even if there is a hint of moisture in the air.

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

While we're at it, lets put amphib ships and JFH into it as well and create a USMC style fourth service that is capability, not equipment, obsessed and trains for today's conflicts not some military-industrial complex satisfying "virtual" conflict against a peer enemy...


Err, the US amphibious ships are part of the US Navy.

I believe the USMC is infact part of the USN, and usually get the funding needed throught the USNs budget.

But it is funny that given the amount of taxpayer's money we are currently investing in Typhoon and JSF - Platforms desperately searching for a threat to operate against, that the RAF seemingly have the hots for the AAC's Apaches. I do hope some speccy **** of an accountant gets around to doing a Return on Investment case for Typhoon and JSF against that for RAF Harrier and Support Heli's.

We're DOOMED, DOOMED I tell you. DAAvn havn't given a toss about the men/women or aircraft other than Apache for years and it will either bite them on the arse with the death of the Corps or it was intended from the beginning (although I don't think they are that bright).