Future Lynx A Rip Off?
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Future Lynx A Rip Off?
Copied this over from another forum as I thought it would be of some interest to you all.
Are we being bumped by Augusta Westland?
Sikorsky were recently awarded a contract for a new upgraded version of the Blackhawk helicopter. 537 airframes were ordered at a cost of $7.4 Billion USD. With support and spares packages the cost goes up to $11.8 Billion USD.
Taking the latter figure, this works out at a unit cost of approx $21m USD per aircraft - a little over £10m at the current exchange rate.
For not much more money than we are proposing to spend on approx 70 Future Lynx aircraft to be split between the Army and Royal Navy, the US Army are able to get nearly 8 times as many airframes.
Taking the latter figure, this works out at a unit cost of approx $21m USD per aircraft - a little over £10m at the current exchange rate.
For not much more money than we are proposing to spend on approx 70 Future Lynx aircraft to be split between the Army and Royal Navy, the US Army are able to get nearly 8 times as many airframes.
Are we being bumped by Augusta Westland?
Can't be, the DIS would never let that happen, could it????
There's more to RW costs than just purchasing them. We couldn't afford to crew and run 500 UH-60s unless we seriously got out of the FJ/CVF/FRES world in a big, big way.
That said, 150ish Black / Sea Hawks would probably make more sense than FLynx, but, they ain't made in Somerset. Now, hows about some WS-70s...?
Anyway, FLynx might not be that safe at all (see other threads), and the money won't go into more RW!
There's more to RW costs than just purchasing them. We couldn't afford to crew and run 500 UH-60s unless we seriously got out of the FJ/CVF/FRES world in a big, big way.
That said, 150ish Black / Sea Hawks would probably make more sense than FLynx, but, they ain't made in Somerset. Now, hows about some WS-70s...?
Anyway, FLynx might not be that safe at all (see other threads), and the money won't go into more RW!
Jacko, for once I agree with you! Stark, unattributed figures like this are totally spurious in a UK context. We have an industry to support, and a middle-size military to feed. That is the political, social & economic reality.
FMS UH-60 no thanks (reluctantly), Westland WS-70 with UK sovereignty & kit - yes please!
FMS UH-60 no thanks (reluctantly), Westland WS-70 with UK sovereignty & kit - yes please!
Why is the industry ours to support?
I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.
Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.
I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.
Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.
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Trouble is, the production/refit line set up costs are pretty much the same wether you're buying seven, seventy or seven hundred.
Let's say set up is £50 million and your cabs have a standalone price of £25 each.
10 cost £30 mil each.
50 cost £26 mil each.
500 cost £25 mil each.
Airframes get cheaper the more of 'em you buy. So the quoted figures are apples and oranges comparisons.
As for wether AW are giving us value for money....
Let's say set up is £50 million and your cabs have a standalone price of £25 each.
10 cost £30 mil each.
50 cost £26 mil each.
500 cost £25 mil each.
Airframes get cheaper the more of 'em you buy. So the quoted figures are apples and oranges comparisons.
As for wether AW are giving us value for money....
If you listened to the "buy it off the shelf as it is, from the yanks" crowd, then our AH-64s would certainly have been cheaper. But they'd also have been a deal less useful in Afghanistan, and the price would all have been in $, with little or no benefit to the UK economy, and the exchequer would have recovered nothing in tax, as it has done from WHL and from the WHL workers who built the WAH-64Ds.
And while US manufacturers sometimes produce better kit, American isn't always best. S-92 vs Merlin, for example.
And while US manufacturers sometimes produce better kit, American isn't always best. S-92 vs Merlin, for example.
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H60
Note that the US purchase includes:
1. Relatively cheap, basic UH60's for the US Army
2. Not quite so cheap MH60S's for the US Navy; and
3. Really rather expensive MH60R's for the USN.
Wonder what the actual cost of a 'basic' UH60 is?
1. Relatively cheap, basic UH60's for the US Army
2. Not quite so cheap MH60S's for the US Navy; and
3. Really rather expensive MH60R's for the USN.
Wonder what the actual cost of a 'basic' UH60 is?
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Jack,
I have no idea who you write for and to be honest apart from some very selective productions/articles I genuinely have a real phobia with journos/media that are trying to put either their own hype on a story or some other spin.
But on this one, as someone that has benefitted from the UK going down the UK Westlands route (lets have a look at which DAS our US colleagues are now retrofitting) - and also lets look at the Rolls Royce engines - and then lets look at the support that is being given to ensure that we do fight the capability.
I am certainly no fan of industry - and they sure do take their slice in profits - but from the UK AH experience I am a satisified operator doing the business as we speak.
If we dont keep our own UK industry alive then at best we will be driven into a monopolised Eurocopter buy (because it is European and because AgustaWestlands is included in NHi) and at worst when/if/maybe we actually do need to stand on our 2 feet then all of the skill sets will be gone.
The key is to ensure that whatever is procured it belongs to the UK - and the UK can play around with and bolt on what they like, at short notice, without having to go to a non-UK party to ask permission (and be charged millions for the privelledge).
As to the Future Lynx/Blackhawk debate - how many years have we been doing this? Ask the politicians, and airships and Colonel Blimps what they want to do with the airframe and then make your choice. If it is ISTAR/ISR to cue other assets - Lynx will do just fine. If it is tactical troop lift, then Blackhawks will do just fine. If you are trying to be a jack of all trades then always someone will have to compromise.
This is where I am a realist and if Westlands had the nounce they would be covering all bases with a multitude of options - ranging from Future Lynx through to Blackhawks - with a 1001 re-roling options inbetween (ranging from a pseudo Sea Hawk through to a pseudo HH-60) - same fleet, same cockpit, same training pipeline, just bolt on the extras - plug and play - tools in the golf bag and all the other Chumley Warner sayings that seem to be used by those that actually mean we dont have the cash to do it properly so we will do the best cuff that we can.
P.S. Please please please - before anyone buys anything and starts talking capability, please can they make sure it flys where it is being asked to fly. No point in having a shiney new helicopter if the whole design philosophy was based upon to +15 at Sea Level - reality ain't like that and I am sure that some of our European manufactures may be sorely lacking when asked to prove what the true operational envelope is of the aircraft that they are marketing. Do the figures boys - nothing worst than sending an aircraft fleet home because it is too hot or too high - and nothing worst than having an aircraft designed to lift 17 or so, and only being able to lift 6 when it counts. Surely modern technology and the design boffins must surely be aware of this?
I have no idea who you write for and to be honest apart from some very selective productions/articles I genuinely have a real phobia with journos/media that are trying to put either their own hype on a story or some other spin.
But on this one, as someone that has benefitted from the UK going down the UK Westlands route (lets have a look at which DAS our US colleagues are now retrofitting) - and also lets look at the Rolls Royce engines - and then lets look at the support that is being given to ensure that we do fight the capability.
I am certainly no fan of industry - and they sure do take their slice in profits - but from the UK AH experience I am a satisified operator doing the business as we speak.
If we dont keep our own UK industry alive then at best we will be driven into a monopolised Eurocopter buy (because it is European and because AgustaWestlands is included in NHi) and at worst when/if/maybe we actually do need to stand on our 2 feet then all of the skill sets will be gone.
The key is to ensure that whatever is procured it belongs to the UK - and the UK can play around with and bolt on what they like, at short notice, without having to go to a non-UK party to ask permission (and be charged millions for the privelledge).
As to the Future Lynx/Blackhawk debate - how many years have we been doing this? Ask the politicians, and airships and Colonel Blimps what they want to do with the airframe and then make your choice. If it is ISTAR/ISR to cue other assets - Lynx will do just fine. If it is tactical troop lift, then Blackhawks will do just fine. If you are trying to be a jack of all trades then always someone will have to compromise.
This is where I am a realist and if Westlands had the nounce they would be covering all bases with a multitude of options - ranging from Future Lynx through to Blackhawks - with a 1001 re-roling options inbetween (ranging from a pseudo Sea Hawk through to a pseudo HH-60) - same fleet, same cockpit, same training pipeline, just bolt on the extras - plug and play - tools in the golf bag and all the other Chumley Warner sayings that seem to be used by those that actually mean we dont have the cash to do it properly so we will do the best cuff that we can.
P.S. Please please please - before anyone buys anything and starts talking capability, please can they make sure it flys where it is being asked to fly. No point in having a shiney new helicopter if the whole design philosophy was based upon to +15 at Sea Level - reality ain't like that and I am sure that some of our European manufactures may be sorely lacking when asked to prove what the true operational envelope is of the aircraft that they are marketing. Do the figures boys - nothing worst than sending an aircraft fleet home because it is too hot or too high - and nothing worst than having an aircraft designed to lift 17 or so, and only being able to lift 6 when it counts. Surely modern technology and the design boffins must surely be aware of this?
Last edited by Front Seater; 17th Dec 2007 at 03:36.
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for the navy is future sea lynx a good option? looking at the success of the previous sea lynx and the Australian problems with seasprite I would hope we have more luck with future lynx.
For the army though is it a good platform or would a mix of AW 109's and AW139's not be better for the laison/light transport role?
For the army though is it a good platform or would a mix of AW 109's and AW139's not be better for the laison/light transport role?
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Why is the industry ours to support?
I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.
Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.
I resent the notion that unless the MOD buys overpriced, half finished and normally late arriving products from the South West of England, the economy will collapse and the world will stop turning.
Either they can offer a high quality, value for money product, delivered on time and with good aftersales service, or they can't. If they can't, the MOD propping them up is only delaying the inevitable.
Because that is their job. It is not the MOD supporting British Industry, its the Government...and that is their job. Why should the tax payers money (your money and my money) help to provide some yank in the U.S. with a job and financial security?
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wasn't the blackhawk looked at as a potential Wessex replacement? and if its so good why are the Aussies buying NH90 and not more Blackhawk?
From what i've heard and seen the Irish are doing very well with the AW139.
Besides which why should we keep Americans in jobs.
From what i've heard and seen the Irish are doing very well with the AW139.
Besides which why should we keep Americans in jobs.
Besides which why should we keep Americans in jobs.
Why should the tax payers money (your money and my money) help to provide some yank in the U.S. with a job and financial security?
Look at what is going on in the world. My view is very much that I would rather see a guy in the SW of England out of a job, than a British Squaddie/Airman in a box.
I suggest those who champion the UK Defence industry are probably not Austin Rover drivers.
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is US defence procurment run on a best kit basis?
nope it has to be a US product or manufactured in the USA! and some of the US kit I played with in the gulf was absolute rubbish
nope it has to be a US product or manufactured in the USA! and some of the US kit I played with in the gulf was absolute rubbish
F15 F16 F18 C130 C17 UH-1 UH-60 MH53 CH47 AC130
All of the above are best of class (for their time) and available off the shelf.
Nimrod, Harrier, Hawk, TSR2 (standing by for incoming), Belfast
All world class leaders of their time.
Nimrod 2000, F3, EH101, A400M?
The recent projects just don't hit the mark. The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft as I have said, but it is late and overbudget.
The Merlin is proving itself, but was slow to start and will never be what the customer wanted ie: The Army.
Ask the taxpayers if they want the kudos of a second rate defence industry, and some secured jobs at Yeovil, or whether they want truckloads of tax saved by buying an equally capable product off the shelf. I dare you!
All of the above are best of class (for their time) and available off the shelf.
Nimrod, Harrier, Hawk, TSR2 (standing by for incoming), Belfast
All world class leaders of their time.
Nimrod 2000, F3, EH101, A400M?
The recent projects just don't hit the mark. The Typhoon is an impressive aircraft as I have said, but it is late and overbudget.
The Merlin is proving itself, but was slow to start and will never be what the customer wanted ie: The Army.
Ask the taxpayers if they want the kudos of a second rate defence industry, and some secured jobs at Yeovil, or whether they want truckloads of tax saved by buying an equally capable product off the shelf. I dare you!
OK, I'll bite..............
Nimrod, Harrier, Hawk, TSR2 (standing by for incoming), Belfast
All world class leaders of their time.
All world class leaders of their time.
If it was not deliberate then cough, splutter.
LL
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MiniGun
I think your missing the point. the reason the price looks so attractive is that you have to buy it off the shelf. The MOD rarely do. they tinker, they change and the cost goes through the roof - or, they sit in hangars!
If, you had your way and we had no SW factory, do you think the price would still be competitive? Or, do you think someone might be tempted to put the price up because there was no competition? Then when you look at your £1 pound-wasted-on-defence and where it went how much of it actually came back into the economy? None? So now the price is the price? So in reality, with shrinking budgets, AW actually probably stops you flying MIL 8's. And lets face it, despite the safety record and the string for seat belts, lack of intercom etc, they are a good solid cab. Actually far better than the Blackhawk. So why not them instead? How about a few Helix for the RN?
Or is it that you just want American?
I think your missing the point. the reason the price looks so attractive is that you have to buy it off the shelf. The MOD rarely do. they tinker, they change and the cost goes through the roof - or, they sit in hangars!
If, you had your way and we had no SW factory, do you think the price would still be competitive? Or, do you think someone might be tempted to put the price up because there was no competition? Then when you look at your £1 pound-wasted-on-defence and where it went how much of it actually came back into the economy? None? So now the price is the price? So in reality, with shrinking budgets, AW actually probably stops you flying MIL 8's. And lets face it, despite the safety record and the string for seat belts, lack of intercom etc, they are a good solid cab. Actually far better than the Blackhawk. So why not them instead? How about a few Helix for the RN?
Or is it that you just want American?
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Another thing to consider is spares production. The Blackhawk is a currently produced aircraft, with a large pool of parts availability. When you guys deploy to a joint environment, if you're flying the same aircraft that the Aussies and we Yanks are flying, you can always "borrow" parts from us to keep your machines flying. This is already the norm for the Aussie 47's flying in the 'Stan. The real question is what do you want your new birds to do? I ask since the 60 excels at being the super Huey. When you're moving less than 12 troops over less than 100nm, it is second to none. Once you start throwing all sorts of special operations equipment on it that you run into weight and power problems.