Future Lynx A Rip Off?
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While I think Merlin for Junglie, ASaC etc is good idea, I'm not so sure pulling them from RAF inventory is wise. Even if you sent everyone qualified to bolster Dark Blue ops so as to avoid wasted training and hours, you'd just be pilling more strain on the other fleets.
A lot of the aircrew for 78 Sqn are RN anyway. Speed up the throughput of RN as RAF are posted onto other types (which all have manning deficiencies). Transition 28/78 to RN manning over 2 years and then rename them 845/846.
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Ahhhh now we see minigundiplomat's agenda. Strip the army of assets and funding to give to the RAF and increase the light blue empire.
We were discussing the Flynx an army/navy project yes the Ah version will be in Joint helecopter command but as we see the "Joint" in JHC and most other things means RAF empire building.
The US has operated Blackhawk, Apache and Chinook as an integrated force under Army command and army operated for years and maybe as part of the longer term planning of support it should be examined as the way ahead in the long term.
Now Merlin is already operated in the maritime assualt role by the Italian Navy so this shouldn't be a huge problem for seaking replacements. As to Puma well is Blackhawk big enough to take over from it or will the cabin bulk out sooner. Blackhawk is an excellent idea to replace Lynx AH9 and with the AH60 variant carrying Hellfire it would be a useful force multiplyer in the non apache equipped sqns and a UK modified version with the same engines as the apache would integrate well. Could Flynx serve in the recce/laison role? and the light transport role move to Blackhawk? yet again the RAF looses track of the roles lynx operates in.
as to a way forward in the next 5-10yrs
845/847 Merlin HC5
846 Apache/Blackhawk/Flynx
772 Merlin HC5/HAR4
AAC
Flynx Laison/Recce
Blackhawk Laison/LT Transport
Apache in gunship role
RAF
Chinook HC2 Heavy transport
Merlin HC3 28/33 Transport
Merlin HC4 84
Longer term Chinook HC4 ie CH47F for AAC
and strataegic Helecopter force Merlin SF support transfares to FAA along with the land based variants. RAF looses support helecopter role
We were discussing the Flynx an army/navy project yes the Ah version will be in Joint helecopter command but as we see the "Joint" in JHC and most other things means RAF empire building.
The US has operated Blackhawk, Apache and Chinook as an integrated force under Army command and army operated for years and maybe as part of the longer term planning of support it should be examined as the way ahead in the long term.
Now Merlin is already operated in the maritime assualt role by the Italian Navy so this shouldn't be a huge problem for seaking replacements. As to Puma well is Blackhawk big enough to take over from it or will the cabin bulk out sooner. Blackhawk is an excellent idea to replace Lynx AH9 and with the AH60 variant carrying Hellfire it would be a useful force multiplyer in the non apache equipped sqns and a UK modified version with the same engines as the apache would integrate well. Could Flynx serve in the recce/laison role? and the light transport role move to Blackhawk? yet again the RAF looses track of the roles lynx operates in.
as to a way forward in the next 5-10yrs
845/847 Merlin HC5
846 Apache/Blackhawk/Flynx
772 Merlin HC5/HAR4
AAC
Flynx Laison/Recce
Blackhawk Laison/LT Transport
Apache in gunship role
RAF
Chinook HC2 Heavy transport
Merlin HC3 28/33 Transport
Merlin HC4 84
Longer term Chinook HC4 ie CH47F for AAC
and strataegic Helecopter force Merlin SF support transfares to FAA along with the land based variants. RAF looses support helecopter role
Your seeing an agenda that isn't there. As for stripping the Army, I said above we should give the Army whatever they feel is the best recce platform. I don't see how that is stripping them?
As far as my own fleet, I recommended no increases other than the existing conversion of Mk3 and increase in aircrew.
The Sea Kings need replacing, the Merlin was designed to go to sea. The RN get 2 Sqns of newish airframes.(Incidentally, the same ones you keep raving about).
The RAF replace the aging (and overdue) Puma, and the Merlins ceded to the RN with Blackhawk.
I don't see what the light blue make out of this that the other two services don't?
Time to stop watching the X Files?
As far as my own fleet, I recommended no increases other than the existing conversion of Mk3 and increase in aircrew.
The Sea Kings need replacing, the Merlin was designed to go to sea. The RN get 2 Sqns of newish airframes.(Incidentally, the same ones you keep raving about).
The RAF replace the aging (and overdue) Puma, and the Merlins ceded to the RN with Blackhawk.
I don't see what the light blue make out of this that the other two services don't?
Time to stop watching the X Files?
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Because Minigundiplomat you like many other RAF support helo types don't see the full role of Lynx it is also ment to be used as a laison and recce helo yes but its also ment to be used as a light transport. Moving things like small patrols, op's , FOO and FAC teams and in the old days Milan and Javelin SAM teams it was always to small dimensionally and power wise for this.
The Blackhawk would be more useful in this role and because it is more capable as well it would improve the flexibility of the army.
The Blackhawk would be more useful in this role and because it is more capable as well it would improve the flexibility of the army.
No I think it is you that do not see the division. AAC operate AH, anything that blows stuff up ie: TOW Lynx now the Apache. SH operate anything that carries stuff. That is the happy medium and both services are happy. It is handy that the Lynx can conduct FAC drops, and especially VIPTAX tasks, especially as sending a 20 tonne helicopter for a Brigadier is a bit of a waste, but we shouldnt be choosing an airframe based on that spec.
If the AAC want BlackHawk as a recce platform, I hope they get it. It would be further commonality of stores. But if you read the posts above, you will see that many don't.
If the AAC want future Lynx, I hope they get it. My whole thrust throughout this thread has been that the Services should get what they need, not what Wastelands are offering.
I have planned and executed entire battle group airlifts, and so I know exactly what the SH force needs. Some elements may not agree, but my opinion is informed.
I don't know exactly what the AAC want, as I am not an operator. But I think they should get EXACTLY what they want.
I hope, that is clear enough even for you NURSE!
If the AAC want BlackHawk as a recce platform, I hope they get it. It would be further commonality of stores. But if you read the posts above, you will see that many don't.
If the AAC want future Lynx, I hope they get it. My whole thrust throughout this thread has been that the Services should get what they need, not what Wastelands are offering.
I have planned and executed entire battle group airlifts, and so I know exactly what the SH force needs. Some elements may not agree, but my opinion is informed.
I don't know exactly what the AAC want, as I am not an operator. But I think they should get EXACTLY what they want.
I hope, that is clear enough even for you NURSE!
Im sure if you could rustle up 600 or so aircrew and a fifteen hundred licensed engineers, it probably would be yours by now. But you can't !
There was a scheme when the Apache entered service to offer JT's/SAC's/Cpl's the rank of Sgt if they transferred to the REME. Remember how many takers there were? None.
How many people do you think would just say, 'OK, I'm now in the Army'?
I think you know the answer?
There was a scheme when the Apache entered service to offer JT's/SAC's/Cpl's the rank of Sgt if they transferred to the REME. Remember how many takers there were? None.
How many people do you think would just say, 'OK, I'm now in the Army'?
I think you know the answer?
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Minigundilomat obviously the Lynx AH9 and the Bell 212's in Brunei and Belize have completley passed you by then never desiged to carry TOW and used as a Light transport. Maybe tomorrow the AAC couldn't rustle up the aircrew or the REME the engineers but 10-15 years down the line if it was planned properley.
The US army with its huge Helecopter force functions well and there is no reason the AAC shouldn't be able to either or do it better and I would sugest it would integrate into the army chain much better as well. And the Army and Land forces are the principle users.
But then of course it keeps lots of RAF officers employed not only flying but supporting.
The US army with its huge Helecopter force functions well and there is no reason the AAC shouldn't be able to either or do it better and I would sugest it would integrate into the army chain much better as well. And the Army and Land forces are the principle users.
But then of course it keeps lots of RAF officers employed not only flying but supporting.
Have a bit of courage in your convictions then, and crack on.
Funny, in this world of lean etc, this idea has never occured before. Oh yes, the perennial debate. SH to the Army, Rest of the RAF to the RN.
Having rambled over and over about the importance of UK defence industry, you have now found a new drum to bang. There is already a thread open under this heading.
I can't really be arsed to spend Xmas arguing the toss. If the AAC taking over SH was such a good idea, JHC would have implemented it, or at least floated the idea over the last Cash Starved 7 years.
If it decides thats the way ahead, thats fine, but it will happen without me. Ill be a long way away spending my pension.
Funny, in this world of lean etc, this idea has never occured before. Oh yes, the perennial debate. SH to the Army, Rest of the RAF to the RN.
Having rambled over and over about the importance of UK defence industry, you have now found a new drum to bang. There is already a thread open under this heading.
I can't really be arsed to spend Xmas arguing the toss. If the AAC taking over SH was such a good idea, JHC would have implemented it, or at least floated the idea over the last Cash Starved 7 years.
If it decides thats the way ahead, thats fine, but it will happen without me. Ill be a long way away spending my pension.
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I have heard a rumour that Future Lynx will be cancelled in the New Year. Being a non-naval man, I cannot comment for good or ill on the implications for the RN, but as an Army-man (although not AAC), I can see that there might be other alternatives. However, knowing the lack of foresight displayed by Messers Brown and Browne, I can there being future RW ISTAR platform for the AAC. Would anyone care to comment?
There are some other issues here.
The primary driver for AAC Flynx is "Find". However, the MoD, including the Army, have spent stacks of cash, under UOR, buying UAVs to do the "Find Role" at a fraction of the cost of new helicopters. The Treasury might therefore point out that the manned RW ISTAR role is redundant (remember, they are not Operators) and, as stated before, we cannot justify a Colonel's taxi in this financial climate. If Flynx was cut it would leave the AAC as AH and D4K plus the COMO 212/412s. With the reduction in pilots watch for a pro rata cut in training.
The RN needed a Lynx size platform for the older DD/FFs that couldn't cope with a Merlin. In the future the withdrawl of the remaining T42/T22s (are there any T22s left?) to be replaced by T23/T45 et al will cure the problem (I believe)and a multi-role Merlin could fill the gap (though it is big & expensive).
Ergo, the rationale for Flynx is based, increasingly, on two concepts. One is the maintainance of the AAC at something like todays size and the other is the desire to keep Westlands going. I do believe that the price that Finmeccanica paid GKN for the rest of the company was heavily influenced by the Flynx programme - I'd imagine that they'd be looking for some reparation if it was binned.
The worrying thing is that, unlike the Commanche cancellation, not a penny of any FLynx savings is likely to be recapitalised into other RW assets. Let's hope they decide to cut something else; any suggestions?
The primary driver for AAC Flynx is "Find". However, the MoD, including the Army, have spent stacks of cash, under UOR, buying UAVs to do the "Find Role" at a fraction of the cost of new helicopters. The Treasury might therefore point out that the manned RW ISTAR role is redundant (remember, they are not Operators) and, as stated before, we cannot justify a Colonel's taxi in this financial climate. If Flynx was cut it would leave the AAC as AH and D4K plus the COMO 212/412s. With the reduction in pilots watch for a pro rata cut in training.
The RN needed a Lynx size platform for the older DD/FFs that couldn't cope with a Merlin. In the future the withdrawl of the remaining T42/T22s (are there any T22s left?) to be replaced by T23/T45 et al will cure the problem (I believe)and a multi-role Merlin could fill the gap (though it is big & expensive).
Ergo, the rationale for Flynx is based, increasingly, on two concepts. One is the maintainance of the AAC at something like todays size and the other is the desire to keep Westlands going. I do believe that the price that Finmeccanica paid GKN for the rest of the company was heavily influenced by the Flynx programme - I'd imagine that they'd be looking for some reparation if it was binned.
The worrying thing is that, unlike the Commanche cancellation, not a penny of any FLynx savings is likely to be recapitalised into other RW assets. Let's hope they decide to cut something else; any suggestions?
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I'm assuming that as a 'Find' platform, FLynx is also envisaged to possess an armed recce and C2 function. Is the proposed mix of Apache and FLynx intended to mirror the USMC's AH-1Z and UH-1Y fleet in terms of functionality? Again, please excuse my ignorance being non-AAC, but as an Army Officer, I really should know more about Aviation.
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Given the present poorly percieved climate that the Labour Party is experiencing, combined with the general public now seemingly aware of the lack of military equipment that "Salami Slicing" of the "options" is far more likely to happen.
My two-pennorth -
RN/RM don't want the Merlin HC3 or 3A for that matter. They don't fold and therefore can't be easily operated from ships. I know that CHF spend most of their time these days on pure land ops, but a fleet of 20-odd a/c that can't be deployed on a maritime platform is not going to aid their flexibility.
I don't believe there's another Merlin HMA buy in the pipeline (at least not at any sensible unit price), so a decision to bin Flynx (dark blue) is going to have major repercussions on the FAA ability to support small ships flights. 815 / 702 are currently supposed to provide ac for 18-20 DD/FF plus IPS, whereas the Merlin force is (nominally) supposed to do two big ship dipper squadrons, plus small ships flights for the 2087 fitted T23s, plus RFAs as necessary. From a surviving force of 42 airframes (less after CSP) I think they'd struggle to do the entire DD/FF fleet and in any case, why use a 15 tonne monster with no ASuW capability on a non-ASW platform?
Don't get me wrong - if hunting subs is your game (and yes they're still there - ask Messrs Putin & Dinnerjacket) accept no substitute, Merlin is your bird. If (by some miracle) funds are found for FRC maritime (whatever the programme is called now) then get some folding Merlin along the lines of the Italian variant, but it's simply overkill in some small ship situations.
Still, the way we're going at the minute, we'll run out of ships before MoD makes a decision....
RN/RM don't want the Merlin HC3 or 3A for that matter. They don't fold and therefore can't be easily operated from ships. I know that CHF spend most of their time these days on pure land ops, but a fleet of 20-odd a/c that can't be deployed on a maritime platform is not going to aid their flexibility.
I don't believe there's another Merlin HMA buy in the pipeline (at least not at any sensible unit price), so a decision to bin Flynx (dark blue) is going to have major repercussions on the FAA ability to support small ships flights. 815 / 702 are currently supposed to provide ac for 18-20 DD/FF plus IPS, whereas the Merlin force is (nominally) supposed to do two big ship dipper squadrons, plus small ships flights for the 2087 fitted T23s, plus RFAs as necessary. From a surviving force of 42 airframes (less after CSP) I think they'd struggle to do the entire DD/FF fleet and in any case, why use a 15 tonne monster with no ASuW capability on a non-ASW platform?
Don't get me wrong - if hunting subs is your game (and yes they're still there - ask Messrs Putin & Dinnerjacket) accept no substitute, Merlin is your bird. If (by some miracle) funds are found for FRC maritime (whatever the programme is called now) then get some folding Merlin along the lines of the Italian variant, but it's simply overkill in some small ship situations.
Still, the way we're going at the minute, we'll run out of ships before MoD makes a decision....
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
One of the more obvious flaws in the FLynx role for the AAC is the "Find" capability. Other than a spiffy glass cockpit and a laser designator, it has very little capability improvement over the current Lynx. The problem is you now have a platform with the most basic of equipment "finding" the targets for the "fix and destroy" Apaches that - quite rightly - have every bell and whistle going. So now you have recce missions relying on other people's intel or the Mk 1 eyeball looking for targets that a platform with Radar, RFI, HIDAS, TADS/PNVS, impressive stand off RF and Laser weapons will come and kill. If the threat is low-tech that may not be as much of a problem as if it is high-tech, shoot back, bad guys.
Why wouldn't you employ at least the same level of sensor capability in finding a target as you would destroying it? That's why FLynx does not match the "find" role, but probably will make a good utility aircraft (again).
Why wouldn't you employ at least the same level of sensor capability in finding a target as you would destroying it? That's why FLynx does not match the "find" role, but probably will make a good utility aircraft (again).
Good comments - some snapshots back.
Merlin Mk1 currently has no ASuW capability. However, fitting it with a viable DAS, M3M/M134 fit and Guided Missile (Hellfire / Brimstone et al) + seeker/targetting pod is quite achievable. As for the number of airframes, though CSP I believe fixes 32 to Mk2 standard, the rest could be re-roled to the T23/T25 fleet as required. Remember, we are going to lose more DD/FFs in the future so Grey Lynx will not need to be replaced on a 1 to 1 basis. In addition, for disaster relief etc, a Merlin will have far, far greater utility than a Flynx.
Not a Boffin - There is little reason why the Mk3/3As can't be retrofitted with folding heads/tails. However, they would need an uprated transmission to offset the increased AUM.
If cost were no option, then the use of AAC Flynx in the same way as the USMC use Cobra/Huey would be ideal. However, remember that the AAC rarely fight alone (unlike the USMC) and would deploy with other utility assets to hand (ie Puma / SK4 at present). With the valid points that Two's In has made above it makes Flynx look more precarious. The critical enabler at the moment is Lift; we simply haven't got enough and FLynx will contribute very little to the cause (Think Canadian Griffons and 20 Ship Company Lifts...).
Armed Recce, according to accountants, can be done by the AH; C2 can be done by any available platfrom with a palletised system (Puma/Merlin/SK etc).
Again, if money were no object, let's have Flynx to offload other assets. However, Money is the object and this could be a big slice of salami....
Merlin Mk1 currently has no ASuW capability. However, fitting it with a viable DAS, M3M/M134 fit and Guided Missile (Hellfire / Brimstone et al) + seeker/targetting pod is quite achievable. As for the number of airframes, though CSP I believe fixes 32 to Mk2 standard, the rest could be re-roled to the T23/T25 fleet as required. Remember, we are going to lose more DD/FFs in the future so Grey Lynx will not need to be replaced on a 1 to 1 basis. In addition, for disaster relief etc, a Merlin will have far, far greater utility than a Flynx.
Not a Boffin - There is little reason why the Mk3/3As can't be retrofitted with folding heads/tails. However, they would need an uprated transmission to offset the increased AUM.
If cost were no option, then the use of AAC Flynx in the same way as the USMC use Cobra/Huey would be ideal. However, remember that the AAC rarely fight alone (unlike the USMC) and would deploy with other utility assets to hand (ie Puma / SK4 at present). With the valid points that Two's In has made above it makes Flynx look more precarious. The critical enabler at the moment is Lift; we simply haven't got enough and FLynx will contribute very little to the cause (Think Canadian Griffons and 20 Ship Company Lifts...).
Armed Recce, according to accountants, can be done by the AH; C2 can be done by any available platfrom with a palletised system (Puma/Merlin/SK etc).
Again, if money were no object, let's have Flynx to offload other assets. However, Money is the object and this could be a big slice of salami....
Agreed.
Merlin isn't probably the gold plated solution, but ticks a number of boxes, and is produced in the UK. Watch the Treasury put 2+2 together, save some money and find a bodgit and scarper company to engineer blade fold.
I hope not, but would not be suprised.
Merlin isn't probably the gold plated solution, but ticks a number of boxes, and is produced in the UK. Watch the Treasury put 2+2 together, save some money and find a bodgit and scarper company to engineer blade fold.
I hope not, but would not be suprised.
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Originally Posted by Evaluater
Merlin Mk1 currently has no ASuW capability.
TOG