Future Lynx A Rip Off?
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"Or is it that you just want American?"
Nope he, like all SH and AAC types who are at the muck and bullets end, unlike so many who post here are being let down hugely by "the system", and they simply want something that works NOW...............not much to ask is it
Nope he, like all SH and AAC types who are at the muck and bullets end, unlike so many who post here are being let down hugely by "the system", and they simply want something that works NOW...............not much to ask is it
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Of course it isn't too much to ask! But, taking REMF's Mi-8 example. Are the users really so happy taking a cab that has no mission system, integrated DAS, string for seatbelts, etc, etc into battle?? I very much doubt it!! So we tinker, beacuse we are asked to and because it makes the aircraft safer and more capable; obviously this costs ££.
The phrase, 'can't have your cake and eat it springs to mind'.
Re: FLynx. You just can't compare the prices as stated. Some include support/training/GBTE etc, some don't. If someone could provide some qualified costs for the US procurement then we could compare apples with apples.
PS - I've seen the Op comparison of UH-60 Vs BRH and some stat's just didn't look good for the FLynx (quite poo actually, especially in ability to deal with weight growth.)
The phrase, 'can't have your cake and eat it springs to mind'.
Re: FLynx. You just can't compare the prices as stated. Some include support/training/GBTE etc, some don't. If someone could provide some qualified costs for the US procurement then we could compare apples with apples.
PS - I've seen the Op comparison of UH-60 Vs BRH and some stat's just didn't look good for the FLynx (quite poo actually, especially in ability to deal with weight growth.)
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The SH community are being let down not by the products more by the supply ethos that has recently been brought into the British military. Just in time works reasonably well in industry as it isn't tied up in beauracratic knots by the civil service but is useless for the things we are trying to do with our defence forces. The days of expensive holdings of large numbers of spare parts will have to return or dramaticall streamiline the procurement process which will mean losing value for money.
As to the argument well we're in ops today with countries flying Blackhawk and Chinook yes and what happens tomorrow when we're flying Blackhawk and Chinook and the people we work with are all flying NH90?
We need to procure the best available for our budget and maximise the involvement of British industry as Sikorsky will offer Blackhawk at a cheap price to take westlands out of the game then watch the prices rise for spares and updates and Will the US give us all the code access we need to update or adapt them?
As to the argument well we're in ops today with countries flying Blackhawk and Chinook yes and what happens tomorrow when we're flying Blackhawk and Chinook and the people we work with are all flying NH90?
We need to procure the best available for our budget and maximise the involvement of British industry as Sikorsky will offer Blackhawk at a cheap price to take westlands out of the game then watch the prices rise for spares and updates and Will the US give us all the code access we need to update or adapt them?
Mate, get a ticket to Kandahar.
The people we are working with are using Chinook/Blackhawk/Pavehawk. There isn't an NH90 in sight.
The EU aren't renowned for sending their choppers on package deals, and the only country with the balls to do so, the Cloggies, are operating Chinook/Cougar.
A lot of you are the problem. You sit on the computer pontificating about the best helicopters to use, writing articles blah blah blah.
I spend my life around Helicopters, every day, most nights. I know what works, and what won't.
Most of all, I listen to the customer on the ground. Maybe a few more people should.
Thank you Seldom
The people we are working with are using Chinook/Blackhawk/Pavehawk. There isn't an NH90 in sight.
The EU aren't renowned for sending their choppers on package deals, and the only country with the balls to do so, the Cloggies, are operating Chinook/Cougar.
A lot of you are the problem. You sit on the computer pontificating about the best helicopters to use, writing articles blah blah blah.
I spend my life around Helicopters, every day, most nights. I know what works, and what won't.
Most of all, I listen to the customer on the ground. Maybe a few more people should.
Thank you Seldom
wasn't the blackhawk looked at as a potential Wessex replacement? and if its so good why are the Aussies buying NH90 and not more Blackhawk?
I am pretty sure most in the ADF wanted Blackhawk however part of the MRH (NH 90) contract included an Australian assembly line (read jobs) and an Australian EC120 or 130 assembly line (read more Jobs).....politics!!
I am pretty sure most in the ADF wanted Blackhawk however part of the MRH (NH 90) contract included an Australian assembly line (read jobs) and an Australian EC120 or 130 assembly line (read more Jobs).....politics!!
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Now why do we keep having to rehash the other things involved in defence procurment. Factors to be included are what benifits the whole country not just the armed forces. If sikorsky becomes the main helecopter supplier to the UK armed forces what happens to the employees of agusta-westlands and their subcontractors?
westlands and their sub contractors go bust the employees need either new jobs or retraining or lots of taxpayers money to provide some form of employment in somerset. That tax money is diverted from somewhere (Probably the defence budget) so the forces have less money to spend on new toys.
With the loss of the high paying technology jobs tax revenues fall. less tax money to spend on defence more defence jobs lost both service people and supporting industries and incrementally less and less money becomes available.
Not an answer to the imediate problems but to procure blackhawks you wouldn't see them till at least 2015
westlands and their sub contractors go bust the employees need either new jobs or retraining or lots of taxpayers money to provide some form of employment in somerset. That tax money is diverted from somewhere (Probably the defence budget) so the forces have less money to spend on new toys.
With the loss of the high paying technology jobs tax revenues fall. less tax money to spend on defence more defence jobs lost both service people and supporting industries and incrementally less and less money becomes available.
Not an answer to the imediate problems but to procure blackhawks you wouldn't see them till at least 2015
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This thread is turning into a mix of a teach-in on UK Defence Policy and UK economics. Yes, it would be nice to have a fleet of Blackhawks/Merlins/Chinooks etc parked outside and ready to go (when did you last see a big SH formation in the UK?), but it isn't going to happen. Firstly, the UK committed itself to retaining the ability to produce helicopters - cue Westlands and secondly, Westlands plays to its audience - they know we only buy small amounts of helicopters and they don't plan on going bust do they? Westlands are going to look to recover their costs on the small buy of UK helicopters - for example 22 Merlins for the RAF and 44 Merlins for the RN. The aircraft are thus more expensive and the hand-wringing members of the IPTs who were gobsmacked by the costs then save money on spares - can any one see a flaw in the plan?
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compressorstall I have to agree with you we have to bite certain bullets and if we want to keep a helecopter manufacturing capabiliy and push costs down we either need to force westlands into a merger with eurocopter or sikorsky.
Or invest in the next generation of support helecoper like the aw149 and draw up a specification that will beat any of its competitors and have the world beating its way to our dorr to buy the best on the market.
but food for thought how many of the current support helecopter fleet problems could have been solved if the govt had invested the money in spares instead of northern rock?
And maybe if there had been some comitment to fighting terrorism in the 1990's the SH fleet might have had WS60's operating in 72Sqn. But minigundiplomat I don't need to go to kandahar to witness how hard SH tries to support I witnessed it for 30 years in Northern Ireland and am now alot more cynical when it comes to fighting terrorism for the Americans who denied support to our war on terror and interfered to the point were the only course open was to sell out to those same terrorists and treat them better than the service men and women who fought against them. And have taken part in some of this govts military misadventures. And now living and working in the real world understand how little the people of this country actually care as long as it doesn't affect their house prices or there is an acceptable level of violence or their taxes aren't going up.
Or invest in the next generation of support helecoper like the aw149 and draw up a specification that will beat any of its competitors and have the world beating its way to our dorr to buy the best on the market.
but food for thought how many of the current support helecopter fleet problems could have been solved if the govt had invested the money in spares instead of northern rock?
And maybe if there had been some comitment to fighting terrorism in the 1990's the SH fleet might have had WS60's operating in 72Sqn. But minigundiplomat I don't need to go to kandahar to witness how hard SH tries to support I witnessed it for 30 years in Northern Ireland and am now alot more cynical when it comes to fighting terrorism for the Americans who denied support to our war on terror and interfered to the point were the only course open was to sell out to those same terrorists and treat them better than the service men and women who fought against them. And have taken part in some of this govts military misadventures. And now living and working in the real world understand how little the people of this country actually care as long as it doesn't affect their house prices or there is an acceptable level of violence or their taxes aren't going up.
Nurse, I applaud your sincerity, but you are slightly naive. Economics depends upon competition, and buying inferior products from a home grown source in order to ensure it's survival doesn't work in the long run.
Think back to the 80's, and remember all the Sherpas and Montego's in MT? Didn't help Austin Rover much in the long run.
There has to be healthy competition. Outside of the UK, how many other countries operate the Mk3 Merlin? 3 or 4?
How many operate the Blackhawk, and how many will operate the NH90? Everyone else pretty much. Why?
Well either the Merlin is a very expensive top of the range model they can't afford, or they know it's ok at best and overpriced.
Only they know what they based the decision to shop elsewhere, but I can make an educated guess.
Exchange drinks last night. Not well this morning.
Think back to the 80's, and remember all the Sherpas and Montego's in MT? Didn't help Austin Rover much in the long run.
There has to be healthy competition. Outside of the UK, how many other countries operate the Mk3 Merlin? 3 or 4?
How many operate the Blackhawk, and how many will operate the NH90? Everyone else pretty much. Why?
Well either the Merlin is a very expensive top of the range model they can't afford, or they know it's ok at best and overpriced.
Only they know what they based the decision to shop elsewhere, but I can make an educated guess.
Exchange drinks last night. Not well this morning.
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Am i niave but if you look closley at the list of Blackhawk users many have been bought using military aid credits from the US and restricted to US products so a fair way of selling helecopters? Great way of inflating the sales. Merlin isn't in the same class as Blackhawk and really the Blackhawk isn't in the same class as Puma or Lynx either it would fall between both. However the RAF were offered Westland built Blackhawks back in the 80's-90's and so where the AAC the RAF declined them because they were happy with Puma/Wessex and the AAC wanted Lynx AH9 (what was the point of thease?) But also money was tight at this time.
If the Blackhawk was so good why has the USAF been trying to get rid of them since they were introduced and why has the USMC resisted buying them?
on chinook c-sar thread the comments on the Merlin are very enlightening that the only thing wrong according to one poster was lack of power. And he also comments on the Blackhawk as well.
Yes compition is a good thing and in open compition both Merlin and NH90 are doing very. Merlin is in service with UK, Portugal, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Japan and the USMC as Marine 1. I also think its on order for morroco or algeria. NH90 France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Australia, New Zealand,Greece,Netherlands and probably a few more. It will be interesting to see how AW139 does and AW149. AW139 has only entered service with the Irish but they appear to be very please with it. Now as to British Leyland products do you remember a vehicle called the Land Rover and a Truck called the Bedford all were leyland products we still use them.
If as you seam to wish sikorsky to take over all helecopter production and it becomes a monoploy will it still produce good helecopters?
If the Blackhawk was so good why has the USAF been trying to get rid of them since they were introduced and why has the USMC resisted buying them?
on chinook c-sar thread the comments on the Merlin are very enlightening that the only thing wrong according to one poster was lack of power. And he also comments on the Blackhawk as well.
Yes compition is a good thing and in open compition both Merlin and NH90 are doing very. Merlin is in service with UK, Portugal, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Japan and the USMC as Marine 1. I also think its on order for morroco or algeria. NH90 France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Australia, New Zealand,Greece,Netherlands and probably a few more. It will be interesting to see how AW139 does and AW149. AW139 has only entered service with the Irish but they appear to be very please with it. Now as to British Leyland products do you remember a vehicle called the Land Rover and a Truck called the Bedford all were leyland products we still use them.
If as you seam to wish sikorsky to take over all helecopter production and it becomes a monoploy will it still produce good helecopters?
Nurse,
if you had ever driven a Bedford from Cranwell to Otterburn, you would realise that yes we have a lot, but it's far from great.
My point was that all helicopters have merits, even the Merlin. However, we should not be procuring aircraft on the basis of what is good for UK industry. We should be procuring them on what is best for Cpl Bloggs and his patrol on the outskirts of Musa Qala.
if you had ever driven a Bedford from Cranwell to Otterburn, you would realise that yes we have a lot, but it's far from great.
My point was that all helicopters have merits, even the Merlin. However, we should not be procuring aircraft on the basis of what is good for UK industry. We should be procuring them on what is best for Cpl Bloggs and his patrol on the outskirts of Musa Qala.
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NURSE.
I think that those forces who haven't been satisfied with that aircraft are few and far between.
USAF, from the beginning they wanted more from that aircraft than it was ever intended; hence it has a poor reputation. Without an upgraded engine/transmission package it was always going to struggle in certain parts of the world, doing the type of missions that had traditionally been done by the Daddy, MH53
.
The USMC wouldn’t have bought UH60 to replace the venerable Huey for as long as the Snake was the Attack helicopter of choice. Given that Apache was never intended to go on ship the Snake was always going be the obvious winner. Therein USMC with Huey and Cobra commonality of parts, engines etc
. The US Army has, to a lesser degree, the same with AH64 and UH60 
.
For utility with survivability JHC will look for a long time to find a better package than UH60, for either Puma or Lynx replacement
. One issue with the Lynx replacement is it will have to integrate a ISTAR C2 capability; UH 60 can do C2 in spades, but a recce helicopter it will never profess to be.
I think that those forces who haven't been satisfied with that aircraft are few and far between.
USAF, from the beginning they wanted more from that aircraft than it was ever intended; hence it has a poor reputation. Without an upgraded engine/transmission package it was always going to struggle in certain parts of the world, doing the type of missions that had traditionally been done by the Daddy, MH53
.The USMC wouldn’t have bought UH60 to replace the venerable Huey for as long as the Snake was the Attack helicopter of choice. Given that Apache was never intended to go on ship the Snake was always going be the obvious winner. Therein USMC with Huey and Cobra commonality of parts, engines etc
. The US Army has, to a lesser degree, the same with AH64 and UH60 .For utility with survivability JHC will look for a long time to find a better package than UH60, for either Puma or Lynx replacement
. One issue with the Lynx replacement is it will have to integrate a ISTAR C2 capability; UH 60 can do C2 in spades, but a recce helicopter it will never profess to be.
A view from another side.
Companies like Westland don’t just design helicopters on the off chance they’ll find a customer. They do market research which, in practice, means listening long and hard to what potential customers want (and in the UK, that’s the MoD primarily). My involvement with Merlin finished in 1987 but my recollection is that the sponsor (DOR(Sea)) was over the moon at getting exactly what he wanted from the air vehicle. That is, a dual role helicopter – ASW primary and Commando secondary. That this has changed over the years is not the fault of either side.
As a project manager, I can honestly say I have not once been screwed over by Westland. Not even an attempt. If you knew how contracts are costed and, especially, post-costed, you’d realise it’s simply not worth it. It would surprise you how often they say “Here’s some money back, we found a better way that saved us money”. Time and again they have pulled both MoD and their (MoD’s) preferred suppliers out of the deep stuff. I would happily have them as prime on any job, something I can’t say about some of the big boys. Keep the politics out and beancounters away, and they deliver every time.
Buying from the US may sound attractive and, yes, they’ll supply at a good price. This reflects economy of scale, not a Westland rip-off. But over 80% (and rising) through-life costs are support. Once we’ve got the kit, be it aircraft or equipment, we take our place in the queue. To many aviation companies in the US, the residents of some remote townships represent a bigger customer base than MoD UK! In a commercial sense, we’re nobodies and are treated accordingly. In a technical sense, they take unilateral design decisions, or exclude you because you’re a small minority, which means you either stump up for something you don’t want or need, or your design goes off at a tangent and is not maintained or supported. There is a cost-effective solution to this, but MoD don’t fund it and want to ditch the process. Another story.
Just trying to be fair to a company who has never let me down. There’s a lot to be said for that being the only selection criteria.
Companies like Westland don’t just design helicopters on the off chance they’ll find a customer. They do market research which, in practice, means listening long and hard to what potential customers want (and in the UK, that’s the MoD primarily). My involvement with Merlin finished in 1987 but my recollection is that the sponsor (DOR(Sea)) was over the moon at getting exactly what he wanted from the air vehicle. That is, a dual role helicopter – ASW primary and Commando secondary. That this has changed over the years is not the fault of either side.
As a project manager, I can honestly say I have not once been screwed over by Westland. Not even an attempt. If you knew how contracts are costed and, especially, post-costed, you’d realise it’s simply not worth it. It would surprise you how often they say “Here’s some money back, we found a better way that saved us money”. Time and again they have pulled both MoD and their (MoD’s) preferred suppliers out of the deep stuff. I would happily have them as prime on any job, something I can’t say about some of the big boys. Keep the politics out and beancounters away, and they deliver every time.
Buying from the US may sound attractive and, yes, they’ll supply at a good price. This reflects economy of scale, not a Westland rip-off. But over 80% (and rising) through-life costs are support. Once we’ve got the kit, be it aircraft or equipment, we take our place in the queue. To many aviation companies in the US, the residents of some remote townships represent a bigger customer base than MoD UK! In a commercial sense, we’re nobodies and are treated accordingly. In a technical sense, they take unilateral design decisions, or exclude you because you’re a small minority, which means you either stump up for something you don’t want or need, or your design goes off at a tangent and is not maintained or supported. There is a cost-effective solution to this, but MoD don’t fund it and want to ditch the process. Another story.
Just trying to be fair to a company who has never let me down. There’s a lot to be said for that being the only selection criteria.
It's nice to get an in depth view from a different angle. Thanks tucumseh.
The economy of bulk you refer to, and the importance of being high up on the list for ongoing support is spot on.
The Chinook is a prime example of this, with the UK being the second largest operator after the US DoD. We have always enjoyed good support from Boeing Vertol.
Maybe this bulk buy would have been better spent on one airframe rather than mixed Puma/Merlin fleet. As it is, we are down the list for two manufacturers, three when FLynx comes onstream.
The economy of bulk you refer to, and the importance of being high up on the list for ongoing support is spot on.
The Chinook is a prime example of this, with the UK being the second largest operator after the US DoD. We have always enjoyed good support from Boeing Vertol.
Maybe this bulk buy would have been better spent on one airframe rather than mixed Puma/Merlin fleet. As it is, we are down the list for two manufacturers, three when FLynx comes onstream.
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Another issue comes in at specfication planning the MoD can't just say we will buy from company x as this is illegal unger EU compition rules it can get round this by drawing up very tight spefications. I would also sugest if the Mod had added crash survivability to the same or higher spec than the Blackhawk the winner would have to factor that in.
I do agree about Flynx. The naval version yes is following on a good piece of kit but the land version leaves alot to be desired could this have been sorted by better specifcation? And the governments desire to restrict the number of types in service to allow for bigger buys of spare parts and reductions of scale. I would also sugest there would be some ownership debates about Blackhawks replacing the Lynx and Puma even in a "Joint" helecopter command. And as AHQHI656SQN says it isn't a starter for a recce helecopter.
Minigundiplomat if JHC was to go down the route of Blackhawk which I do see the case (but not the only one ) would it be of the shelf or an update of the S-70-19? would it be fitted with RTM332 engines and UK avionics as other uk helecopters?
tucumseh as someone who has experienced the inside of the industry could Westland revive the Blackhawk lisence and build in the UK along the lines of the WAH64 and would they be able to export them?
And how long would it take to go from selection to inservice? How much money would be wasted in introducing and supporting another type in service and how much export potential would be lost?
Personally I would like to see Agusta-Westland design a helecopter in the AW149 with hgher spec than the blackhawk/NH90 and be so good that it would seriously challange sikorsky and give them a real headache in the Blackhawk replacement compition.
I do agree about Flynx. The naval version yes is following on a good piece of kit but the land version leaves alot to be desired could this have been sorted by better specifcation? And the governments desire to restrict the number of types in service to allow for bigger buys of spare parts and reductions of scale. I would also sugest there would be some ownership debates about Blackhawks replacing the Lynx and Puma even in a "Joint" helecopter command. And as AHQHI656SQN says it isn't a starter for a recce helecopter.
Minigundiplomat if JHC was to go down the route of Blackhawk which I do see the case (but not the only one ) would it be of the shelf or an update of the S-70-19? would it be fitted with RTM332 engines and UK avionics as other uk helecopters?
tucumseh as someone who has experienced the inside of the industry could Westland revive the Blackhawk lisence and build in the UK along the lines of the WAH64 and would they be able to export them?
And how long would it take to go from selection to inservice? How much money would be wasted in introducing and supporting another type in service and how much export potential would be lost?
Personally I would like to see Agusta-Westland design a helecopter in the AW149 with hgher spec than the blackhawk/NH90 and be so good that it would seriously challange sikorsky and give them a real headache in the Blackhawk replacement compition.
Nurse
My apologies but I can’t answer your questions because I don’t know – perhaps only those at the top in Westland and MoD do, if they have considered the issues. The only thing I’d say is that much would depend on the terms of the license, and point out that very often these licenses are procured at the insistence of MoD, who pay for them under separate contract.
As for how much money would be wasted, I’m sure you know that this is formal MoD policy and be assured they will try to maximise performance.
My apologies but I can’t answer your questions because I don’t know – perhaps only those at the top in Westland and MoD do, if they have considered the issues. The only thing I’d say is that much would depend on the terms of the license, and point out that very often these licenses are procured at the insistence of MoD, who pay for them under separate contract.
As for how much money would be wasted, I’m sure you know that this is formal MoD policy and be assured they will try to maximise performance.
Simple Answer?
28/33/230/78 Re-Equipped with off the shelf Blackhawk, retro fitted for H+H.
28/78 Merlins go to the RN as a Sea King replacement with a further option to purchase. (Commonality of stores with the Pingers?)
Further Sqn formed at Odiham when the Mk3 arrives (Aircrew only to provide decrease in long standing commitments per Sqn)
Army to get what they feel appropriate as a recce platform. Kiowa?
Right then, just world peace and a cure for HIv....
28/33/230/78 Re-Equipped with off the shelf Blackhawk, retro fitted for H+H.
28/78 Merlins go to the RN as a Sea King replacement with a further option to purchase. (Commonality of stores with the Pingers?)
Further Sqn formed at Odiham when the Mk3 arrives (Aircrew only to provide decrease in long standing commitments per Sqn)
Army to get what they feel appropriate as a recce platform. Kiowa?
Right then, just world peace and a cure for HIv....
So your solution to a shortfall in SH lift is to take the 22 (soon to be 28) Merlins that were designed for and are now proving themselves in the Battlefield Support role and give them to the NAVY!!! Wow you're a genius
'Commonality of stores with the Pingers' is being sorted by joint deep servicing down in cider country. The most frustrating thing is that the RN got 44 Mk1s to start with!
'Commonality of stores with the Pingers' is being sorted by joint deep servicing down in cider country. The most frustrating thing is that the RN got 44 Mk1s to start with!
A walk down the flight line at KAF reveals line upon line of BlackHawks. Ive yet to see a Merlin.
The Merlin is doing a good job in Iraq, albeit a very flat part of Iraq. If there were any serious hills in S Iraq, I don't think you'd be telling me what a great job there doing.
The RN needs a replacement for the Junglies. A few Carson Blades aren't going to see them through another 25 years.
But then do the FAA need any helicopters? Theres very little of a fleet, the RM are always asking for Wokkas and they spend very little time at sea.
The Merlin is doing a good job in Iraq, albeit a very flat part of Iraq. If there were any serious hills in S Iraq, I don't think you'd be telling me what a great job there doing.
The RN needs a replacement for the Junglies. A few Carson Blades aren't going to see them through another 25 years.
But then do the FAA need any helicopters? Theres very little of a fleet, the RM are always asking for Wokkas and they spend very little time at sea.