Eurofighter a dud - London plans to reduce order for obsolescent fighter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,771
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Archimedes,
Maybe I mis-read your ealier mail, but I thought you were pro- Typhoon - now with the comment about internal weapon carriage ( Something i've always been a great fan of, except for the Harrier which due to engine design doesn't mind what you hang on it ! ) I'm confused as to what you're promoting - certainly on the 'first night of war' being steathy etc I'd expect no pylons etc, on an F-35 - but a busy night on landing for a role change !
The Typhoon will be stuck with pylons & rely on jamming ( where have I heard that before ? ) so if in an allied force will again be at the back of the attacking fleet...
Before anyone says it, I know from chats with people involved that 'stealth' in it's many forms is no magic answer either.
Maybe I mis-read your ealier mail, but I thought you were pro- Typhoon - now with the comment about internal weapon carriage ( Something i've always been a great fan of, except for the Harrier which due to engine design doesn't mind what you hang on it ! ) I'm confused as to what you're promoting - certainly on the 'first night of war' being steathy etc I'd expect no pylons etc, on an F-35 - but a busy night on landing for a role change !
The Typhoon will be stuck with pylons & rely on jamming ( where have I heard that before ? ) so if in an allied force will again be at the back of the attacking fleet...
Before anyone says it, I know from chats with people involved that 'stealth' in it's many forms is no magic answer either.
DZ - Apologies for lack of clairity.
The point I was attempting to make was based on LM's statement about the JCA's range being vastly superior to Typhoon. I see now that it should have asked:
"Is your range comparison with F-35's underwing pylons fitted or not?"
I was endeavouring to ascertain whether or not LM had considered that factors such as whether JCA had pylons fitted, how many pylons Typhoon had fitted (seven or nine? With what hanging from them?) , etc, etc might have implications for comparing the brochure figures on range that he's referring to. Was his comparison fair, based on that sort of consideration, or a half-baked generalisation based on the LMart brochure?
That was all, but in haste I obviously wasn't as clear as I might have wished. I will admit to be pro-Typhoon in so far as all the info I have from those who fly it and from forward air control types who have done some practice with it suggests that it is an excellent aircraft that will do an awfully good job for the RAF - but we need enough of them. I don't, however, think that it is an all-singing, all-dancing panacea in the way that some spotters in another place I occasionally visit to see how well Jackonicko's faring in the face of their ignorance think that their precious Rafale is...
At the same time, I am equally pro-JSF/JCA. And we need enough of them as well. If we're talking about Typhoon and JCA having service lives of 35-40 years, imposing cuts on either is a bad idea. However, as things stand, it appears that the dear old Treasury will leave the RAF with not quite enough Typhoons before setting about the MoD so that we end up with not quite enough JCA either.
The point I was attempting to make was based on LM's statement about the JCA's range being vastly superior to Typhoon. I see now that it should have asked:
"Is your range comparison with F-35's underwing pylons fitted or not?"
I was endeavouring to ascertain whether or not LM had considered that factors such as whether JCA had pylons fitted, how many pylons Typhoon had fitted (seven or nine? With what hanging from them?) , etc, etc might have implications for comparing the brochure figures on range that he's referring to. Was his comparison fair, based on that sort of consideration, or a half-baked generalisation based on the LMart brochure?
That was all, but in haste I obviously wasn't as clear as I might have wished. I will admit to be pro-Typhoon in so far as all the info I have from those who fly it and from forward air control types who have done some practice with it suggests that it is an excellent aircraft that will do an awfully good job for the RAF - but we need enough of them. I don't, however, think that it is an all-singing, all-dancing panacea in the way that some spotters in another place I occasionally visit to see how well Jackonicko's faring in the face of their ignorance think that their precious Rafale is...
At the same time, I am equally pro-JSF/JCA. And we need enough of them as well. If we're talking about Typhoon and JCA having service lives of 35-40 years, imposing cuts on either is a bad idea. However, as things stand, it appears that the dear old Treasury will leave the RAF with not quite enough Typhoons before setting about the MoD so that we end up with not quite enough JCA either.
Archimedes
Add to this, not quite enough carriers, helicopters, Nimrods, A400M's etc etc and it makes you wonder when it will all end in tears.
However, as things stand, it appears that the dear old Treasury will leave the RAF with not quite enough Typhoons before setting about the MoD so that we end up with not quite enough JCA either.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Archimedes
Quote:
However, as things stand, it appears that the dear old Treasury will leave the RAF with not quite enough Typhoons before setting about the MoD so that we end up with not quite enough JCA either.
Add to this, not quite enough carriers, helicopters, Nimrods, A400M's etc etc and it makes you wonder when it will all end in tears.
But I bet between now and when Dave ? does enter service the Politicians and the Civil Servants will both have had at least enough money in inflationary beating pay rises to pay for both tranche 3 and Dave.
And yes I am Bl00dy cynical and Pi$$ed off with both of them.
Quote:
However, as things stand, it appears that the dear old Treasury will leave the RAF with not quite enough Typhoons before setting about the MoD so that we end up with not quite enough JCA either.
Add to this, not quite enough carriers, helicopters, Nimrods, A400M's etc etc and it makes you wonder when it will all end in tears.
But I bet between now and when Dave ? does enter service the Politicians and the Civil Servants will both have had at least enough money in inflationary beating pay rises to pay for both tranche 3 and Dave.
And yes I am Bl00dy cynical and Pi$$ed off with both of them.
Ok, so I might well be 'Mr Thicky', but I have a few points/questions.
According to the link provided on:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291637
we will only start ordering JSF in any quantities in FY 2014, for delivery in 2016+. Now I'm not sure when we pay for aircraft, when we order then or accept delivery? So when exactly are we going to order/pay for Tranche 3 of Typhoon? I don't know, but would have thought it before 2014/2016! JSF orders/deliveries, and therefore presumably payments, go on until about 2027 according to the link - by which time Typhoon should all be in service!
It strikes me that this is just about saving money period! And the arguement about JSF vs Typhoon is just a typical Sir Humphrey smokescreen!!
According to the link provided on:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=291637
we will only start ordering JSF in any quantities in FY 2014, for delivery in 2016+. Now I'm not sure when we pay for aircraft, when we order then or accept delivery? So when exactly are we going to order/pay for Tranche 3 of Typhoon? I don't know, but would have thought it before 2014/2016! JSF orders/deliveries, and therefore presumably payments, go on until about 2027 according to the link - by which time Typhoon should all be in service!
It strikes me that this is just about saving money period! And the arguement about JSF vs Typhoon is just a typical Sir Humphrey smokescreen!!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
It certainly shows why CAS was so keen to push Typhoon earlier this year.
having got where it has got it would be foolish to make any decisions before it reaches an initial FOC. I say initial as the FOC will be based on what they thought they wanted. Once it has a FOC then you can be sure that more roles and capablity will become apparent - just need money and political will.
Now if you can neuter the product early enough you can bypass the inevitable argument for capabilty enhancement.
having got where it has got it would be foolish to make any decisions before it reaches an initial FOC. I say initial as the FOC will be based on what they thought they wanted. Once it has a FOC then you can be sure that more roles and capablity will become apparent - just need money and political will.
Now if you can neuter the product early enough you can bypass the inevitable argument for capabilty enhancement.
Waste & Blundering in the Military.
For a good read & plenty of reasons why we should not be wasting our hard earned taxes on Typhoons, JSF, A400M's, antiquated Nimrods, aircraft carriers,etc., buy a copy of "Lions, Donkeys & Dinosaurs" by Lewis Page-ISBN: 978-0-09-948442-4.
Then write to your MP, ineffectual though he/she is to seek the sacking of the MOD procurement branch & the equally ineffectual Service Chiefs.
After that, start pushing for a Combined Defence Force on Israeli lines & get rid of the majority of the upper tiers of moribund Senior Staff Officers along with their inflated salaries/pensions etc.
When you've done that, recruit more "grunts", give them a decent wage, decent boots, body armour, & a new rifle which works every year!
Then write to your MP, ineffectual though he/she is to seek the sacking of the MOD procurement branch & the equally ineffectual Service Chiefs.
After that, start pushing for a Combined Defence Force on Israeli lines & get rid of the majority of the upper tiers of moribund Senior Staff Officers along with their inflated salaries/pensions etc.
When you've done that, recruit more "grunts", give them a decent wage, decent boots, body armour, & a new rifle which works every year!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
I can't believe someone has recommended 'Lions, Donkeys & Dinosaurs' as a good read.
The only thing I would recommend it for is stand in duties if your usual soft, strong and very, very long supplies have run out.
Lewis Page stands out proud in a very competitive field as the most chip on shoulder wearing, mis-informed and basically clueless ex-serviceman to have written a 'if I was in charge' type book ever. Quite frankly I felt I soiled my own eyes just reading the tripe although I'm glad I did as it allows me to speak with some authority on the contents of his comic, an advantage I have over those who apparently read it, are serving members of the Armed Forces over 17 years old and still believe its a good read.
The only thing I would recommend it for is stand in duties if your usual soft, strong and very, very long supplies have run out.
Lewis Page stands out proud in a very competitive field as the most chip on shoulder wearing, mis-informed and basically clueless ex-serviceman to have written a 'if I was in charge' type book ever. Quite frankly I felt I soiled my own eyes just reading the tripe although I'm glad I did as it allows me to speak with some authority on the contents of his comic, an advantage I have over those who apparently read it, are serving members of the Armed Forces over 17 years old and still believe its a good read.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In the Doghouse...
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cancelling the most advanced variant of Typhoon is surely going to be a backward step, a Tiffie with full strike capability will be more effective than a Tornado GR4 in terms of payload especially, while in close air support.
Typhoon's persistance will be nowhere near matched by the JSF unless the MoD buys the SDB. Bear in mind, development of the VTOL F-35B is far from a satisfactory stage, the engine, gearbox and vertical lift system is so complex, its questionable whether the technology will be mature and reliable enough for shipborne operations. There are still far too many questions over JSF, whereas Eurofighter is ready to go, and will shortly get its chance to be proven. Hopefully the Saudi order will knock down the price per airframe for the MoD to re-think this idea.
Typhoon's persistance will be nowhere near matched by the JSF unless the MoD buys the SDB. Bear in mind, development of the VTOL F-35B is far from a satisfactory stage, the engine, gearbox and vertical lift system is so complex, its questionable whether the technology will be mature and reliable enough for shipborne operations. There are still far too many questions over JSF, whereas Eurofighter is ready to go, and will shortly get its chance to be proven. Hopefully the Saudi order will knock down the price per airframe for the MoD to re-think this idea.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South Central UK
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a gentle reminder that the F35B, operationally, has a STOVL capability, not VTOL. VL may also be a bit of a 'missing link' operationally unless basic weight can be reduced, and/or thrust at both ends can be increased.
lm
lm
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Bristol
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO
In the present conflict's we need a capable platform NOW, with time on station and accuracy. For the treasury to tell MOD that Tranche 3 is not possible due to budget, should be combatted by CAS, et al telling Mr Brown that the RAF PLC can't support Army PLC.
As for binning the most capable variant, as I understand it the capability of full A-A and A-G is software implimentation along with trials, testing and training by the OEU/OCU.
Bit then again when have shortages stopped politicians deploying troops?
In the present conflict's we need a capable platform NOW, with time on station and accuracy. For the treasury to tell MOD that Tranche 3 is not possible due to budget, should be combatted by CAS, et al telling Mr Brown that the RAF PLC can't support Army PLC.
As for binning the most capable variant, as I understand it the capability of full A-A and A-G is software implimentation along with trials, testing and training by the OEU/OCU.
Bit then again when have shortages stopped politicians deploying troops?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Derbyshire
Age: 67
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reminds Me
M.R.C.A ? (Tornado) Military Requirements Come Afterwards... all starting to sound like we have been here before with our not state of the art flying hardware doesnt it?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: N London
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not see NETMA allowing the UK to pull out and pay off its contract just like that. The workshare was/is based on the number of aircraft purchased. The UK government would have to in theory also compensate company such as EADS, Ellectronica etc. for taking work from their share. It probably would cost the same as having them if not more to cancel T3
The workshare was/is based on the number of aircraft purchased. The UK government would have to in theory also compensate company such as EADS, Ellectronica etc. for taking work from their share. It probably would cost the same as having them if not more to cancel T3
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
FWIW, IMHO, it is a good deal selling Tranche 3 to the Saudis.
We needed the Typhoon yesterday and we need it today but we do not need it tomorrow. The day after tomorrow, OTOH, is when we might need it.
In other words, lets get tranche 2 up to speed and into operations. Once it is more mature, once we know how much attrition replacement we need, then is the time to order tranche 4.
For sure we will need the Typhoon in years to come but we would be better off with next year's model than stuck with last year's one.
The longer the production run the better.
Or looking at what Archimedes says about Austria:
The saudis would be happy as they get Typhoon sooner. The UK Govt are happy as they can defer a purchase and CAS will be happy if he gets all his Typhoons by the time he is telling everyone he needs them - 2025
We needed the Typhoon yesterday and we need it today but we do not need it tomorrow. The day after tomorrow, OTOH, is when we might need it.
In other words, lets get tranche 2 up to speed and into operations. Once it is more mature, once we know how much attrition replacement we need, then is the time to order tranche 4.
For sure we will need the Typhoon in years to come but we would be better off with next year's model than stuck with last year's one.
The longer the production run the better.
Or looking at what Archimedes says about Austria:
The saudis would be happy as they get Typhoon sooner. The UK Govt are happy as they can defer a purchase and CAS will be happy if he gets all his Typhoons by the time he is telling everyone he needs them - 2025
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 17th Sep 2007 at 17:29.
The new Austrian govt decided that it wanted to pull out of buying Typhoon but then changed its mind when the cost of doing so was pointed out.
AIUI, they compromised so that they now receive some Tranche 1 ex-Luftwaffe aircraft. The Luftwaffe is happy, since it gets the Tranche 2 aircraft that would have gone to Austria and ends up with about a dozen newer airframes; the Austrians are happy since they don't spend quite as much and Eurofighter is happy because they sell the aircraft. Or something like that, anyway.
AIUI, they compromised so that they now receive some Tranche 1 ex-Luftwaffe aircraft. The Luftwaffe is happy, since it gets the Tranche 2 aircraft that would have gone to Austria and ends up with about a dozen newer airframes; the Austrians are happy since they don't spend quite as much and Eurofighter is happy because they sell the aircraft. Or something like that, anyway.