Eurofighter a dud - London plans to reduce order for obsolescent fighter
TAC Int Bloke
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Why won't people see that Russian SAM systems are more hype than reality,
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LM,
I agree that the F-35 programme won't fail, although I still think there is a small chance the B could get chopped.
However, who is Chuck?!!
If you mean Chuck Yeager, I'd suggest that little of his operational experience is of relevance today.
I ask you again to answer 2 simple questions:
What is your profession?
What military experience do you have?
Nevertheless, I give you one thing. You're brightening up PPRUNE with your comedy posts!
Archie, if you're talking about me, I'm flattered!
Regards,
MM
I agree that the F-35 programme won't fail, although I still think there is a small chance the B could get chopped.
However, who is Chuck?!!
If you mean Chuck Yeager, I'd suggest that little of his operational experience is of relevance today.I ask you again to answer 2 simple questions:
What is your profession?
What military experience do you have?
Nevertheless, I give you one thing. You're brightening up PPRUNE with your comedy posts!
Archie, if you're talking about me, I'm flattered!
Regards,
MM
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Indeed!
Maple 01 you beat me to it!
L-M, I'm sure that the air forces of the world would be delighted for you to lead them into an Tor-M1 and S-300 notso-Super MEZ and demonstrate just how straightforward it is.
And since you're so happy to take on "S-300", I presume this means any one of GRUMBLE, GLADIATOR / GIANT or GARGOYLE - or all at once.
After you Mate!
S41
(PS, do pls drop us a line on PPrune after you get back and tell us how you got on!!)
edited for spollink
L-M, I'm sure that the air forces of the world would be delighted for you to lead them into an Tor-M1 and S-300 notso-Super MEZ and demonstrate just how straightforward it is.
And since you're so happy to take on "S-300", I presume this means any one of GRUMBLE, GLADIATOR / GIANT or GARGOYLE - or all at once.
After you Mate!
S41
(PS, do pls drop us a line on PPrune after you get back and tell us how you got on!!
)edited for spollink
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Dave-B
MM,
Interested that you think that Dave-B could yet be binned. Is this on the basis of technical failure or simply cost?
If cost, the cynic in me wonders if there's a deal to be done with RR / UK PLC to keep F136 running for Dave A and Dave C in return for binning Dave B.
Thoughts?
S41
Interested that you think that Dave-B could yet be binned. Is this on the basis of technical failure or simply cost?
If cost, the cynic in me wonders if there's a deal to be done with RR / UK PLC to keep F136 running for Dave A and Dave C in return for binning Dave B.
Thoughts?
S41
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S41,
I think it's a slim possibility, but not one that should be ignored. The USN have argued that the B will not be able to integrate efficiently into their carrier cycles when embarked a la USMC FA-18C. The USMC seem to be stiff arming this relatively successfully, partly by arguing that the UK rolling vertical landing (RVL) concept will offset such obstacles.
Longer term though I'm not sure USMC fixed wing is as viable as some think and I could see their fast air absorbed into the USN; I believe that their Hornet sqns are already included in USN deployment schedules.
Obviously, this would raise questions about assault carrier air wings, but USMC AV-8B dudes seem frustrated that they're often treated very much as a sideshow to the rotary assets anyway.
Finally, the USAF seem to have moved away from plans to purchase some B models in their own F-35 buy.
Again, I think it's a slim possibility but one that could still occur. Hopefully, I'll be proved wrong.
Regards,
MM
I think it's a slim possibility, but not one that should be ignored. The USN have argued that the B will not be able to integrate efficiently into their carrier cycles when embarked a la USMC FA-18C. The USMC seem to be stiff arming this relatively successfully, partly by arguing that the UK rolling vertical landing (RVL) concept will offset such obstacles.
Longer term though I'm not sure USMC fixed wing is as viable as some think and I could see their fast air absorbed into the USN; I believe that their Hornet sqns are already included in USN deployment schedules.
Obviously, this would raise questions about assault carrier air wings, but USMC AV-8B dudes seem frustrated that they're often treated very much as a sideshow to the rotary assets anyway.
Finally, the USAF seem to have moved away from plans to purchase some B models in their own F-35 buy.
Again, I think it's a slim possibility but one that could still occur. Hopefully, I'll be proved wrong.
Regards,
MM
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F-35B
MM,
Many thanks for this - what's your view on whether we should opt for Dave-C and cats and traps on CVF or stick with the STOVL / RVL option? With your handle, I presume that you'd prefer E-2D over a helicopter / compound helicopter design? Grateful for your insights.
Regards,
S41
edited for hitting "send" too soon....
Many thanks for this - what's your view on whether we should opt for Dave-C and cats and traps on CVF or stick with the STOVL / RVL option? With your handle, I presume that you'd prefer E-2D over a helicopter / compound helicopter design? Grateful for your insights.
Regards,
S41
edited for hitting "send" too soon....
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Typhoon "Shot Down"
Posted by David Axe at 9/21/2007 4:39 AM
Back in July I relayed reports of the first-ever "shoot-down" of an F-22 Raptor fighter, during a mock dogfight with a U.S. Air Force F-16. Our European friends -- Brits, Italians, Germans and Spaniards -- might have had a couple chuckles at the news, for their new fighter, the Typhoon, had never suffered a similar humiliation. (Or if it had, no one had reported it.)
No longer. It has come to light that during an exercise in Italy in May, a Hungarian Gripen light fighter -- a small, single-engined design generally considered only slightly better than an F-16 -- "shot down" an Italian Typhoon, according to a press release from the manufacturer, quoting a Hungarian pilot:
The lesson here? Sometimes a basic fighter, expertly flown, will win even against your latest high-tech jets, no matter how many tens of billions of dollars you sink into whiz-bangs.
(Thanks, DID!)
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Airpower wrote:
Your lack of knowledge regarding the Gripen system is quaint, but embarrassing. Even an A-model jet – with its AMRAAMs, datalinks and PS-05/A radar – has the technology edge on every F-16 except perhaps a Block 60.
The Hungarians fly C/Ds and the most important point in this story is that they were limited to Red Air tactics, and therefore unable to exploit any of their technological or tactical advantages.
And they still did OK.
It’s a bit foolish to make too much of the loss of a Typhoon (or an F-22) in an exercise like this…and no details are given of just how this kill was achieved. The point of any exercise is to die. Sometimes.
However, anyone who dismisses a Gripen like it was some sort of MiG-21 is going to find themselves dying rather a lot.
Oh, and this wasn’t the first reported exercise kill of a Typhoon. Just the first you read about in a press release.
9/23/2007 12:39:15 PM
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Posted by David Axe at 9/21/2007 4:39 AM
Back in July I relayed reports of the first-ever "shoot-down" of an F-22 Raptor fighter, during a mock dogfight with a U.S. Air Force F-16. Our European friends -- Brits, Italians, Germans and Spaniards -- might have had a couple chuckles at the news, for their new fighter, the Typhoon, had never suffered a similar humiliation. (Or if it had, no one had reported it.)No longer. It has come to light that during an exercise in Italy in May, a Hungarian Gripen light fighter -- a small, single-engined design generally considered only slightly better than an F-16 -- "shot down" an Italian Typhoon, according to a press release from the manufacturer, quoting a Hungarian pilot:
“Other aircraft couldn’t see us -- not on radar, not visually -- and we had no jammers of our own with us. We got one Fox 2 kill on a F-16 who turned in between our two jets but never saw the second guy and it was a perfect shot. Our weapons and tactics were limited by Red Force rules, and in an exercise like this the Red Force is always supposed to die, but even without our AMRAAMs and data links we got eight or 10 kills, including a Typhoon. Often we had no AWACS or radar support of any kind, just our regular onboard sensors –- but flying like that, ‘free hunting’, we got three kills in one afternoon. It was a pretty good experience for our first time out.”
Should F-22 jocks worry? Maybe, according to the BBC, which claims that the "RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the U.S."The lesson here? Sometimes a basic fighter, expertly flown, will win even against your latest high-tech jets, no matter how many tens of billions of dollars you sink into whiz-bangs.
(Thanks, DID!)
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Airpower wrote:Your lack of knowledge regarding the Gripen system is quaint, but embarrassing. Even an A-model jet – with its AMRAAMs, datalinks and PS-05/A radar – has the technology edge on every F-16 except perhaps a Block 60.
The Hungarians fly C/Ds and the most important point in this story is that they were limited to Red Air tactics, and therefore unable to exploit any of their technological or tactical advantages.
And they still did OK.
It’s a bit foolish to make too much of the loss of a Typhoon (or an F-22) in an exercise like this…and no details are given of just how this kill was achieved. The point of any exercise is to die. Sometimes.
However, anyone who dismisses a Gripen like it was some sort of MiG-21 is going to find themselves dying rather a lot.
Oh, and this wasn’t the first reported exercise kill of a Typhoon. Just the first you read about in a press release.
9/23/2007 12:39:15 PM
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ME - not quite sure I see your point. Are you having a bash at the Typhoon or highlighting for Like-Minded the fact that having a technologically superior aircraft doesn't guarantee success all of the time? (as the F-22 driver who appeared in some less-than-flattering HUD footage from a Super Hornet demonstrated).
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S41,
I'm fairly sanguine about whether we get F-35B or C. C is undoubtedly the better aircraft. However, B offers the potential for greater versatility in operations from coalition decks and/or austere airfields. I think the most convincing argument regarding STOVL is that RAF aircrew could reinforce CVF decks with very limited famil/currency training. Cat and trap carries far greater overheads in maintaining RAF currency, and therefore reduces Joint flexibility in times of crisis. All the vibes regarding RVL are good, and there appears to be no shift in the long stated UK preference for STOVL. Whichever type we get, it'll be a good jet. But I think if I were to throw my hat in any ring now, it would be STOVL (just).
With reference to MASC, I'm actually not in favour of the E-2D. E-2D will be a very different beast to the E-2C 2000 but in many regards the Searchwater 2000 is still a superior sensor. The only limitation of the ASaC sensor is that it's mounted on a hugely limited airframe.
In a perfect world, an 'EV-22' Osprey with the mission system from the SKASaC would be my choice. Realistically however, unless the USMC fund such a development (which the USN E-2D community will likely block to avoid funding diversions) that isn't going to happen. In that case I'd opt for a Merlin with compound wing and the same sensor. No this wouldn't be able to support a CVF strike but I can't think of many circumstances where C2 would not be conducted by land based platforms such as the E-3 or 737 AEW&C. So let's take a less expensive rotary MASC option designed around securing CVF defence and 'bespoke' other tasks such as that offered by the SKASaC. A compound wing Merlin ASaC with maybe 4 mission crew (possibly including a flt deck dude) would overcome the majority of the Sea King ASaC7s current airframe limitations.
The money saved could be plumped into what will always be the C2 option of choice, AWACS, and a CVF J2/J6 infrastructure to support the strike wing. Far too many people are concentrating on MASC when in reality, the J2/J6 aspects are more important to the overall CVF package given the primacy of land based C2 assets.
I know many will disagree. But that's my opinion.
Navaleye,
I think that you're probably right. However, I've even heard some USMC AV-8 guys state that they can see the next generation of assault carriers being for rotary only. I just seriously doubt the long term viability of a seperate USMC fast air capability. With the increasing integration of their FA-18s and EA-6Bs into CAG deployment schedules, and USN resistance towards the B model, I can't see the USMC having fast air beyond 2020.
Regards,
MM
I'm fairly sanguine about whether we get F-35B or C. C is undoubtedly the better aircraft. However, B offers the potential for greater versatility in operations from coalition decks and/or austere airfields. I think the most convincing argument regarding STOVL is that RAF aircrew could reinforce CVF decks with very limited famil/currency training. Cat and trap carries far greater overheads in maintaining RAF currency, and therefore reduces Joint flexibility in times of crisis. All the vibes regarding RVL are good, and there appears to be no shift in the long stated UK preference for STOVL. Whichever type we get, it'll be a good jet. But I think if I were to throw my hat in any ring now, it would be STOVL (just).
With reference to MASC, I'm actually not in favour of the E-2D. E-2D will be a very different beast to the E-2C 2000 but in many regards the Searchwater 2000 is still a superior sensor. The only limitation of the ASaC sensor is that it's mounted on a hugely limited airframe.
In a perfect world, an 'EV-22' Osprey with the mission system from the SKASaC would be my choice. Realistically however, unless the USMC fund such a development (which the USN E-2D community will likely block to avoid funding diversions) that isn't going to happen. In that case I'd opt for a Merlin with compound wing and the same sensor. No this wouldn't be able to support a CVF strike but I can't think of many circumstances where C2 would not be conducted by land based platforms such as the E-3 or 737 AEW&C. So let's take a less expensive rotary MASC option designed around securing CVF defence and 'bespoke' other tasks such as that offered by the SKASaC. A compound wing Merlin ASaC with maybe 4 mission crew (possibly including a flt deck dude) would overcome the majority of the Sea King ASaC7s current airframe limitations.
The money saved could be plumped into what will always be the C2 option of choice, AWACS, and a CVF J2/J6 infrastructure to support the strike wing. Far too many people are concentrating on MASC when in reality, the J2/J6 aspects are more important to the overall CVF package given the primacy of land based C2 assets.
I know many will disagree. But that's my opinion.
Navaleye,
They will still need something to fly off these. So I can't see the USMC binning Dave B.
Regards,
MM
Modern Elmo, I had a look at the cockpit and performance of the Gripen after a tour on F16s (Blocks 30/32) and I regarded the cockpit as pretty horrid and the performance OK. Since the F16 has AMRAAM capability and is pretty "Low Observable" unless carrying reflectors, I would regard it as a pretty even fight; but there's no accounting for expertise or luck ...
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MM,
Many thanks for your detailed and informative post. Not being an AEW type, my thoughts on MASC were based around radar horizon and the performance of the airframe - as well as being able to support strike missions a la E-2 (various).
As for J2/J6 cooperation, I couldn't agree more!
Best regards,
S41
Many thanks for your detailed and informative post. Not being an AEW type, my thoughts on MASC were based around radar horizon and the performance of the airframe - as well as being able to support strike missions a la E-2 (various).
As for J2/J6 cooperation, I couldn't agree more!
Best regards,
S41
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My profession, MM my dear electrician, is distributor of Mig parts, nothing less.
This poster is at the tippiest end of the spear tip, first in, 3rd out (after the pair of Block 40 Wild Weasel guys who bank into SAMs doing the equivalent of ****** signs and thrusting their hips).
Who here has not quietly sipped a latte from a thermos at 50 feet AGL and your half-up helmet expressionlessly reflecting a thousand flaring oil fires?
Who here has not clambered out of a cockpit at first light with holes in the stabiliser, nothing in the tank, and tossing your head to be rid of helmet hair?
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
The problem with F-22 comparisons is that the USAF is so fanatically proud of the plane that foreign powers never get to see it in full-go mode, they usually fix radar reflectors on the fuselage, little knob like things.
The EF is designed to be the furball fighter par excellence, able to take the first BVR shots at high speed and altitude and then mix it up with the best. Rather good, except (a) the necessary upgrades have been slower than sludge (b) it aims to achieve air superiority through attrition, not full spectrum dominance.
It is the ultimate 4th gen fighter in a 5th gen world, the little bird who's late for the prom. Fine bird though.
Off to slap at some volleyballs.
This poster is at the tippiest end of the spear tip, first in, 3rd out (after the pair of Block 40 Wild Weasel guys who bank into SAMs doing the equivalent of ****** signs and thrusting their hips).
Who here has not quietly sipped a latte from a thermos at 50 feet AGL and your half-up helmet expressionlessly reflecting a thousand flaring oil fires?
Who here has not clambered out of a cockpit at first light with holes in the stabiliser, nothing in the tank, and tossing your head to be rid of helmet hair?
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
The problem with F-22 comparisons is that the USAF is so fanatically proud of the plane that foreign powers never get to see it in full-go mode, they usually fix radar reflectors on the fuselage, little knob like things.
The EF is designed to be the furball fighter par excellence, able to take the first BVR shots at high speed and altitude and then mix it up with the best. Rather good, except (a) the necessary upgrades have been slower than sludge (b) it aims to achieve air superiority through attrition, not full spectrum dominance.
It is the ultimate 4th gen fighter in a 5th gen world, the little bird who's late for the prom. Fine bird though.
Off to slap at some volleyballs.
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Asking a warfighter to explain the technical efficiencies of Russian SAMs is pointless. If they understood all the math in the first place, they'll be flying loads of plastic cocks out of Hong Kong.
If you have carefully observed Russian weaponry in the last 7 years, the time when their economy begins to stabilize, you could see that they are taking the mickey out of their customers, under testing weapons (Bulava anyone), reengineering 80's eras weapons (which are supposed to receive the upgrades anyway in a perfect Soviet world) and calling them new, opting for iterations that take less time instead of new engineering, and showing an increased interest in stealing and co-developing avionics and user friendliness, finally recognized by them as not their long suits.
The Russians are in a rush to refinance their arms industry and they are not afraid to take shortcuts. Unless I am in the Axis of Evil, I would be very wary of buying Made in Russia. Even Ukraine is wary of buying Russian.
Unless I am China, who has no friends and the few aquaintances I have have an uncanny unfailing tendency to turn into ****holes - Burma, Sudan, Pakistan, to name just a few.
If you have carefully observed Russian weaponry in the last 7 years, the time when their economy begins to stabilize, you could see that they are taking the mickey out of their customers, under testing weapons (Bulava anyone), reengineering 80's eras weapons (which are supposed to receive the upgrades anyway in a perfect Soviet world) and calling them new, opting for iterations that take less time instead of new engineering, and showing an increased interest in stealing and co-developing avionics and user friendliness, finally recognized by them as not their long suits.
The Russians are in a rush to refinance their arms industry and they are not afraid to take shortcuts. Unless I am in the Axis of Evil, I would be very wary of buying Made in Russia. Even Ukraine is wary of buying Russian.
Unless I am China, who has no friends and the few aquaintances I have have an uncanny unfailing tendency to turn into ****holes - Burma, Sudan, Pakistan, to name just a few.
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I quite like the arrival of L-M.
Its not often I feel knowledgeable on a site so full of true professionals in the field of military aviation but he has changed that a little.
Its not often I feel knowledgeable on a site so full of true professionals in the field of military aviation but he has changed that a little.
