Should Commanders lead from the front??
TAC Int Bloke
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 974
Likes: 0
From: UK
I do get a bit peed off however when people (not you), who are not qualified to, make negative comments about H's sacrifice, as on this thread. I knew him professionally, worked with him for a while and understand how he operated. I'm proud to have had that privilege.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: UK
It is very easy in hindsight to analyse and judge Lt Col H Jones' actions on that fateful day, however I think you have to bear 2 things in mind: he gave up his life whilst serving his country in a selfless act and he was on the ground at the time knew the situation and made a courageous decision. Many of the heros of the past were actually people who you wouldn't chose as friends or even bosses - they are only human at the day.
Leaders should lead from the front, provided they can do the job without being a liability. For example a Sqn Cdr or Stn Cdr should be able to fill a role on ops competantly and if, due to his lack of recent experience, that means a Gp Capt co-pilot then so be it. He would be showing he is willing to take the risks without putting more risk and hardship on the guys at the coalface. It is only when they can experience the issues first hand that they really understand what their people are going through and do something about it.
Analyse what people do by all means to learn from peoples mistakes, but respect the sacrifice many of these people make.
GB2.
Leaders should lead from the front, provided they can do the job without being a liability. For example a Sqn Cdr or Stn Cdr should be able to fill a role on ops competantly and if, due to his lack of recent experience, that means a Gp Capt co-pilot then so be it. He would be showing he is willing to take the risks without putting more risk and hardship on the guys at the coalface. It is only when they can experience the issues first hand that they really understand what their people are going through and do something about it.
Analyse what people do by all means to learn from peoples mistakes, but respect the sacrifice many of these people make.
GB2.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Falmouth
Green bottle.... Good post with many interesting issues....
Would you argue that the Commanding Officer of a Typhoon Squadron had to be a Typhoon pilot? Why? Why can't he be an engineer? surely the reason that the guy has been selected to drive the squadron is because he can "command"....so therefore, why (in order to command) must he be aircrew?
Apart from the reason....Because the CO has always been aircrew
Would you argue that the Commanding Officer of a Typhoon Squadron had to be a Typhoon pilot? Why? Why can't he be an engineer? surely the reason that the guy has been selected to drive the squadron is because he can "command"....so therefore, why (in order to command) must he be aircrew?
Apart from the reason....Because the CO has always been aircrew
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,700
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
More seductively you might have asked could a navigator command a Typhoon sqn. Yes he could and, in the same way as a pilot defers to an engineer's knowledge so too could a navigator defer to his pilot leader.
But he could not lead his sqn from the front.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,886
Likes: 97
From: U.S.A.
After twenty something years working for Betty Windsor and close to a decade wearing a suit, I like to think that not only do I know the difference between Leadership and Management, I also know when to apply the appropriate one. In HM Forces there is no substitute for sound leadership, (even though leading from the front is but one aspect of leadership) and I despair at the constant attempt to turn HM Forces into UK plc with the current day obsession with management. There is no cohesion or military ethos without leadership, and effective management is always by-product of sound leadership. If you seek management without leadership, go and work for Argos. H Jones had no problem understanding his ultimate obligations as a leader, even if he made life a little harder for the managers for short while.
Guest
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,260
Likes: 180
Vec - I would argue that a commanding officer should have a well informed (via personal experience wherever possible) mindset as to just how "nails" the jobs those under his command do when they put themselves into harm's way. Thus, albeit an engineer might be able to understand that flying and fighting a Typhoon/F3/GR4/9 is quite hard work, he would never actually have that first hand experience to understand what he was asking of his men, whereas an infantry officer will have that understanding, having done (at some point in his career) the platoon cdr's cse and such like.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: uk
JT
I recall a certain "lay preacher" whom we both served for. Would you seriously have wanted him (or indeed some of his execs) anywhere near the front of certain tasks the force subsequently undertook?
Horses and courses come to mind.
I recall a certain "lay preacher" whom we both served for. Would you seriously have wanted him (or indeed some of his execs) anywhere near the front of certain tasks the force subsequently undertook?
Horses and courses come to mind.
TAC Int Bloke
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 974
Likes: 0
From: UK
No; I'm letting 34 years of active soldiering, professional knowledge and experience cloud my views. What's your excuse?
Some people refuse to hear a bad word about Bader but he was a sod - Monty made several serious tactical mistakes but his 'Old Boys' swear by him - personal loyalty is all well and good but doesn’t help when trying to draw lessons from the past.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 31
From: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
antisthenes, that is a really valid point. On the other side of the coin, most people here will not know or understand the particular personality, but I am sure they could substitute a stroker from their past into the position. We had a Sqn Commander (as did our other resident sqn) who would cause me to fly in the opposite direction if he led a mission. At least ours did not sit in on South Armagh briefings doing work on his laptop!!! Peacetime V Wartime leaders is another valid debate. Sadly, in my time, the Peacetime ones were in the majority with good leaders seen as dinosaurs. Hopefully, with current operational tempo, the Jurassic Park might bring some of the good ones to the front......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 16,700
Likes: 54
From: Lincolnshire
jayteeto,
yes, we had two in succession. One was a nav who seemed to fly irregularly, work for an hour or so, then piss off and write 1369s. I dont think the sqn would have followed him to the toilet as there was doubt whether that was allowed.
The next one was far more charismatic and not a bad bloke. However he only ever flew pilot trainers or the odd jolly, never an operational or trainer.
yes, we had two in succession. One was a nav who seemed to fly irregularly, work for an hour or so, then piss off and write 1369s. I dont think the sqn would have followed him to the toilet as there was doubt whether that was allowed.
The next one was far more charismatic and not a bad bloke. However he only ever flew pilot trainers or the odd jolly, never an operational or trainer.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Hants
There is a fascinating dichotomy in this thread which mirrors our own schizophrenic view as leaders.
Gloria Gaynor (Don't snigger at the back) was onr the wireless last week, and defined this pithily saying "lead - that means I go first"
It is right that nobody should expect his/her people do do something he is not prepared to do himself, but that is no reason for the CO putting himself in harm's way unnecessarily. What requires real moral courage is to do his own job. Sharing dangers is fine, courting them is unhelpful. Sometimes exceptionalcircumstances require exceptional actions. It is recorded that the presence of the Duke ofWellington on the battlefield was worth 10000 men to the morale of his troops, but his greatest skill lay in knowing when to have them retreat or even lie down. It wasn't the sight of his nose, but his nous that made him a great commander.
Shakespeare sums up this opposite view:
"when that the General is not like the hive,
To whom the foragers may all repair,
What honey is expected?"
I was taught this graphically some time ago as a snotty when during a Practical Leadership Exercise on Dartmoor I was tapped on the shoulder by the directing staff and asked if I knew where all my team were. While I had been p*ssing about with bends and hitches he had quietly thinned out half my team one at a time at two minute intervals and told them to go round the corner and get a brew on. Subsequent experience including operational experience has reinforced this valuable lesson.
Army and the RAF COs in particular suffer from the understandable desire to
share the perils of their people (Matelots' COs get this for free). The danger is that is is easy to forget that the folk doing the flying are only part of the bigger machine needed to deliver effect which includes the engineers, armourers, fire crew, met and int, air tragicers, chefs, stackers, adminners
those guarding the airfield etc. Everybody must do their own job as well as they can: it is for the CO to see that they do.
The CO should be like the conductor of an orchestra: the one man looking at the big picture so that everybody can concentrate on their area of expertise.
He must have an absolute understanding of the music, as well as a pretty good working knowledge of all the instuments, but is not expected to play them all and never during the piece he is conducting. There is a good reason that command is given to operators (the same as why conductors are musicians).
Sometimes not storming the enemy position or flying the sortie yourself can take just as much courage. The really tough thing is visting the widows.
Gloria Gaynor (Don't snigger at the back) was onr the wireless last week, and defined this pithily saying "lead - that means I go first"
It is right that nobody should expect his/her people do do something he is not prepared to do himself, but that is no reason for the CO putting himself in harm's way unnecessarily. What requires real moral courage is to do his own job. Sharing dangers is fine, courting them is unhelpful. Sometimes exceptionalcircumstances require exceptional actions. It is recorded that the presence of the Duke ofWellington on the battlefield was worth 10000 men to the morale of his troops, but his greatest skill lay in knowing when to have them retreat or even lie down. It wasn't the sight of his nose, but his nous that made him a great commander.
Shakespeare sums up this opposite view:
"when that the General is not like the hive,
To whom the foragers may all repair,
What honey is expected?"
I was taught this graphically some time ago as a snotty when during a Practical Leadership Exercise on Dartmoor I was tapped on the shoulder by the directing staff and asked if I knew where all my team were. While I had been p*ssing about with bends and hitches he had quietly thinned out half my team one at a time at two minute intervals and told them to go round the corner and get a brew on. Subsequent experience including operational experience has reinforced this valuable lesson.
Army and the RAF COs in particular suffer from the understandable desire to
share the perils of their people (Matelots' COs get this for free). The danger is that is is easy to forget that the folk doing the flying are only part of the bigger machine needed to deliver effect which includes the engineers, armourers, fire crew, met and int, air tragicers, chefs, stackers, adminners
those guarding the airfield etc. Everybody must do their own job as well as they can: it is for the CO to see that they do.
The CO should be like the conductor of an orchestra: the one man looking at the big picture so that everybody can concentrate on their area of expertise.
He must have an absolute understanding of the music, as well as a pretty good working knowledge of all the instuments, but is not expected to play them all and never during the piece he is conducting. There is a good reason that command is given to operators (the same as why conductors are musicians).
Sometimes not storming the enemy position or flying the sortie yourself can take just as much courage. The really tough thing is visting the widows.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Falmouth
So, do you need to be a good leader to command a squadron? Clearly not as I have known many poor leaders command a squadron.
What is the difference between command and leadership? Is there a difference? Are the 2 linked?
Was Colonel H Jones a good leader? was he a good commander?
What about Hitler? Did he command well or was he a leader? I would argue that adolf was a poor commander but clealry one of the worlds finest leaders.
What about winston> Good leader? what did he lead? Good commander?
What is the difference between command and leadership? Is there a difference? Are the 2 linked?
Was Colonel H Jones a good leader? was he a good commander?
What about Hitler? Did he command well or was he a leader? I would argue that adolf was a poor commander but clealry one of the worlds finest leaders.
What about winston> Good leader? what did he lead? Good commander?
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Falmouth
Oh, I know very well what the difference is. But does JOCC ? Dors Torps?
There is a vast difference between leadership and command...every serviceman is taught leadership from the day they join but few get to command.
An example. Should the Captain of a Destroyer be qualified in driving that ship? Should the Captain of a ship have any seamanship qualifications? Why should he? he has people to do that for him....surely, all the Captain needs to do is fight and Command. Why does the Captain of a ship need to be a fishhead?
There is a vast difference between leadership and command...every serviceman is taught leadership from the day they join but few get to command.
An example. Should the Captain of a Destroyer be qualified in driving that ship? Should the Captain of a ship have any seamanship qualifications? Why should he? he has people to do that for him....surely, all the Captain needs to do is fight and Command. Why does the Captain of a ship need to be a fishhead?
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,541
Likes: 1
From: firmly on dry land
An example. Should the Captain of a Destroyer be qualified in driving that ship? Should the Captain of a ship have any seamanship qualifications? Why should he? he has people to do that for him....surely, all the Captain needs to do is fight and Command. Why does the Captain of a ship need to be a fishhead?
