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ATPL Information

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ATPL Information

Old 3rd Jul 2007, 12:59
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Arrow ATPL Information

Back in the olden days, when Pontius was a pilot and even BEagle was still in the RAF, the PPRuNe military aircrew forum used to be both a source of information and a place for (sometimes harsh, but amusing) banter. Unfortunately over the years it has become more a forum for the discontented and a soap box for those that have no idea what they are talking about. So I was hoping to introduce a truly useful thread that could be used by many. Also I want some info.

Mods - Please do not move this thread to Wannabes Forum, military aircrew don't read it!!

I am a RAF FJ pilot with just over 2500 hours looking to join the airlines (probably) in early 2009. Unfortunately the usual method of getting info from the other 5 people on the squadron currently doing their ATPL is not open to me and the resettlement people aren't too clued up on ATPLs around here, so I am turning to the Great World Wide Web for information.

I know that as I have >2000 hours I am exempt from most of the exams. Almost everything else I am trying to piece together and much of it is assumption.

I believe that I need to:
1. Do Groundschool. Everyone uses Bristol. Anything else?
2. Get an IR - any recommended schools, any CAA limitations/rules, approx cost?
3. Do a MCC - same questions as for IR.
4. Get a medical.
5. Get a job (for the first time in 16 years)

Funding - Resettlement starts from 2 years to exit date, so can I get all grants etc from that point? Can I use my resettlement grant to pay for Bristol GS, ELCs for my IR and ELCs (next year) for my MCC? I know that from 1 Apr ELCs go up to £2000/year. Or is there a better way to do it?What else can I claim for and what other allowances are available?

RAFCARS / Managed path any use?

Which airlines are positive towards military (FJ) pilots and which aren't? Roughly when should I start applying? I know long haul/short haul has been covered quite a bit recently - anything constructive to add or is it horses for courses?

Any other top tips? If you want to keep it super secret then please PM me, but knowledge is NOT power so please share as widely as possible. Also I am sure my helo and multi brothers (and sisters) would appreciate info - this is not a FJ exclusive thread!

Thanking you all in advance, light blue, dark blue and even green.

ps I have tried quite hard with my speeling and grammar, please don't critique it!
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 14:10
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Hi there,

I am not ex mil but I do have some things to offer.....

1) ATPL groundschool. Yes you will be exempt from most of the exams. I believe LASORS (just search the CAA website) has all the info you require. I went to Bristol and found it SUPERB. There were lots of ex mil guys doing the bridging package and they found it very suitable.

2) IR - I believe there is a company based in either Exeter or Bristol that offer good rates for ex mil people. Someone that has followed ths route might be able to help you there. Same with the MCC...

3) Jobs. It depends on what you want. I can't offer help on which airlines are pro versus anti ex mil guys, specifically ex FJ pilots. To be honest common sense would suggest that 10 people could argue that airline X is pro and airline Y is anti. However, in reality it makes bugger all difference as it is the Chief Pilot/Recruitment people that decide that.

Regarding timing - Most airlines in the UK, ie charter types run courses in the new year in order for you to get onto the line by the summer season. This is not the case with every airline but its a good starting point. So this being the case, apply around early summer, airline review applications over the summer and hold assessments/interviews (depending on thier assessment processes) towards the end of the year.

Hope this helps
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 14:31
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As an RAF QSP(A) who meets LASORS D3.3 criteria in full, you should certainly contact Alex at Bristol Groundschool to sort you out with your theory requirements and exams.

You are also credited the FRTOL practical and written exams.

You will need to do a ME IR Skill Test on something like a Seneca. For that you will need to do some training first. Hopefully someone will let you know what that actually means - and the associated costs. Same goes for the MCC.

The airlines will soon be competing for every available pilot. However, you shouldn't imagine that this will apply to you when you go for interview!

Most ex-RAF pilots seem to have ended up in Virgin, ba, EasyJet and flybe. Depends what you want really. You could always try the Gulf/HK operators if you wish. There is some doubt about whether the HK mob will accept 'fATPLs' obtained with theory credit still.

Have fun - the airline world should be your lobster in 2009! Just don't leave it too late - and make sure you stay in current practice. I've heard of even ME pilots who could have obtained a full ATPL with 1 exam, Class 1 medical and CAA-monitored IR on type being stuffed because they fannied about and left it too late - then found themselves on a ground tour.....
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 14:58
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Beagle - on your last point.....I assume once you have 'bagged' the licence via the ME Mil Pilot route then there are no 'currency' issues if you subsequently end up on a Ground Tour and then decide to leave??

Or do you have to finish your service career in a current flying appointment?
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 15:19
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The licence is valid for 5 years; any Rating contained in the Licence is valid in accordance with that specific Rating.

Regarding the IR, it's slightly more complex. But basically:

Don't let the IR lapse by 5 years (from the expiry of your last military IR) or you'll have to sit another one with a CAA Examiner.

Really don't let the IR lapse by 7 years or more or you'll have to take all the lovely exams.

Once you've opened an ATPL, if you wish to have it reissued at the 5 year point all you need is a valid medical and a valid Type or Class Rating - I had mine reissued with just a SEP Class Rating, FI and IMC....

Normally you will get your licence and then go looking for a job. Certain airlines may wish you to have a current IR when you apply - but not all. When you do your airline Type Rating, it will include the requirements for an IR in any case.
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 15:30
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SonicStomp- definitely some airlines out there that won't touch you with a barge pole if you are not in "current flying practice." Not sure if the definitions vary from airline to airline, or if it is laid down in LASORS. BA wouldn't look at a former colleague of mine as he hadn't flown for more than 12 months.
I didn't have a current civvy IR when I started earlier this year- BA were initially very reluctant to take me on, but I got the relevant paragraph from LASORS from a helpful man at the CAA and that seemed to satisfy them.
WBC- Bristol is fantastic. I used ELC to do the courses. I had to take leave to do them, although someone from (I think) Lyneham was there on duty and was therefore eligible for travelling expenses (or whatever they are called under JPA). From a personal point of view, I found having the licence in the bag as early as poss gave me more options. Join BALPA now and get yor name down for the Employment Conference. This is attended by pretty much all the airlines and is extremely useful for a. knowing when to apply b. knowing who (and probably more importantly who not) to apply for c. sizing up the competition and d. getting a flavour of requirements etc. As far as the short haul/long haul debate goes, I'm lucky enough to fly a mixture of both. I'm finding short haul at LHR a real chafe at the moment, some guys who have been with the airline years reckon its the worst its been. Having said that, the destinations are fun as are the people (in general). Long haul can be tiring (especially the transatlantic stuff). Other top tips? Interview technique courses a must- there are loads out there, I used Airline Orientation Training. They were excellent although they have a different name now (suggest you google it, if there's no joy pm me and I'll dig out the number)
Good luck!

Last edited by goldcup; 3rd Jul 2007 at 15:33. Reason: BEagle explained the IR bit properly
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 15:39
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WBC,

I believe you can still get a credit for MCC as long as you have >350hrs multicrew. Clearly that would depend on which FJ you flew.
Application for credit to be signed by CO to verify hours.


SS
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 20:06
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"I believe you can still get a credit for MCC as long as you have >350hrs multicrew."

No such credit mentioned in LASORS F10. Only QSP(A)s "who have completed an operational conversion unit course on a multi-pilot aeroplane type, and have not less than 600 hours operational experience as a pilot on such a type, will be credited the MCC course.
For this purpose, the following types are deemed to be Multi-pilot aeroplanes:

Andover
BAC 1-11
BAe 125 (not Dominie)
BAe 146
C17 Hercules
Jetstream T3
Nimrod
Sentry
TriStar
VC10"
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Old 3rd Jul 2007, 20:45
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Well pointed out Sir.

Having now read F10, (my old memory was from the old tgda flow chart) it seems a shame to read that...

We are aware that some military helicopter types are
operated exclusively by 2 pilots in certain theatres of
operation. Therefore, if an applicant can show evidence
of 500 hours of genuine 2-pilot operation, an MCC
credit will be allowed.
...and realise that there surely must be more crew co-operation between a front seat and rear seat FJ crew, than that which goes on in a Gazelle on NVG or a Lynx tootaling around Northern Germany.

Sorry WBC, another course I'm afraid.
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 08:56
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Get your CAA Class 1 Medical from a service MO, it will be a lot cheaper than going to Gatwick for your initial issue. Not sure which MOs still do them, but I'm sure someone will be able to tell you. IIRC the MO at Valley would be a good bet.

As for MCC, I'd recommend Oxford. It's done on a B737-400, gives you some big jet flying and glass cockpit experience. It's a bit more pricey but will help if you go for the BA sim as that is in a B747 and the cockpits are similar. I know of people that got exemption from the MCC and subsequently failed sim checks. The MCC will give you an idea of what airline flying is about.

You'll only need to do a bridging exam and 4 ATPL exams becasue of your >2000hrs. Use Bristol GS.

Good Luck, maybe see you down route sometime....
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 08:56
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Thanks for all the replies and PMs so far - especially BEagle for not biting. Good work!

I was worried about the keep current bit, as I am in a ground tour! However careful inspection of LASORS (right riveting read) reveals that all you need (in my FJ, >2000hrs case) is 12 hours in the last 12 months (mil or civ) of which 6 needs to be PIC. So even if I dont fly again, my IR will cover most of that - I probably just need to do a few PIC hours on something cheap. Also need a flight with a civ or mil instructor (IR) and 12 take-offs and landings. So worst case a couple of hundred more quid.

Also found that you can use SLCs to do the exams - even if you have used the resettlement grant for the GS. Also you get 7 travel warrants.

Interesting comment on pilot recruitment, Beagle. Obviously the market is very bouyant at the moment - are you confident that it will remain so for another 2 years? I believe both BA and Virgin have pretty much stopped recruitment for the time being?

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Old 4th Jul 2007, 09:18
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Bristol Ground School is the place for groundschool. It has been some years since I went through the mill myself but Alex,Dick and co got my befuddled brain round the concepts of the subject matter and even coaxed a couple of straight 100% passes out of me!!!

On the IR side of things a lot, if not the majority, of guys I know went through Airways Flight Training at Exeter (sadly bereft of the lovely Pauline nowadays). Totally in tune with what the guys need, time scales et al and they got me through in 5 sorties and a test (thanks ).
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 09:27
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DD

Thanks - I've heard that spending a bit more on the MCC is worthwhile and also heard Oxford mentioned. Do you know roughly how much that costs? EDIT - got off my arse (well figuratively) and looked it up - £2895.

Downroute...

KY - how many hours were the 6 trips, roughly how much did it cost and how long (in days) was it?

Thanks

Last edited by WannaBeCiv; 4th Jul 2007 at 10:22.
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 09:33
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Airways Flight Training at Exeter is the place for the IR if your interested. Run by Brian Marindin who is ex RN Sea Hawk pilot and Ex Cathy Pacific pilot. Top bloke who will get you sorted and has trained what seems to be the entire military escapee branch. You can ring him on (01392) 364216

As to the recruiting, BA has just been elevated from 'junk bond' status to investment status, what this means that BA can now invest in new aircraft. There is talk of a 'fleet expansion' although the company talks it down by suggesting that the new aircraft are to replace older hulls. At the moment just about all recruiting is onto the airbus fleet as all LH fleets are being served by internal movement.

Virgin, as far as know, has more A340 orders coming in possibly at 12-14 crews per aircraft.

The BA interview process favours ex-mil pilots as it is very similar to interview processes that we have all been through before.

Good luck!
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 12:06
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Wobble,

PM for you.
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 12:26
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Originally Posted by BEagle
Regarding the IR, it's slightly more complex. But basically:

Don't let the IR lapse by 5 years (from the expiry of your last military IR) or you'll have to sit another one with a CAA Examiner.

Really don't let the IR lapse by 7 years or more or you'll have to take all the lovely exams.
BEags, I have just renewed my ATPL after just under 5 years with a SEP rating/Class 1 medical. Are you saying that if I don't get another IR within the next 2 years, despite my renewed license stating that it runs out in 2012, I will need to do the lot again! I'm sorry if that is a numpty question, but dementia does seem to loom on my personal horizon...

TIA...
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 16:46
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Licences and Ratings are NOT the same thing.

From LASORS E1.5:

The requirements to renew an IR(A) are based on the
period of time elapsed since the rating expired i.e.
calculated from the date of expiry of the most recent
IR(A) proficiency check entered in the licence.
However, where IR privileges have been exercised in
another category of aircraft (i.e. UK/JAR IR(H)) or
under the privileges of an ICAO licence (Aeroplanes
and Helicopters) or under a UK military IR qualification
(fixed-wing or rotary), the renewal requirements will be
based on the expiry date of that IR.

To renew an IR(A) that has expired by less than
5 years, applicants must complete Section 3b of
Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 including the flight
preparation as a Skill Test with an authorised
examiner.


To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than
5 years but less and 7 years, applicants must:
For single-pilot aircraft complete Section 3b of
Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 including the flight
preparation as a Skill Test in an aeroplane with a
UK CAA Staff Flight Examiner. For multi-pilot
aircraft pass a type rating skill test with or
observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations
Training Inspector.


To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than
7 years, applicants must: For single-pilot
aircraft pass an IR(A) skill test in an aeroplane
with a UK CAA Staff Flight Examiner. For
multi-pilot aircraft pass a type rating skill test
with or observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations
Training Inspector. Applicants will also be
required to retake the IR(A) theoretical
knowledge examinations.
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 17:41
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WannaBe,

Lots of good stuff on here especially the licensing pitfalls and tips. As to some of the things you need to do after that little hurdle, here are a few things that worked for me after leaving the RAF FJ world 18 months ago after 18 years.

AFT at Exeter highly recommended. Lots of Civ and ex-mil chaps who are all very good at teaching you what you need to know to pass an IR safely but in minimum time/cost. They recognise that you are an experienced mil pilot but that you will know cock-all about NDB holds and assymetric ILS' in a Beech Duchess (I certainly didn't). Most guys seem to do it in around 12 hrs or less which included a ME Skills test. Two yrs ago it all cost about £4k and if you're still tight for cash you can stay in the RM Officers' Mess at Lympstone.

RAFCARS worked well for me. Used it on my BA app and got a call for interview 4 weeks later. Also very surprised to get a call out of the blue from someone at Cathay and at Netjets so the networking thing seemed to be in operation here. If, for example you are going for BA, it will also allow you to go for interview up to 2 yrs (I think) before your exit and then await a sim date in the knowledge you have that little hurdle sorted. Agree with comment elsewhere that the BA tests are similar to those in the RAF. By lucky chance I was interviewed by the chap in BA who runs recruitment and they seem very pro ex-RAF. There will always be exceptions to this and you do occasionally hear stories of some ex-mil tossers about the place but thats life in a big company!

Did the MCC at Jetlinx. http://www.jetlinx.co.uk/index1.htm.
Can't praise them enough. Planned to do it immediately before the BA sim. It is done at Cranebank with BA instructors using broadly BA SOPs on either the A320 or B757 - your choice. It seemed a tad more expensive than some others at £3300 but was worth the long-term investment IMHO. To keep cost down agin you can stay at RAF Uxbridge or use some resettlement accom money here where hotels are more expensive than around Exeter. For this or the IR you can use ELCs.

A few guys I know joined some other very good companies at the same time. Never here too many gripes about Virgin for sure. In BA, now that the BARP pension is just about sorted, once you throw in a bit of monthly Air Force Pension, greater salary, time off etc etc you realise that life is pretty good on the outside.

Good luck with the whole process and feel free to pm me if necessary.

Cheers, SG
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 17:51
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WBC,
Please can you post the LASORS link, I too am in a ground tour with an ATPL(H) issued as a 10 year licence. If the 12 hours, 6 PIC applies to me also, I will leave it until resettlement.
SL
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Old 4th Jul 2007, 17:55
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Beags and guys - thanks for the replies.
At the moment my game plan is to stay in the service until my 38/16 point.
I am currently 31 yrs old - have got about 3000 military, of which about 1000 hrs are PIC on one of the approved ME types.
My understanding of LASORS is that all I need to do is the Air Law Exam, a Class I Medical and arrange for a CAA IRE to 'observe' a military IRT on my jet.
My question is therefore : do I wait until nearer my exit date before bothering with my licence due to possible 'expiry issues' when I disappear into ground tours or get it now and just attempt to get into a flying tour to keep it current before leaving??
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