PVR rates at 10 year high.
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So, UK servicemen are leaving because they might die. Maybe I should remind you of the military covenant...
The soldier …
- must be prepared personally to make the decision to engage an enemy or to place themselves in harm’s way;
- must make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation;
- must demonstrate high degrees of personal and collective commitment, self-sacrifice, forbearance and mutual trust;
- must accept that conflict is still the province of chaos, danger, exhaustion, fear, loneliness and privation;
- has to forgo some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces;
- must be available at any time, to go anywhere and to carry out a wide variety of potential missions in support of government policy;
- accepts that this demands hard and realistic training, the unquestioning acceptance of authority and sound discipline;
- has to understand and accept the political and legal responsibilities of their actions;
Having interviewed many, many young men and women who submit thier notice I can categorically state that not 1 of them said that the reason they were leaving was in case they died.
Now, no one likes it, nor should it be accepted but to state that the reason the PVR rates are so high is because there is a chance you might die is wrong. We all know there is a chance, we have all lost friends and workmates and god forbid it should happen again but it will. Everytime you strap an aircraft to your backside there is a chance...and we take that chance, we minimise the risks as best we can but there is a chance that it may be our turn next and we accept that risk.
The soldier …
- must be prepared personally to make the decision to engage an enemy or to place themselves in harm’s way;
- must make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation;
- must demonstrate high degrees of personal and collective commitment, self-sacrifice, forbearance and mutual trust;
- must accept that conflict is still the province of chaos, danger, exhaustion, fear, loneliness and privation;
- has to forgo some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces;
- must be available at any time, to go anywhere and to carry out a wide variety of potential missions in support of government policy;
- accepts that this demands hard and realistic training, the unquestioning acceptance of authority and sound discipline;
- has to understand and accept the political and legal responsibilities of their actions;
Having interviewed many, many young men and women who submit thier notice I can categorically state that not 1 of them said that the reason they were leaving was in case they died.
Now, no one likes it, nor should it be accepted but to state that the reason the PVR rates are so high is because there is a chance you might die is wrong. We all know there is a chance, we have all lost friends and workmates and god forbid it should happen again but it will. Everytime you strap an aircraft to your backside there is a chance...and we take that chance, we minimise the risks as best we can but there is a chance that it may be our turn next and we accept that risk.
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PVR Rates
Fellow Pruners,
Yes, its depressing and I know, for those who have been in for more than a dog watch (as we Pussers say), that it must seem pretty dire BUT the grass ain't much greener on t'other side. I'm currently 'down under' and if you think the UK MoD plc has problems you should see the ADF - completely screwed. Bigger retention issues, less kit, politicians just as ill-informed as ours (not always their fault mind you) and 'stretch' as bad as the UK's. Oh, and a country the size of Europe to 'defend'.
I'm still bloody proud to be a serving Officer in Her Majesty's Armed Forces and, despite the inter-service banter we see on these threads, I think the British public should be unbelievably proud of the dedication and sacrifice of all the Armed Forces (yes, even the blunties). It's not the politicians or General Public's fault that they are ill-informed and, in some cases, ignorant of what we do. I'd be more tempted to lay that blame at the foot of successive CDS/COS and various DCC/DPR etc organisations. Just look at our boys and girls now - stretched from pillar to post - Afghanistan to Gloucester - under-pinning it all is the pride in the units/regiments/squadrons we serve in. Those who want to leave, crack on - I know a few people who've left for the 'highly paid' jobs 'in the city'. Andersons/EDS etc and the airlines all want their pound of flesh in one way or another. Me? I'm staying amongst those I'm proud to work with and for, rather than for some strawberry mivvies (civvies) who would chop off a limb or two to do half the stuff we take for granted (especially the aviators).
Yes, its depressing and I know, for those who have been in for more than a dog watch (as we Pussers say), that it must seem pretty dire BUT the grass ain't much greener on t'other side. I'm currently 'down under' and if you think the UK MoD plc has problems you should see the ADF - completely screwed. Bigger retention issues, less kit, politicians just as ill-informed as ours (not always their fault mind you) and 'stretch' as bad as the UK's. Oh, and a country the size of Europe to 'defend'.
I'm still bloody proud to be a serving Officer in Her Majesty's Armed Forces and, despite the inter-service banter we see on these threads, I think the British public should be unbelievably proud of the dedication and sacrifice of all the Armed Forces (yes, even the blunties). It's not the politicians or General Public's fault that they are ill-informed and, in some cases, ignorant of what we do. I'd be more tempted to lay that blame at the foot of successive CDS/COS and various DCC/DPR etc organisations. Just look at our boys and girls now - stretched from pillar to post - Afghanistan to Gloucester - under-pinning it all is the pride in the units/regiments/squadrons we serve in. Those who want to leave, crack on - I know a few people who've left for the 'highly paid' jobs 'in the city'. Andersons/EDS etc and the airlines all want their pound of flesh in one way or another. Me? I'm staying amongst those I'm proud to work with and for, rather than for some strawberry mivvies (civvies) who would chop off a limb or two to do half the stuff we take for granted (especially the aviators).
Thread Starter
Less kit?
Super Hornet coming.
KC-30B being built.
C-17A coming...
....none of which are being leased or operated under PFI bolleaux.
Super Hornet coming.
KC-30B being built.
C-17A coming...
....none of which are being leased or operated under PFI bolleaux.
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Expending on vecvechookattack's comment bout the military covenant. The military covenant is a 2-way undertaking between the Nation and its soldiers - see below (my emboldening).
While our soldiers (and sailors, marines, and airmen) are meeting their part of the deal - those at very high levels in the British Army have questioned whether the Nation is meeting its part.
Soldiers will be called upon to make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation. In putting the needs of the nation and the Army before their own, they forgo some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces. In return, British soldiers must always be able to expect fair treatment, to be valued and respected as individuals, and that they (and their families) will be sustained and rewarded by commensurate terms and conditions of service. In the same way, the unique nature of military land operations means that the Army differs from all other institutions, and must be sustained and provided for accordingly by the nation. This mutual obligation forms the Military Covenant between the nation, the Army and each individual soldier; an unbreakable common bond of identity, loyalty and responsibility which has sustained the Army and its soldiers throughout its history. It has perhaps its greatest manifestation in the annual commemoration of Armistice Day, when the nation keeps covenant with those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, giving their lives in action.
Last edited by Climebear; 25th Jul 2007 at 08:14.
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I have to agree; I am not leaving because of the risk of death. That's something we all just have to accept. Likewise, as much as I might disagree with Government policy, it emphatically is not the reason I'm leaving.
I remain proud to be a serving officer, and I'm upset that prospects within the military are so poor that I feel the need to leave. But there it is. If the Service lived up to the pap that I was sold as a starry-eyed 18-year old at the AFCO, I'd still be looking forward to a fulfilling career.
I remain proud to be a serving officer, and I'm upset that prospects within the military are so poor that I feel the need to leave. But there it is. If the Service lived up to the pap that I was sold as a starry-eyed 18-year old at the AFCO, I'd still be looking forward to a fulfilling career.
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Vecv,
Here is a link to 13 pages of comment from ARRSE, subject, "Iraq, sorry no longer in support." I suggest you read it. Nobody doubts the bravery of British troops, the extraordinary sacrifices made over the last few years. Read this thread before getting sanctimonious here. You might be happy to give your life, in an unprotected tent, vehicle, aircraft, but many people have decided that, for the sake of their family, for the upheavals, time away, risk of dying, lack of equipment issues, lack of belief in the task, it just isn't worth it any more. I certainly do not believe that enough is being done to protect British troops.
That said, I salute anyone who decides to stay in the service, but I would not blame anyone for leaving. It is a moot point to blame risk of death. That it is a factor, I am sure. The effect of death is devastating on a family. And if the war is deemed unnecessary, the devastation is felt even more keenly. The military covenant was broken on the opening day of the Iraq war, it is only now that the true effects are being felt. I sense that servicemen are weary. Weary of continuous ops, with no prospect of any let up in the future. The leadership is guilty of pushing too hard, accepting too many tasks. The High Command needs to rapidly reappraise, the damage being done is serious and lasting.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...c/t=73019.html
Iraq. Sorry, no longer in support
"No. Not worth the life of any British soldier, sailor or airman. The savagery there is a direct consequence of their culture and all of its deeply ignorant baggage, which for me is emphatically not worth defending, and especially not by British men and women. Let's get out, as quickly as we can. Any reason for the original war there is now far away in history, justified though it may have been"........
........."As recently as a month ago I would have argued the toss over this....BUT
I've lost a couple of mates in Iraq and a couple in Afghanistan and as upsetting as that was I dealt with it because as I saw it it's part and parcel of taking the Queen's shilling.
For some reason...today, perhaps because I've had a really bad day for various reasons, I don't know..even though I didn't know them and I was a soldier not a crab the news of the 3 RAF boys who copped it in Basra reduced me to tears for a considerable length of time. I don't give a flying fcuk for the Arabs, racist? maybe, I don't care what anyone thinks of that, I've just had enough of seeing coffins draped in the UJ flying back to Brize. They don't want us there even though we're trying to help them ....so let's leave them to it. Their godforsaken countries aren't worth another drop of British blood... "
Here is a link to 13 pages of comment from ARRSE, subject, "Iraq, sorry no longer in support." I suggest you read it. Nobody doubts the bravery of British troops, the extraordinary sacrifices made over the last few years. Read this thread before getting sanctimonious here. You might be happy to give your life, in an unprotected tent, vehicle, aircraft, but many people have decided that, for the sake of their family, for the upheavals, time away, risk of dying, lack of equipment issues, lack of belief in the task, it just isn't worth it any more. I certainly do not believe that enough is being done to protect British troops.
That said, I salute anyone who decides to stay in the service, but I would not blame anyone for leaving. It is a moot point to blame risk of death. That it is a factor, I am sure. The effect of death is devastating on a family. And if the war is deemed unnecessary, the devastation is felt even more keenly. The military covenant was broken on the opening day of the Iraq war, it is only now that the true effects are being felt. I sense that servicemen are weary. Weary of continuous ops, with no prospect of any let up in the future. The leadership is guilty of pushing too hard, accepting too many tasks. The High Command needs to rapidly reappraise, the damage being done is serious and lasting.
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/...c/t=73019.html
Iraq. Sorry, no longer in support
"No. Not worth the life of any British soldier, sailor or airman. The savagery there is a direct consequence of their culture and all of its deeply ignorant baggage, which for me is emphatically not worth defending, and especially not by British men and women. Let's get out, as quickly as we can. Any reason for the original war there is now far away in history, justified though it may have been"........
........."As recently as a month ago I would have argued the toss over this....BUT
I've lost a couple of mates in Iraq and a couple in Afghanistan and as upsetting as that was I dealt with it because as I saw it it's part and parcel of taking the Queen's shilling.
For some reason...today, perhaps because I've had a really bad day for various reasons, I don't know..even though I didn't know them and I was a soldier not a crab the news of the 3 RAF boys who copped it in Basra reduced me to tears for a considerable length of time. I don't give a flying fcuk for the Arabs, racist? maybe, I don't care what anyone thinks of that, I've just had enough of seeing coffins draped in the UJ flying back to Brize. They don't want us there even though we're trying to help them ....so let's leave them to it. Their godforsaken countries aren't worth another drop of British blood... "
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And I'll second that! If I had the courage to leave now and not wait those few tantalising years till my pension then I surely would, the reason? It's crap! it's not remotely the same Airforce I joined nearly twenty years ago, above all else however I don't want to die and although my job isn't nearly as high risk as the boys on the ground I don't fancy copping it and leaving my poor family behind for these two utterly pointless and never ending conflicts (civil wars).Was speaking to a veteran of the Second World War the other day (88) and he couldn't believe that Blair is able to sleep at night at least in them days you knew that what you were doing was right and in a just cause!
Can anyone honestly tell me that they believe we are doing a just job out in Iraq?
I don't want some Officer my wife has never met knocking at the door with the news that I have died in some pointless bloody politicians ego trip of a war.
Should I leave now? probably but can I afford to? no so I press on in my slightly risky job and hope for the best in the next couple of years.
Being in the Armed forces is inherently dangerous and whilst few of us thought about it that much when we joined, dying isn't actually that appealing!
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Report line trust me I think about it all the time and look on enviously at those that are leaving now but I am measuring the risk against the money and in an ideal world I should say yes and pack my bags! also I believe that I am due and have earned my pension and gratuity and to bang out now as tempting as it is would be a big mistake.
Truthfully my job isn't that risky at least not compared to some and perhaps it is materialistic but the years will pass quick enough and with a dose of luck and profesionalism I should be enjoying being a Mr soon enough.
Truthfully my job isn't that risky at least not compared to some and perhaps it is materialistic but the years will pass quick enough and with a dose of luck and profesionalism I should be enjoying being a Mr soon enough.
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This conversation is all based on why people are leaving the forces. Sure, it's upsetting to see or hear of our military being killed or injured, but we've always faced those same concerns the world over for many, many years. Believing in the struggle you're currently involved in helps a lot too. However, I honestly believe that the reason people are leaving is now solely that we are so severely overstreatched through manning reductions. This has led to virtually everone living out of suitcases for half of every year. When they joined up, perhaps they had some sort of family life. For many, that has been reduced to rubble over recent years.
The answer? Not too sure honestly, but in the short term, probably to pull out of Iraq immediately, but in the long term - restore our service numbers to those of around 5 years ago so that if we get similar situations, we may be better placed to deal with them.
PingDit
The answer? Not too sure honestly, but in the short term, probably to pull out of Iraq immediately, but in the long term - restore our service numbers to those of around 5 years ago so that if we get similar situations, we may be better placed to deal with them.
PingDit
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I placed the post ref the death rates (US V's UK) in Iraq just to see how it would be taken and the sort of response it would get. Hard facts there are no getting away from them.
For me after 25 years (plus 5 in the ATC) I have loved the RAF since a small lad. However things have changed too far now.
Years ago we always seemed to be firefighting at work I guess that was to keep us on our toes and breed a 'Can do approach.' But that good will has been taken to the limit and pushed over the top, to such an extent I for one say NO we just can't keep pushing and pushing with less men and kit to attempt to even try to do the same job any more.
I have to to stand up to my boss and say no to the jobs to hand. Why? I still want jets to fly knowing they are safe to do so. I am fed up with the feeling or ERRRRRRRR in the back of my mind. It's not my bum on the seat but it's my neck on the line. Problem is that this just makes for longer working hours, quality has a price, but so does my home life.
As for the Airforce dumming down, it has been slow comming in but look carefully you will see it. No more second and third line techies required, its back to Flem's (fuel and tyres.) Lower technical training standards is showing it's ugly head, C/T's and Sgt's are now required to solve real snags that JT's and Cpl's once could do.
So what's my reason for going:
Risk managment has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
Slow promotion.
Suit case living in 18 man tents in the sand pit for 4 months at a time. (The Army has it worse I know.)
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
Longer working hours.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicmen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.
Blair and Bush taking us into Iraq that was just plain wrong.
No let up (no light at the end of the tunnel) it just keeps getting worse and my bubble has popped. It's time to move on and leave more work for the poor bugger's still left in, sorry guy's.
Best thing I have seen in years to put a ray of light on the Airforce was pay 2000......er 2001. At least that gave us a nudge up with pay.
Where's that chuff chart.
For me after 25 years (plus 5 in the ATC) I have loved the RAF since a small lad. However things have changed too far now.
Years ago we always seemed to be firefighting at work I guess that was to keep us on our toes and breed a 'Can do approach.' But that good will has been taken to the limit and pushed over the top, to such an extent I for one say NO we just can't keep pushing and pushing with less men and kit to attempt to even try to do the same job any more.
I have to to stand up to my boss and say no to the jobs to hand. Why? I still want jets to fly knowing they are safe to do so. I am fed up with the feeling or ERRRRRRRR in the back of my mind. It's not my bum on the seat but it's my neck on the line. Problem is that this just makes for longer working hours, quality has a price, but so does my home life.
As for the Airforce dumming down, it has been slow comming in but look carefully you will see it. No more second and third line techies required, its back to Flem's (fuel and tyres.) Lower technical training standards is showing it's ugly head, C/T's and Sgt's are now required to solve real snags that JT's and Cpl's once could do.
So what's my reason for going:
Risk managment has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
Slow promotion.
Suit case living in 18 man tents in the sand pit for 4 months at a time. (The Army has it worse I know.)
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
Longer working hours.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicmen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.
Blair and Bush taking us into Iraq that was just plain wrong.
No let up (no light at the end of the tunnel) it just keeps getting worse and my bubble has popped. It's time to move on and leave more work for the poor bugger's still left in, sorry guy's.
Best thing I have seen in years to put a ray of light on the Airforce was pay 2000......er 2001. At least that gave us a nudge up with pay.
Where's that chuff chart.
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If the fear of death isa factor, I suspect it should be qualified as a fear of death due to body armour not being available, or fear of death due to no overhead cover being available. So it is not the fear of death itself, but the shortages of kit resulting in needless deaths.
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Or fear of death from sleeping in tents with no overhead protection, near the big target marker, Basrah Air Station, Iraq.
Who wants to lie on the ground 20-30 times a day and wait for the one you don't hear?
Who wants to lie on the ground 20-30 times a day and wait for the one you don't hear?
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Thanks for your adult response.
I've done my share of of ops, the enjoyment soon wears off especially when you're not exactly getting wholehearted support for doing your duty from the powers that be other than media friendly sound bites.
BTW I'm glad I'm leaving too, otherwise I'd have stayed in.
I've done my share of of ops, the enjoyment soon wears off especially when you're not exactly getting wholehearted support for doing your duty from the powers that be other than media friendly sound bites.
BTW I'm glad I'm leaving too, otherwise I'd have stayed in.
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Sadly, I feel a once only opportunity has passed through the fingers of those in power. Huge expectation that Brown might be the man to change tack on Iraq has evaporated. CDS, on R4 World at One gave an extensive interview about the state of play. No word of a draw down in Iraq, only the possibility of more troops for Afg.
We are sending troops to 2 civil wars with no prospect of an end in sight for either.
Forget 10 year PVR records, stand by for an exodus. Outflow has been disguised by draw down. No more. The real situation will soon become obvious.
We are sending troops to 2 civil wars with no prospect of an end in sight for either.
Forget 10 year PVR records, stand by for an exodus. Outflow has been disguised by draw down. No more. The real situation will soon become obvious.
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It's the little things . . . .
Blogger hit a large number of nails square on:
Quote:
Risk management has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicemen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.
The big things like deployments and ops are what we do, we expect that and get on with it (last year was the first without a deployment since 1991- screened post otherwise I’d have had another 4-6 months somewhere). Having to do more with less has been a common refrain since I joined - I remember the 'old and bold' predicting doom and destruction of the world as we knew it when the RAF was cut from 98000 to 94500 (halcyon days!) in 1985.
Nowadays I find it is the little things that really get under my skin:
Introduction of JPA when it clearly wasn't ready, but hey, let's take it 'at risk'
Promotion notification by workflow and/or email
Reduction in disturbance allowance that was disseminated by PPrune(!)
Paying food and accommodation for courses you have no choice in attending
Allowances on a system that is so Byzantine most people give up (but I suspect that was the plan all along).
All these things are indicative of a management that doesn't care about their staff - they'll put up with it. It also highlights the discomfort they are willing to put their personnel through for very little return - how much are they really saving by making people pay the food/accom for example? And where is that money being spent - sure as hell it isn't on improving either the food or the accommodation.
I've only listed a few things that have irritated over the past few months, and I am sure that lots of other people could add to it, but they are the constant chips at the terms and conditions we have come to expect. As such they are all the more corrosive to the morale because they are endless, in one direction only, are meaningless savings in the greater scheme, and cause needless angst amongst those already under pressure.
I have thoroughly enjoyed my time in the RAF and would love to continue to work with some of the best people I've ever come across, but I'm afraid I'm not going to continue to do so whilst we have senior officers dismissing genuine concerns with 'don't like it, get out' comments. I am truly sorry to have to say I don't like it, and I'll be leaving now.
Quote:
Risk management has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicemen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.
The big things like deployments and ops are what we do, we expect that and get on with it (last year was the first without a deployment since 1991- screened post otherwise I’d have had another 4-6 months somewhere). Having to do more with less has been a common refrain since I joined - I remember the 'old and bold' predicting doom and destruction of the world as we knew it when the RAF was cut from 98000 to 94500 (halcyon days!) in 1985.
Nowadays I find it is the little things that really get under my skin:
Introduction of JPA when it clearly wasn't ready, but hey, let's take it 'at risk'
Promotion notification by workflow and/or email
Reduction in disturbance allowance that was disseminated by PPrune(!)
Paying food and accommodation for courses you have no choice in attending
Allowances on a system that is so Byzantine most people give up (but I suspect that was the plan all along).
All these things are indicative of a management that doesn't care about their staff - they'll put up with it. It also highlights the discomfort they are willing to put their personnel through for very little return - how much are they really saving by making people pay the food/accom for example? And where is that money being spent - sure as hell it isn't on improving either the food or the accommodation.
I've only listed a few things that have irritated over the past few months, and I am sure that lots of other people could add to it, but they are the constant chips at the terms and conditions we have come to expect. As such they are all the more corrosive to the morale because they are endless, in one direction only, are meaningless savings in the greater scheme, and cause needless angst amongst those already under pressure.
I have thoroughly enjoyed my time in the RAF and would love to continue to work with some of the best people I've ever come across, but I'm afraid I'm not going to continue to do so whilst we have senior officers dismissing genuine concerns with 'don't like it, get out' comments. I am truly sorry to have to say I don't like it, and I'll be leaving now.
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Slight thread drift. Out of the country at present but have heard that Innsworth is closed due to the floods in Glos. If this is true then PVRs won't be actioned until the PMA (now ACOS Manning I believe) deskies get back.
Any news on when they might get back in?
Scapegoat
Any news on when they might get back in?
Scapegoat