Jaguar handling
Thread Starter
Jaguar handling
A fairly recent accident report referred to the Jaguar's "hard-edged" handling characteristics, and reading other odds and ends over the years leaves one with the impression that it could be quite demanding in some regimes.
Out of sheer interest, was this really the case? If so, I'd be most interested in the reasons. One of our staff cadets raised the issue whilst we were admiring the example in the Cosford static on Sunday. I said I thought it might be to do with the B/A ratio, the lateral control system and the very high wing loading, but was I on the right track or was that total garbage?
Enlightenment greatly appreciated.
Out of sheer interest, was this really the case? If so, I'd be most interested in the reasons. One of our staff cadets raised the issue whilst we were admiring the example in the Cosford static on Sunday. I said I thought it might be to do with the B/A ratio, the lateral control system and the very high wing loading, but was I on the right track or was that total garbage?
Enlightenment greatly appreciated.
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One aerodynamic deficiency of the Jaguar was weak directional stablity at high incidence. It was basically underfinned. Compare with the Tornado (Norfolk Shark).
The incidence limits had to be respected at all times. With heavy centreline stores the roll centre was lowered and the aeroplane was limited to 14 alpha instead of the usual 17.
High roll rates at high incidence could induce inertial roll-yaw coupling (but then again the Lightning would do this).
As the 38 Group Jaguar display pilot, I aways flew it with all pylons removed (to reduce the drag index) except the wing outboards. These were aft of the centre of gravity and slightly improved the directional stability. This was of greater importance than the small drag penalty.
Dynamic pressure availabilty was vital. I slow-rolled it at 500ft agl, but never below 400KIAS.
Sadly there were many accidents and fatalities due to mis-handling. Stick with the rule book and it was a rewarding aeroplane.
JP
The incidence limits had to be respected at all times. With heavy centreline stores the roll centre was lowered and the aeroplane was limited to 14 alpha instead of the usual 17.
High roll rates at high incidence could induce inertial roll-yaw coupling (but then again the Lightning would do this).
As the 38 Group Jaguar display pilot, I aways flew it with all pylons removed (to reduce the drag index) except the wing outboards. These were aft of the centre of gravity and slightly improved the directional stability. This was of greater importance than the small drag penalty.
Dynamic pressure availabilty was vital. I slow-rolled it at 500ft agl, but never below 400KIAS.
Sadly there were many accidents and fatalities due to mis-handling. Stick with the rule book and it was a rewarding aeroplane.
JP
You sound like a QFI to me JP!! Stick to the rule book in 1 v 1 and get shot down by all the junior pilots on the squadron. The aircraft flew perectly well at some extreme Alpha but I do know it is very limited on 1 engine!!
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If you were VERY careful you could get 22 alpha out of it (normal 17 max).
Then again, I also had a nice young man depart one on me by rolling and pushing at the same time (so not much alpha at all). Beat all the roll rates that day.
Interestingly, all those top dogs at Boscombe couldn't make head nor tail of the HUD video. It was only years later when I was pushing and rolling an Extra 300 did I see it all again - negative flick roll.
Great jet and loved flying it.
Then again, I also had a nice young man depart one on me by rolling and pushing at the same time (so not much alpha at all). Beat all the roll rates that day.
Interestingly, all those top dogs at Boscombe couldn't make head nor tail of the HUD video. It was only years later when I was pushing and rolling an Extra 300 did I see it all again - negative flick roll.
Great jet and loved flying it.
Right from the beginning it displayed some interesting handling characteristics, even when straight and level - viz the first three ship flypast at Lossiemouth in front of HRH to mark the formation of the first Jag Squadron (or it might have been the OCU). The (apparent) PIO and subsequent break out in front of the assembled multitude looked quite interesting.
I might add it was many years before I was able to experience flights in the Jaguar, and enjoyed every minute of them, although never reaching any extreme attitudes. I also realised quite quickly that whilst I might be able to fly it
I would never have been able to operate it, and (banter caption OFF) the guys who did had my full respect.
I might add it was many years before I was able to experience flights in the Jaguar, and enjoyed every minute of them, although never reaching any extreme attitudes. I also realised quite quickly that whilst I might be able to fly it
I would never have been able to operate it, and (banter caption OFF) the guys who did had my full respect.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
although never reaching any extreme attitudes
It did much better after they put in real engines in it.....
(It did make for some nice quiet days at Colt back in '75, mind, when the temperature got into the 80s.)
Well this thread is getting a great response JP!! I do love it when all you can resort to is SOG!!! Seems the old sense of humour is not as good as it used to be.
There was a certain instructor on the OCU who always told his students to "Watch the China Alpha" or was it "Watch the Alpha China" ? So we all knew the limits. That was until we got to a squadron and found out what the aircraft was really capable of doing!
So Im off to the bunker again to await your flak!!
There was a certain instructor on the OCU who always told his students to "Watch the China Alpha" or was it "Watch the Alpha China" ? So we all knew the limits. That was until we got to a squadron and found out what the aircraft was really capable of doing!
So Im off to the bunker again to await your flak!!
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Newt,
"Seems the old sense of humour is not as good as it used to be".
No change in my sense of humour so:
Done this months Q roster yet?
catch up number 4 - smoke on go....
By the way, I for one know that the jet was much more limited on no engines than on one!
JP
"Seems the old sense of humour is not as good as it used to be".
No change in my sense of humour so:
Done this months Q roster yet?
catch up number 4 - smoke on go....
By the way, I for one know that the jet was much more limited on no engines than on one!
JP
Thread Starter
Many thanks for the replies so far. Re-reading the XZ108 accident report, there's reference to a video entitled "Jaguar Handling at High Incidence". Was this as interesting as it sounds?
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Jag Handling
The trouble with posing questions like ACW599's original is that it is bound to flush out a batch of 'knowledgeable' QFIs! My recollection is that the latter were to be generally ignored until a week or 2 before one's annual check-ride!
But to the matter in hand and Newt's focus on 1v1 in a telephone box with the old pussy cat. I seem to recall that it was all about feeling the aircraft through the stick and airframe. In the 'older' days of not-so-carefree handling, no self-respecting pilot ever won a 'doggers' by looking through or around the HUD for alpha; he (there were no shes then!) did so by flying the aircraft and looking out where it mattered! This, of course, explains why QFIs were always walking around on the end of a 'pipper'; never was a breed of pilot so adept at manoeuvring into the 12 O'Clock!
The design authorities recognised this fact of Jaguar combat life and so retro-fitted an audio stall-warning device. Rather cleverly, it became more distracting, and hugely annoying, as the alpha increased; to the point, in fact, that one might be in serious danger of losing the fight. So, the same self-resepcting pilots found the off switch for that little device. Just like they found the little buttons on the engine instrument panel that magically gave you a little more poke at the moment critique! Mind you, the authorities soon had those little rascals disabled! Why? Because they detected rapidly rising fun meters for those obvioulsy non-QFI pilots who had discovered the thrust buttons (and, yes, unbelievably they were introduced into service without announcement!); and because engines were being cooked at an alarming rate!
I wonder what JP will have to say about all of that?!!
But to the matter in hand and Newt's focus on 1v1 in a telephone box with the old pussy cat. I seem to recall that it was all about feeling the aircraft through the stick and airframe. In the 'older' days of not-so-carefree handling, no self-respecting pilot ever won a 'doggers' by looking through or around the HUD for alpha; he (there were no shes then!) did so by flying the aircraft and looking out where it mattered! This, of course, explains why QFIs were always walking around on the end of a 'pipper'; never was a breed of pilot so adept at manoeuvring into the 12 O'Clock!
The design authorities recognised this fact of Jaguar combat life and so retro-fitted an audio stall-warning device. Rather cleverly, it became more distracting, and hugely annoying, as the alpha increased; to the point, in fact, that one might be in serious danger of losing the fight. So, the same self-resepcting pilots found the off switch for that little device. Just like they found the little buttons on the engine instrument panel that magically gave you a little more poke at the moment critique! Mind you, the authorities soon had those little rascals disabled! Why? Because they detected rapidly rising fun meters for those obvioulsy non-QFI pilots who had discovered the thrust buttons (and, yes, unbelievably they were introduced into service without announcement!); and because engines were being cooked at an alarming rate!
I wonder what JP will have to say about all of that?!!
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Newt,
OK as long as SOG isn't on at the same time. Where is he by the way?
ACW599
May I suggest that if you have not flown the Jaguar you would find it interesting. I believe it is called "The Jaguar at High Incidence".
Some good radar-tracked ground photography of the jet departing controlled flight at high altitude, but not spinning as most pilots would interpret the term. Included is in-cockpit footage and commentary.
However, to those of us who have flown it - not that interesting, as Bob Viking has said.
JP
OK as long as SOG isn't on at the same time. Where is he by the way?
ACW599
May I suggest that if you have not flown the Jaguar you would find it interesting. I believe it is called "The Jaguar at High Incidence".
Some good radar-tracked ground photography of the jet departing controlled flight at high altitude, but not spinning as most pilots would interpret the term. Included is in-cockpit footage and commentary.
However, to those of us who have flown it - not that interesting, as Bob Viking has said.
JP
Thread Starter
>May I suggest that if you have not flown the Jaguar you would find it interesting. I believe it is called "The Jaguar at High Incidence".<
Hmm. I'd have sold my soul to the devil for a Jaguar trip but was adjudged too tall to fit.
The video sounds fascinating; assuming it's not classified, I'll ask DASC whether they have a copy for the crewroom collection.
Hmm. I'd have sold my soul to the devil for a Jaguar trip but was adjudged too tall to fit.
The video sounds fascinating; assuming it's not classified, I'll ask DASC whether they have a copy for the crewroom collection.
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Hmm. I'd have sold my soul to the devil for a Jaguar trip but was adjudged too tall to fit.
I've some in cockpit photos somewhere of us lined up on Colts runway, shortly before the nasty pilot made me throw up.
Thread Starter
>Then you should have been top cadet at an ATC summer camp at Colt a few years back, that got me placed under the care of a really nice bunch of chaps and a flight in a T2.<
One of the great regrets of my life is that I was all set for a trip in a Lightning T5 at UAS summer camp many moons ago and the bl**dy thing went U/S.
One of the great regrets of my life is that I was all set for a trip in a Lightning T5 at UAS summer camp many moons ago and the bl**dy thing went U/S.
Last edited by ACW599; 14th Jun 2007 at 23:23. Reason: For T4 read T5, obviously. Been a long week...
ACW599:
Same thing happened to me while out in Luqa mid 70s, I was working on 203 Sqd at the time, real bummer when it went u/s.
One of the great regrets of my life is that I was all set for a trip in a Lightning T4 at UAS summer camp many moons ago and the bl**dy thing went U/S.
