Nimrod Information
Call me a cynic, but it just sounds to me like this guy is a tory looking for ammunition to score points over the current govt in the house for political gain. I could be wrong and he may really care about the RAF, however I would urge caution as to what you divulge - it could bite you and I suspect he won't give two hoots. The tone of parts of his thread implies to me that his motivation is not as noble as he would like you to think.
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For JFZ90, from Wikipedia with love 
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Liddell-Grainger was born at Edinburgh and educated at Millfield School in Somerset and South Scotland Agricultural College. Before entering Parliament he ran a 250 acre farm in the Scottish Borders, and later became a company director in Newcastle of his family holdings in the City. He was also a Major in the Territorial Army with the 6th Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, commanding the machine-gun Platoon and then X Company of the Battalion in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and has often acted as an adviser to the Ministry of Defence.
Liddell-Grainger is on the Public Administration Committee in the House of Commons. He is also a member of the All Parliamentary Armed Forces Scheme with the Royal Air Force. Liddell-Grainger was previously on the DEFRA select committee and the Scottish Committee, as well as on the all Parliamentary Radio Group and the Pharmaceutical Group. His interests include the economy, constitutional affairs, rural matters and he has also spoken out in favour of making Herceptin available for early-stage breast cancer sufferers.
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Sounds like a decent man - sure he's Conservative, but then no-one's perfect
(joke)
To be honest, I dont care whether he's Labour, Tory, or bloody Martian. If this man can help deliver our Armed Forces out of the un-equipped, underfunded chaos we've been stuck in for years, then he's got my support.
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Liddell-Grainger was born at Edinburgh and educated at Millfield School in Somerset and South Scotland Agricultural College. Before entering Parliament he ran a 250 acre farm in the Scottish Borders, and later became a company director in Newcastle of his family holdings in the City. He was also a Major in the Territorial Army with the 6th Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, commanding the machine-gun Platoon and then X Company of the Battalion in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and has often acted as an adviser to the Ministry of Defence.
Liddell-Grainger is on the Public Administration Committee in the House of Commons. He is also a member of the All Parliamentary Armed Forces Scheme with the Royal Air Force. Liddell-Grainger was previously on the DEFRA select committee and the Scottish Committee, as well as on the all Parliamentary Radio Group and the Pharmaceutical Group. His interests include the economy, constitutional affairs, rural matters and he has also spoken out in favour of making Herceptin available for early-stage breast cancer sufferers.
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Sounds like a decent man - sure he's Conservative, but then no-one's perfect
(joke)To be honest, I dont care whether he's Labour, Tory, or bloody Martian. If this man can help deliver our Armed Forces out of the un-equipped, underfunded chaos we've been stuck in for years, then he's got my support.
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i thinks it great a mp who actually takes a proper intrest in what the people who work with these aircraft actually have to say.
as a member of the armed forces i am appualled by the treatment of us by the goverment.
ive recently been told by higher authority that my trade is to be made obsolete because its a non deployable trade meaning there is no operational need for us in places like afgan and iraq. however we do work in akotiri and falklands where there is an established post for our trade. which are now closed to us.
so for those who have not left or are waiting to leave the trade. we are going to be sent to hubs where they are going to gather the last of our trade so we can see our time out.
but here is the part which is the kick in the teeth we will be used to go out to afgan and iraq as driver escort and guards. and while we are at the hubs we will be in/wating/just back from these places.
its just a mess please someone sort it out
as a member of the armed forces i am appualled by the treatment of us by the goverment.
ive recently been told by higher authority that my trade is to be made obsolete because its a non deployable trade meaning there is no operational need for us in places like afgan and iraq. however we do work in akotiri and falklands where there is an established post for our trade. which are now closed to us.
so for those who have not left or are waiting to leave the trade. we are going to be sent to hubs where they are going to gather the last of our trade so we can see our time out.
but here is the part which is the kick in the teeth we will be used to go out to afgan and iraq as driver escort and guards. and while we are at the hubs we will be in/wating/just back from these places.
its just a mess please someone sort it out
Mr Liddell-Grainger. Have you got any Pongo mates up there in Westminster who might want to start a similar crusade on behalf of us green types? Good on you!
Drumstick
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Remember Churchill and the Wg Cdr.
Look where Churchill got.
Certainly 'channels' would ensure that what was passed was 'wholly accurate' and free from errors of interpretation. Note 'wholly' as related to accurate and not 'whole'.
Look where Churchill got.
Certainly 'channels' would ensure that what was passed was 'wholly accurate' and free from errors of interpretation. Note 'wholly' as related to accurate and not 'whole'.
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Are we here
Sorry chicken leg lol
But are we here to talk about my English or the RAF.
So what my English is a bit
but at least im trying.
MONKEYBOY
Personally i would like to see the RAF and the other armed forces stopped getting cut and get the equipment and manpower we so despretly need (i know my spell check don't work)
But are we here to talk about my English or the RAF.
So what my English is a bit
but at least im trying.MONKEYBOY
Personally i would like to see the RAF and the other armed forces stopped getting cut and get the equipment and manpower we so despretly need (i know my spell check don't work)
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Call me a cynic, but it just sounds to me like this guy is a tory looking for ammunition to score points over the current govt
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Tappers Dad
Seeing as this is about info on the Nimrod and it's safety, PVR rates, general dissent amongst those at ISK, I was wondering if you'd managed to aquire all the information you've been after for the BBC program you've been working closely with, that's due to air at the time of the BOI report. From what I've seen here, you've had a wealth of information.
Seeing as this is about info on the Nimrod and it's safety, PVR rates, general dissent amongst those at ISK, I was wondering if you'd managed to aquire all the information you've been after for the BBC program you've been working closely with, that's due to air at the time of the BOI report. From what I've seen here, you've had a wealth of information.
Last edited by Laboratoryqueen; 3rd May 2007 at 22:00.
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Call me old fashioned. But rather than second guessing (as is so rife on this forum) why not let the Board of Inquiry publish their results. I still have faith in the system, if many don't.
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If the speculation as to events that day were to stop, then a lot of hurt and upset could have been avoided and not added to the suffering already felt. Some people do not seem to realise that comments made in the press have had dire consequences on other families involved in this accident, and some of those who have been upset the most have been children. Some things which have been reported should never have made it into the media.
The BOI report is due very shortly, yes it is with the legal team, though I doubt very much that the speculation will end with that.
Some people would like to be allowed to grieve and not have their loved ones dragged through the press at every given opportunity
The BOI report is due very shortly, yes it is with the legal team, though I doubt very much that the speculation will end with that.
Some people would like to be allowed to grieve and not have their loved ones dragged through the press at every given opportunity
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I presume, Mr Liddell-Grainger, you are one of the many MPs I met last year - I had so many 'popping in' to tell me how hard life must have been and tending an ever-so-sympathetic ear, yet at the same time scraping for a bit of 'gen' to help secure your position in the 'house'.
Thanks for your 'sympathy', but I really have doubts as to your and many of your kind's actual motivation for digging into something which is:
a. beyond your comprehension
and b. a vehicle to further your political presence.
If you can do something, then I would be very, VERY appreciative, but slamming the Royal Air Force does not help anybody. It comes down to money - and that is beyond me, my immediate superior (line manager for those of that bent) or anyone else up the ladder.
Stretched, working hard with the resources we are left with and rather quite p*ssed off that those who might be able to intervene are looking in the wrong place.
Convince us, in this open forum, that your interest is well founded.
Thanks for your 'sympathy', but I really have doubts as to your and many of your kind's actual motivation for digging into something which is:
a. beyond your comprehension
and b. a vehicle to further your political presence.
If you can do something, then I would be very, VERY appreciative, but slamming the Royal Air Force does not help anybody. It comes down to money - and that is beyond me, my immediate superior (line manager for those of that bent) or anyone else up the ladder.
Stretched, working hard with the resources we are left with and rather quite p*ssed off that those who might be able to intervene are looking in the wrong place.
Convince us, in this open forum, that your interest is well founded.
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betty, lab queen & snow dog,
Why are you all so anti someone offering to help here?
I too still have faith in the BOI route, and I have little doubt that the results will be truthful and honest. But what I don't have faith in, is for it to publish the facts and problems with the fleet leading up to this accident.
It is many years since I was on the Nimrod fleet, and so I cannot speak first hand about on-going problems with fuel leaks etc. however, friends and colleagues still on the fleet tell me that it was 'more than common' and I would suggest that further incidents since the loss of XV230 seem to confirm that.
Now I dont know this politician from Adam, I've never met him nor do I know anything about him, but out of all this tragedy, he is the one, and only person who has stuck his head above the parapit and offered to help. What's wrong with that?? I don't know or care what his motives are frankly; if he can get something done then we should applaud him and support him.
Snow Dog, your final comments speak volumes:
'Stretched, working hard with the resources we are left with and rather quite p*ssed off that those who might be able to intervene are looking in the wrong place'
I couldn't agree with you more, so why not give the guy a call or drop him a line and tell him where its all going wrong?? It's pointless us all coming on Prune, bleating and whinging like we all do, and then pass up an opportunity to do something positive, when the opportunity arises.
We owe to the likes of Tappers Dad and the rest of the families left behind so lets just do it.
TSM
Why are you all so anti someone offering to help here?
I too still have faith in the BOI route, and I have little doubt that the results will be truthful and honest. But what I don't have faith in, is for it to publish the facts and problems with the fleet leading up to this accident.
It is many years since I was on the Nimrod fleet, and so I cannot speak first hand about on-going problems with fuel leaks etc. however, friends and colleagues still on the fleet tell me that it was 'more than common' and I would suggest that further incidents since the loss of XV230 seem to confirm that.
Now I dont know this politician from Adam, I've never met him nor do I know anything about him, but out of all this tragedy, he is the one, and only person who has stuck his head above the parapit and offered to help. What's wrong with that?? I don't know or care what his motives are frankly; if he can get something done then we should applaud him and support him.
Snow Dog, your final comments speak volumes:
'Stretched, working hard with the resources we are left with and rather quite p*ssed off that those who might be able to intervene are looking in the wrong place'
I couldn't agree with you more, so why not give the guy a call or drop him a line and tell him where its all going wrong?? It's pointless us all coming on Prune, bleating and whinging like we all do, and then pass up an opportunity to do something positive, when the opportunity arises.
We owe to the likes of Tappers Dad and the rest of the families left behind so lets just do it.
TSM
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I am not against help towards giving the RAF what they need to be able to perform their work in a professional manner, What I am against is the amount of speculation, the lies, the hurtful comments, and the amount of needless details which have been printed in the press. None of those have had any bearing on gaining support or a change in manpower or resources for the RAF or the services as a whole.
Yes it is agonising waiting for the BOI report, it has been a very deeply agonising time ever since that fateful day, and some matters have not helped in this. No one wants to see more names added to the list of casualties or deaths, under any circumstances, there have been too many already.
Too often it's reported about the bad, hardly ever has it been mentioned of the support that has been given by the RAF and all the guys at ISK as a whole.
The BBC program which is being produced, if that was to show support for the need to increase resources, and to aid the fight in this area, then why were the RAF press officers not made aware of it's existence, not even those at ISK.
Yes it is agonising waiting for the BOI report, it has been a very deeply agonising time ever since that fateful day, and some matters have not helped in this. No one wants to see more names added to the list of casualties or deaths, under any circumstances, there have been too many already.
Too often it's reported about the bad, hardly ever has it been mentioned of the support that has been given by the RAF and all the guys at ISK as a whole.
The BBC program which is being produced, if that was to show support for the need to increase resources, and to aid the fight in this area, then why were the RAF press officers not made aware of it's existence, not even those at ISK.
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Nimrod Information
Very interesting Ian, I note that you made your posting on the very same day that Angus Robertson got a reply to his question on Nimrod fuel defects. Had to jump on the band-waggon.
1st May Hansard
Angus Robertson (Moray SNP): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the average annual fuel defect rates of the Nimrod fleet per fifty flying hours were in each of the last 10 years: and will he make a statement.
Adam Ingram (Minister of State (Armed Forces) MoD): The average annual fuel system defect ("fuel defect" is defined as any reported fault relating to the aircraft fuel system) rate per 50 flying hours for Nimrod fleet over the last 10 calendar years for which information is currently available, is as follows:
1996 3.93
1997 4.61
1998 4.72
1999 4.64
2000 3.83
2001 3.81
2002 3.83
2003 3.99
2004 4.75
2005 3.80
This tells me two things (1) If I want real action I will approach the MP who covers the Kinloss area (and I recommend others to do the same), and (2) MoD believes that the Nimrod fuel system was better in 2005 than in 1996. If you believe the latter you will believe anything, and it gives us some indication of what sort of BOI report will be issued by MoD when they decide to do it.
DV
1st May Hansard
Angus Robertson (Moray SNP): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the average annual fuel defect rates of the Nimrod fleet per fifty flying hours were in each of the last 10 years: and will he make a statement.
Adam Ingram (Minister of State (Armed Forces) MoD): The average annual fuel system defect ("fuel defect" is defined as any reported fault relating to the aircraft fuel system) rate per 50 flying hours for Nimrod fleet over the last 10 calendar years for which information is currently available, is as follows:
1996 3.93
1997 4.61
1998 4.72
1999 4.64
2000 3.83
2001 3.81
2002 3.83
2003 3.99
2004 4.75
2005 3.80
This tells me two things (1) If I want real action I will approach the MP who covers the Kinloss area (and I recommend others to do the same), and (2) MoD believes that the Nimrod fuel system was better in 2005 than in 1996. If you believe the latter you will believe anything, and it gives us some indication of what sort of BOI report will be issued by MoD when they decide to do it.
DV
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DV, very interesting but surely the phrase 'fuel defect' is wholly ambiguous.
For instance a fuel defect may be the erroneous indication of a fuel flow indicator to a fuel tank problem.
'A fuel tank problem' was how the failure of a test launch of the Thor missile was described. The actual problem was the failure of the bottom of the fuel tank to lift off at the same speed as the rest of the missile.
In other words, lies , damn lies and . . .
For instance a fuel defect may be the erroneous indication of a fuel flow indicator to a fuel tank problem.
'A fuel tank problem' was how the failure of a test launch of the Thor missile was described. The actual problem was the failure of the bottom of the fuel tank to lift off at the same speed as the rest of the missile.
In other words, lies , damn lies and . . .
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Telling it how it is
The reference to Churchill and the wing commander was actually a reference to Desmond Morton of SIS http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/news...ill.asp?ID=192
and the BBC Drama The Gathering Storm http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...ng_storm.shtml
essentially how you need proper and accurate information to persuade those who do not wish to acknowledge uncomfortable truths.
and the BBC Drama The Gathering Storm http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...ng_storm.shtml
essentially how you need proper and accurate information to persuade those who do not wish to acknowledge uncomfortable truths.