The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians
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From the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6530801.stm
The pertinent bit is
Chief of Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said the crew looked "very happy" and "in good shape".
"They did exactly as they should have done from start to finish in this entire incident and we're extremely proud of them," he added.
If its good enough for him, then it should be good enough for the rest of us.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6530801.stm
The pertinent bit is
Chief of Defence Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, said the crew looked "very happy" and "in good shape".
"They did exactly as they should have done from start to finish in this entire incident and we're extremely proud of them," he added.
If its good enough for him, then it should be good enough for the rest of us.
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Let's get this in proportion here... the reaction against Sets original post is diabolical... These sailors are not heroes... they behaved probably like most people would behave who were not part of Britains defence forces... rather like a bunch of people taken hostage while on holiday.. yes.. they did the right thing to save themselves from ill treatment... and no evidence of ill treatment was visible. Far from being "Bloody and Bandaged" they didnt even look tired or stressed so why give interviews stating that they had strayed into Iranian waters ? RTI has no relevence here... they were not in captivity long enough for it to have been employed before giving the interviews...
Interesting historical fact that throughout history our peacetime 'warriors' often do not fair well when things hot up and a whole new breed comes to the fore... As for silly statements about women being treatened with gang-rape unless.... etc etc.. if this is likely to have any effect then don't send them into the front line... if they want to be there then they have to take their chances. Like the rest of us.
AS for old Jock Strap... as the classic phrase goes..."well, he would say that wouldn't he"... wouldn't want funding cut for the armed forces.
And no.. I'm not at present sitting in an arm chair.
Interesting historical fact that throughout history our peacetime 'warriors' often do not fair well when things hot up and a whole new breed comes to the fore... As for silly statements about women being treatened with gang-rape unless.... etc etc.. if this is likely to have any effect then don't send them into the front line... if they want to be there then they have to take their chances. Like the rest of us.
AS for old Jock Strap... as the classic phrase goes..."well, he would say that wouldn't he"... wouldn't want funding cut for the armed forces.
And no.. I'm not at present sitting in an arm chair.
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Mungo, thanks for that. I was beginning to think that I was completely off the wall in every contributor's mind. All I was asking for was some sort of military behaviour from some military people, or so I thought.
I wonder how many people who were immediate in their criticism and abuse of me have sat where you are now (physically) and done the same job that you are doing now. (like I have) Don't know your aircraft type, but have been detached to your location (either of the possibles) many times.
I wonder how many people who were immediate in their criticism and abuse of me have sat where you are now (physically) and done the same job that you are doing now. (like I have) Don't know your aircraft type, but have been detached to your location (either of the possibles) many times.
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just my view
In some ways it has been hard to read some of the above post's.
As for me, I really disliked seeing any of the fifteen appearing to be pally with any Iranians. As with all of the rest of you, I have no idea how they have been treated. BUT, there is a big difference in being treated nice, and being able to walk away, and being treated nice, and then your HOST can at any time, put you in prison, or kill you.
It bothered me to see them, as They appeared as "pawns" in someone else's battle of ego's.
It's not often that any of us Ppruner's praise our own Prime minister, let alone Iran's!. In my past, I have been very scared (during military service), sometimes justified, sometimes not. But watching those fifteen on tv, i was very aware of all this being a game. That we arn't at war with Iran. there was no need to stick with the big four. and lastly, these were the real people that mattered, they are collectively, mum's, son's, dad's. I wanted them back with no death's, injuries or raised tensions. I am very very pleased to see them home, and my only remaining worry, is that they could possibly feel they have let themselves or their families down (especially if they get to converse with folks like "set" etc.). Well I think they did bl**dy great, and should be very proud of their role. Stuff RTI, or SEERI, these folks had no training in "ego maniac warmongering" either.
I'm sorry to have ranted on here, but this has got to me, I'm sick of people telling others to act tough, just so they can feel good. "SET" even if you had been captured yourself, and held, and resisted bitterly. You still could not say you would be the same the second time, could you.
As for me, I really disliked seeing any of the fifteen appearing to be pally with any Iranians. As with all of the rest of you, I have no idea how they have been treated. BUT, there is a big difference in being treated nice, and being able to walk away, and being treated nice, and then your HOST can at any time, put you in prison, or kill you.
It bothered me to see them, as They appeared as "pawns" in someone else's battle of ego's.
It's not often that any of us Ppruner's praise our own Prime minister, let alone Iran's!. In my past, I have been very scared (during military service), sometimes justified, sometimes not. But watching those fifteen on tv, i was very aware of all this being a game. That we arn't at war with Iran. there was no need to stick with the big four. and lastly, these were the real people that mattered, they are collectively, mum's, son's, dad's. I wanted them back with no death's, injuries or raised tensions. I am very very pleased to see them home, and my only remaining worry, is that they could possibly feel they have let themselves or their families down (especially if they get to converse with folks like "set" etc.). Well I think they did bl**dy great, and should be very proud of their role. Stuff RTI, or SEERI, these folks had no training in "ego maniac warmongering" either.
I'm sorry to have ranted on here, but this has got to me, I'm sick of people telling others to act tough, just so they can feel good. "SET" even if you had been captured yourself, and held, and resisted bitterly. You still could not say you would be the same the second time, could you.
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"I would have thought that even a basic knowledge of current affairs would have told these guys that there was nothing that the Iranians could have done to them without incurring the world and his wife's ire. I would have thought that this might have convinced them of the unlikelihood of it occurring."
Set 18 what exactly do you think we could have done about it? they held all the cards and we knew it! neiter the Americans and certainly not us are in a position to go storming over the border guns blazing in angry reaction to anything that they may have done.
Iran knows fine well that we the west haven't got the stomach politically or publically for another ding dong that we can't possibly win in the middle east.
You say about basic knowledge with regards to current affairs, well these Service personnel demonstrated that they had plenty! they knew fine well that nobody in the West was ever going to take what they were saying seriously! they also new that Middle Eastern Culture is deeply offended if you turn down gifts, food or hospitality and by doing so would only make their stay more difficult.
They were also savvy enough to realise that their families at home would be watching, worriedly looking into the screens to see how they were coping, by eating, shaving and dressing in the gifts given to them their poor relatives at least knew that they were safe and well.
Whilst the Iranians weren't ever going to harm them for fear of complete isolation, the Sailors and marines conducted themselves perfectly well from what little we saw, your conduct after capture training that you have done so much of, will you remember tell you that no two situations are the same and that there are indeed many ways in which to skin a cat in order to "survive with dignity"
Set 18 what exactly do you think we could have done about it? they held all the cards and we knew it! neiter the Americans and certainly not us are in a position to go storming over the border guns blazing in angry reaction to anything that they may have done.
Iran knows fine well that we the west haven't got the stomach politically or publically for another ding dong that we can't possibly win in the middle east.
You say about basic knowledge with regards to current affairs, well these Service personnel demonstrated that they had plenty! they knew fine well that nobody in the West was ever going to take what they were saying seriously! they also new that Middle Eastern Culture is deeply offended if you turn down gifts, food or hospitality and by doing so would only make their stay more difficult.
They were also savvy enough to realise that their families at home would be watching, worriedly looking into the screens to see how they were coping, by eating, shaving and dressing in the gifts given to them their poor relatives at least knew that they were safe and well.
Whilst the Iranians weren't ever going to harm them for fear of complete isolation, the Sailors and marines conducted themselves perfectly well from what little we saw, your conduct after capture training that you have done so much of, will you remember tell you that no two situations are the same and that there are indeed many ways in which to skin a cat in order to "survive with dignity"
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SET18
And if you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, you will know better than to comment at all on those matters.
Are you current, and your point?
MaroonMan
Spot on.
Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.
unless you are familiar with Conduct after Capture or Resistance to Interrogation techniques, it's probably better not to comment at all on those matters. Regardless of what training these personnel had or had not received, those in the know realize exactly what they are going through and why they are behaving the way they are.
I DO have a lot of R to I training, thank you.
I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
I remain disappointed than none of them refused to capitulate. Servicemen and women are told in no uncertain terms about what awaits them when they go to that part of the world.
MaroonMan
But if a Serving person having attended some of the excellent courses on offer to us Service individuals you will also be aware that ANY discussion on this subject may place those that heaven forbid maybe in this situation in the future at risk.
Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.
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See. slight thread hijack but THATS how you deal with idiots
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/c...nbram=1&nbwm=1
wish this govt had been more robust with Iran though.....also is it me or did the uniform appear Brand new out of the box so to speak, would have thought it better to leave em in the suits meself
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/c...nbram=1&nbwm=1
wish this govt had been more robust with Iran though.....also is it me or did the uniform appear Brand new out of the box so to speak, would have thought it better to leave em in the suits meself
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Pontius
~Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.~
I think that the 15 were in country at the specific request, or was it command, of the host nation!
Somehow I dont think the matelots and marines would have been expecting to be captured when crewing one of her Majesties finest gunboats.
HEDP
~Mungo, you may be further east, you may have had CAC training but I can assure you that your CAC would be quite different to theirs. You, after all, are in-country at the express request of the host government.~
I think that the 15 were in country at the specific request, or was it command, of the host nation!
Somehow I dont think the matelots and marines would have been expecting to be captured when crewing one of her Majesties finest gunboats.
HEDP
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Pontius, first quote: not mine.
Second: Yes I am. My point is that an int brief given before entering theatre would have updated these guys on all aspects of the region. Iran is not an overly nice place (because of its regime), but I am confident that they would have known (as much as anyone can) that there is just no way that they would have come to any physical harm.
Although the Iranians were very bold, they are not stupid. Seriously, did you ever doubt that this whole episode would ever end any differently? I cannot see why they did not know that they were being used politically, and their willingness to be so only hurt their own country's standing further.
I know lots of you are now going to be queueing up for a pop at me but that is how I see it.
Second: Yes I am. My point is that an int brief given before entering theatre would have updated these guys on all aspects of the region. Iran is not an overly nice place (because of its regime), but I am confident that they would have known (as much as anyone can) that there is just no way that they would have come to any physical harm.
Although the Iranians were very bold, they are not stupid. Seriously, did you ever doubt that this whole episode would ever end any differently? I cannot see why they did not know that they were being used politically, and their willingness to be so only hurt their own country's standing further.
I know lots of you are now going to be queueing up for a pop at me but that is how I see it.
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Forget
Exercise Umber mean anything?
I lived in Tehran for two years. Bl**dy awful place, but very hospitable people
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"UK captives tell of ill treatment
Royal Navy personnel seized by Iran were blindfolded, bound and held in isolation during their 13 days in captivity, the crew have said.
They were lined up while weapons were cocked, making them "fear the worst", two of the 15 crew revealed.
The crew were told if they did not admit they were in Iranian waters when captured that they faced seven years in prison, a press conference heard. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm
Fancy retracting your original statement now, SET - it wasn't such a walk in the park, after all, was it?
Royal Navy personnel seized by Iran were blindfolded, bound and held in isolation during their 13 days in captivity, the crew have said.
They were lined up while weapons were cocked, making them "fear the worst", two of the 15 crew revealed.
The crew were told if they did not admit they were in Iranian waters when captured that they faced seven years in prison, a press conference heard. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6533069.stm
Fancy retracting your original statement now, SET - it wasn't such a walk in the park, after all, was it?
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Airborne etc...
Iranian treatment of RN personnel was disgusting, despicable and inexcusable behavior... not to be tolerated and well outside of all acceptable conventions...
So... never mind about SET's comments.... What do you suggest we do about the Iranians ?
Iranian treatment of RN personnel was disgusting, despicable and inexcusable behavior... not to be tolerated and well outside of all acceptable conventions...
So... never mind about SET's comments.... What do you suggest we do about the Iranians ?
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Leave them and their middle eastern friends to it! get the **** out of there, let Israel do it's own thing and come home!
Put it all down as a bad mistake that we can learn from and steer clear of in the future.
If bush wants to have a pop at some idiots in a god forsaken ****hole with no objectives and no chance of winning if we did have any then let him do it on his own, it's about time we woke up and realised that the world is a far more dangerous place for all America's meddling.
Regime change? I can think of Two that need changing significantly more urgently than any out East!
Put it all down as a bad mistake that we can learn from and steer clear of in the future.
If bush wants to have a pop at some idiots in a god forsaken ****hole with no objectives and no chance of winning if we did have any then let him do it on his own, it's about time we woke up and realised that the world is a far more dangerous place for all America's meddling.
Regime change? I can think of Two that need changing significantly more urgently than any out East!
As a pure civilian, I was not at all surprised to see them being friendly and polite and co-operative, for all of the reasons outlined above by all of those qualified to comment. (Not at war, likely pressure being exerted, R2I for 24 hours only, etc.)
I was, however, more surprised to see their co-operation extending to admissions of 'guilt' which were always likely to cause the UK embarrassment and difficulty.
Let me reiterate - no criticism of the 15 is intended or implied - I simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be qualified to offer it.
But I'd have thought that it would be possible to co-operate, to praise the Iranians for their hospitality, warmth, welcome, understanding, etc. and politely but firmly refuse to talk about the position where they were picked up along the lines "I'm not the navigator, but we were sure that we were in Iraqi waters. A mistake or technical error is always possible, but there was no deliberate intrusion."
And I suspect that the vast bulk of the country will be expressing or feeling the same sort of feelings.
I was, however, more surprised to see their co-operation extending to admissions of 'guilt' which were always likely to cause the UK embarrassment and difficulty.
Let me reiterate - no criticism of the 15 is intended or implied - I simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be qualified to offer it.
But I'd have thought that it would be possible to co-operate, to praise the Iranians for their hospitality, warmth, welcome, understanding, etc. and politely but firmly refuse to talk about the position where they were picked up along the lines "I'm not the navigator, but we were sure that we were in Iraqi waters. A mistake or technical error is always possible, but there was no deliberate intrusion."
And I suspect that the vast bulk of the country will be expressing or feeling the same sort of feelings.
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Jacko,
You said it.
The primary job of a captive is to stay alive. To do that you do whatever is necessary.
Remember Faye had been isolated and told that everyone else had been sent home. Remember also she used the word 'apparently'. Similarly the TV 'confession' used weasle words.
Th emost remarkable thing was the dissent amongst pprune 'experts' or were they agent provocateurs, rubbishing the Royal Navy, MOD and Government take on it.
"Our men were 1.7 nm inside Iraqi waters."
"Oh no they weren't. The Iranians had it right, the GPS was faked. The GPS was on the wrong datum. The charts used by the MOD were not WG84. Who believes the Prime Minister. Margaret Beckett . . . "
Now imagine that the captives had been shown extracts from pprune? Your friends think you were wrong. Your friends think you shouldn't have talked etc.
Mmm.
I simply don't have the knowledge or experience to be qualified to offer it.
The primary job of a captive is to stay alive. To do that you do whatever is necessary.
Remember Faye had been isolated and told that everyone else had been sent home. Remember also she used the word 'apparently'. Similarly the TV 'confession' used weasle words.
Th emost remarkable thing was the dissent amongst pprune 'experts' or were they agent provocateurs, rubbishing the Royal Navy, MOD and Government take on it.
"Our men were 1.7 nm inside Iraqi waters."
"Oh no they weren't. The Iranians had it right, the GPS was faked. The GPS was on the wrong datum. The charts used by the MOD were not WG84. Who believes the Prime Minister. Margaret Beckett . . . "
Now imagine that the captives had been shown extracts from pprune? Your friends think you were wrong. Your friends think you shouldn't have talked etc.
Mmm.
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Watch the Capt RM's interview on BBC - he said he was careful to qualify what he said on the TV "confession" - it all makes sense, but he got all his guys out alive and unharmed, and that has to be the main aim.
History gives us an alternative.
Private John Moyse of the East Kent Regiment was captured by the Chinese during the Second Opium War 1860. He was ordered to kneel in front of the local Mandarin and refused. He would kneel to no chinaman.
His treatment and behaviour was set down for all time in the poem by Sir Francis Hastings Doyle "Private of the Buffs"
Nearly forgot to tell you what happened to him.
They kicked the sh*t out of him, chopped off his head and threw his body on a dung heap.
I'm just glad to see our men and lady safely home.
Heroics have a time and place. This wasn't it.
Private John Moyse of the East Kent Regiment was captured by the Chinese during the Second Opium War 1860. He was ordered to kneel in front of the local Mandarin and refused. He would kneel to no chinaman.
His treatment and behaviour was set down for all time in the poem by Sir Francis Hastings Doyle "Private of the Buffs"
Nearly forgot to tell you what happened to him.
They kicked the sh*t out of him, chopped off his head and threw his body on a dung heap.
I'm just glad to see our men and lady safely home.
Heroics have a time and place. This wasn't it.
Last edited by ericferret; 6th Apr 2007 at 18:26. Reason: spelling
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IMHO,
these 15 personnel are not the people we should be are focussing on as they are home safe and sound. excellent news, job done.
Lets not forget that there are 6 families grieving tonight after the worst week in 2 years for the British forces in Iraq.
My thoughts are with all of those families tonight.
these 15 personnel are not the people we should be are focussing on as they are home safe and sound. excellent news, job done.
Lets not forget that there are 6 families grieving tonight after the worst week in 2 years for the British forces in Iraq.
My thoughts are with all of those families tonight.