The reaction of the British captives to the Iranians
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Col Jacobs
Donīt get wound up by some has-been Col from the US. While we might respect what veterans did in their day, many, like him, are not able to adjust to modern military operations. Would he really have acted differently if picked up by Soviets near a border in the Cold War? Of course not. Did his countrymen start shooting when the US aircraft was captured by the Chinese? No. Perhaps if he applied his attention to some of the activities of his own forces in certain countries, we might be able to win their hearts and minds instead of p***ing them off!
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The difference is: the good colonel is speaking from the point of view of someone who is at war with Iran, (as to all intents and purposes, every regular viewer of US Fox News is). The young servicemen who found themselves looking down the barrels of the Revolutionary Guards' guns don't - (or didn't) - consider themselves at war with Iran.
I find myself hoping that the senior officers who put the 15 into the impossible position they found themselves in suffer very close scrutiny of their actions. And I don't mean just the ship's captain - I mean way above that, right up to those wearing suits rather than uniforms.
I also find myself wondering what some of the enlisted men, particularly the Royal Marines, will be saying to their debriefing officers about their reactions to the order to lay down their arms.
I find myself hoping that the senior officers who put the 15 into the impossible position they found themselves in suffer very close scrutiny of their actions. And I don't mean just the ship's captain - I mean way above that, right up to those wearing suits rather than uniforms.
I also find myself wondering what some of the enlisted men, particularly the Royal Marines, will be saying to their debriefing officers about their reactions to the order to lay down their arms.
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Some years ago, a B52 pilot visited my base to talk about his experiences in Vietnam as a POW, giving us first hand advice on the subject of resistance to interrogation.
He was quite clear. Information was the key to staying alive TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY. He said that he fed them snippets of perishable, out-of-date info which meant that instead of getting 20 lashes, he only got 10.
A Marine pilot who was with him in the camp resisted completely, and spent the rest of his life with a broken mind and body in a VA mental hospital. Dying before he reached his 50th birthday.
Anybody who believes that the Iranians would not tortue or even kill our servicemen is naive. This team did exactly the right thing - they cooperated fully to achieve the aim of returning unharmed. Now they can go back and be ready to 'kick ass' as our American cousins might say.
He was quite clear. Information was the key to staying alive TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY. He said that he fed them snippets of perishable, out-of-date info which meant that instead of getting 20 lashes, he only got 10.
A Marine pilot who was with him in the camp resisted completely, and spent the rest of his life with a broken mind and body in a VA mental hospital. Dying before he reached his 50th birthday.
Anybody who believes that the Iranians would not tortue or even kill our servicemen is naive. This team did exactly the right thing - they cooperated fully to achieve the aim of returning unharmed. Now they can go back and be ready to 'kick ass' as our American cousins might say.
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Missing the point?
I wonder whether some are missing the point(s)?
The mentality of people in that part of the world, it seems to me, having met many but not travelled there (happily), is rather different to the European or US.
This incident shows that they do not fear us, that means that they do not respect us, and that means big trouble.
The other overwhelming point in my eyes was what on earth were their commanders doing allowing them in to public view. Our armed forces and MoD now seem to have the collective wit and wisdom of Jade Goody. Was it on direct orders by Tone 'I would do anything for a soundbite' Straightkindaguy?
I hope that if I were in that situation I would have walked off that aeroplane naked and I would be looking for an Iranian up whose jacksy to stuff those bloody pistachios.
The mentality of people in that part of the world, it seems to me, having met many but not travelled there (happily), is rather different to the European or US.
This incident shows that they do not fear us, that means that they do not respect us, and that means big trouble.
The other overwhelming point in my eyes was what on earth were their commanders doing allowing them in to public view. Our armed forces and MoD now seem to have the collective wit and wisdom of Jade Goody. Was it on direct orders by Tone 'I would do anything for a soundbite' Straightkindaguy?
I hope that if I were in that situation I would have walked off that aeroplane naked and I would be looking for an Iranian up whose jacksy to stuff those bloody pistachios.
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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I'm happy they are home, too. But...
I would like to have seen some little tidbit of resistance as they did what they were told to do by the Iranians; some visual discomfort with their seemingly casual breaking of faith with their country. What I saw was easy acceptance of their staged confessions of theirs and Britain's guilt for all the world to witness.
I don't know what your Code of Conduct requires, but under ours, I would have some consternation upon my return in this circumstance as I answer for my behavior while in captivity. The RN and Marines have something to be a tad sheepish about in discussing this incident in the future.
Keeping it in perspective, though, the real criminals here are the Iranians who created the situation in the first place.
I would like to have seen some little tidbit of resistance as they did what they were told to do by the Iranians; some visual discomfort with their seemingly casual breaking of faith with their country. What I saw was easy acceptance of their staged confessions of theirs and Britain's guilt for all the world to witness.
I don't know what your Code of Conduct requires, but under ours, I would have some consternation upon my return in this circumstance as I answer for my behavior while in captivity. The RN and Marines have something to be a tad sheepish about in discussing this incident in the future.
Keeping it in perspective, though, the real criminals here are the Iranians who created the situation in the first place.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I would like to have seen some little tidbit of resistance
Remember the broadcasts were not immediate. They told Faye she was the only one retained in Iran and the rest had been freed. What sort of pysops is that?
You saw only a couple of televised appearances (many times) towards the end. They resisted.
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I was unfortunate enough to see the US CNN report of the release of these guys. In general, the US TV coverage has been the typical sensationalist reporting one expects from a news "show".
There have been several interviews with US "experts" and the thrust has been along the lines of "US servicemen are highly trained..blah blah blah...would not have revealed ANY information or given "confessions"
Mind you - they also billed Jock Stirrup as a "British Royal Marines"
There have been several interviews with US "experts" and the thrust has been along the lines of "US servicemen are highly trained..blah blah blah...would not have revealed ANY information or given "confessions"
Mind you - they also billed Jock Stirrup as a "British Royal Marines"
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I thought the captured Bristish Serviceman was obliged, by whatever means possible, to rejoin Her Majestys Forces. Granted, we are not at war with Iran. But there are no prizes for rejoining HM Forces feet first. Nice to have you back folks.
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Yellow **** Eyes
Green Flash, nicely put. When I first read your post I thought I was in for one of the tunnel stories.
That is a difference from WW2 as well. There the captive was only a few hundred miles from home on the same continent with a physical appearance similar to his captors. In Vietnam the escapee or evader was at a slight disadvantage to quote "at 6ft 2in and 220lbs I looked a little different from the little yellow slope eyed bastards."
In Vietnam there was also a degree of tactical intelligence that was not time critical and hence worth preserving. In Afg the information would be very time critical. In Iraq it would simply be jump into an orange suit and lose your head - if you had time to change
.
The Big 3 and then Big 4 were for POW in conventional, symetric warfare. One of the POW in the Falklands War (I won't mention his name) had not had RTI training despite being in a prone to capture job. Nor had he assimilated all the available war films. He was 'interrogated' subtly by an expert who passed himself off as an aircrew mate and extracted rather more information than he would had he used strong arm tactics. The Big 4 would have been appropriate in this case but he had not been trained.
That is a difference from WW2 as well. There the captive was only a few hundred miles from home on the same continent with a physical appearance similar to his captors. In Vietnam the escapee or evader was at a slight disadvantage to quote "at 6ft 2in and 220lbs I looked a little different from the little yellow slope eyed bastards."
In Vietnam there was also a degree of tactical intelligence that was not time critical and hence worth preserving. In Afg the information would be very time critical. In Iraq it would simply be jump into an orange suit and lose your head - if you had time to change
.The Big 3 and then Big 4 were for POW in conventional, symetric warfare. One of the POW in the Falklands War (I won't mention his name) had not had RTI training despite being in a prone to capture job. Nor had he assimilated all the available war films. He was 'interrogated' subtly by an expert who passed himself off as an aircrew mate and extracted rather more information than he would had he used strong arm tactics. The Big 4 would have been appropriate in this case but he had not been trained.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 9th Apr 2007 at 07:00. Reason: to amend 'slit eye' to 'slope eye' after James Leite complained
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Whatever happened to them over there, the only comment they ought to make on the ridiclous media spin circus that seems to dominate and pervade all aspects of our society should be......
"I have no comment to make on any matter. Thank you and goodbye"
That way they can't be misquoted or do harm to our troops and operations still ongoing, and I agree any fees should go to the funds
"I have no comment to make on any matter. Thank you and goodbye"
That way they can't be misquoted or do harm to our troops and operations still ongoing, and I agree any fees should go to the funds
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"I have no comment to make on any matter. Thank you and goodbye"
A pity that something closer to those words couldn't have been employed while still in captivity.
A pity that something closer to those words couldn't have been employed while still in captivity.