AOC 1 Group
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The solution is obvious. Of course you should fly the aircraft into the offending vehicle.
From another thread it would appear to be SOP in SOAF
and survive of course.
From another thread it would appear to be SOP in SOAF
and survive of course.
Flap62
We quite rightly parade our outrage and indignance at the reprehensible actions of suicide bombers in the middle and far east. How would this type of action play on Al Jaz television?
In a word, badly, so your sensible point is both well made and well said. There have been enough suicidal people in cockpits already in this decade.
Jack
In a word, badly, so your sensible point is both well made and well said. There have been enough suicidal people in cockpits already in this decade.
Jack
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Errrr, buy a few more helos, keep practising vehicle stops.....and hey presto, no need to fly expensive jets and highly trained jocks therof into the ground.
Should I put in a 'gem' to 1 Gp? Might be worth 20 quid..
Second thoughts, they'll read as far as the word 'helo' and file swiftly under B1N!
And I thought these AOC chaps were supposed to consider the 'big picture'.
Should I put in a 'gem' to 1 Gp? Might be worth 20 quid..
Second thoughts, they'll read as far as the word 'helo' and file swiftly under B1N!
And I thought these AOC chaps were supposed to consider the 'big picture'.
Last edited by nice castle; 3rd Apr 2007 at 10:21. Reason: spooling
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How about we get decent kit that doesnt fail or we dont do the OP? (its certainly improving, but, as usual a few years late).
How about we dont go to war without the right number of people? (Who downsizes whilst struggling with retention?)
How about we dont go through a huge transformational period in the armed forces whilst at the same time fighting a war on two fronts? (No, we are all expected to "man up" and do our bit, just deal with it...)
Now, THAT would be leadership. I personally would stand up and be counted by any senior officer that stood up for the things his/or her troops had been screaming about for the past 2 years... and I am not just talking about 1 Grp here... there is a significant lack of voice when it comes to speaking up against paltry 400 million increases in the defence budget.
How about we dont go to war without the right number of people? (Who downsizes whilst struggling with retention?)
How about we dont go through a huge transformational period in the armed forces whilst at the same time fighting a war on two fronts? (No, we are all expected to "man up" and do our bit, just deal with it...)
Now, THAT would be leadership. I personally would stand up and be counted by any senior officer that stood up for the things his/or her troops had been screaming about for the past 2 years... and I am not just talking about 1 Grp here... there is a significant lack of voice when it comes to speaking up against paltry 400 million increases in the defence budget.
Kamikaze
I can see that the AOC was trying to provoke debate in his usually provocative way. I certainly wouldn't crticise him for that - the more intellectual debate we have on the use of force in all its forms, the better informed our future decision makers will be.
If I were to venture comment on provoking debate in this way, it would be that the individual should have considered the type of audience, the manner the question was posed and the rank gradient between himself and the audience. That it was silent and not prepared to engage in debate on a contentious subject merely relects that the manner it was put to them was poorly judged - if the point was to encourage discussion, not merely to leave the thought for further consideration.
I, as serviceman, am a little disturbed by some of the attitudes that have surfaced. Those of us who serve have an unlimited liability; many of us test the odds of that being realised by going in harms way on a daily basis and for sustained periods (a lot of them doing it as I type this). The vast majority, who get paid very little by comparison to aircrew and use inferior equipment, accept their calling with honour and integrity and frankly 'man-up' (sorry girls, but you know what I mean) to the (statistically much greater) risk that they may be the man/woman who will have to go into a situation that requires the ultimate sacrifice. There has been too little leadership at all levels in the RAF to reinforce the core ethos that ensures ithe moral component contributes fully to an effective fighting force in the broadest spectrum of operations. It is no suprise that the other Services view elements of the RAF as a joke - not the kit, but the people - and see it as little more than the militant wing of British Airways. The RAF should be offended to its roots that many in the Army would rather be supported by the USAF even if that brings an increased risk of fratricide. The RAF has been corrupted by cynicism and an attitude that places the individual needs above the team needs and the team needs above the mission. That is all wrong, and I applaud AOC 1 Gp for making the point, albeit in a manner that I would not wholly agree with.
Rant ends.
If I were to venture comment on provoking debate in this way, it would be that the individual should have considered the type of audience, the manner the question was posed and the rank gradient between himself and the audience. That it was silent and not prepared to engage in debate on a contentious subject merely relects that the manner it was put to them was poorly judged - if the point was to encourage discussion, not merely to leave the thought for further consideration.
I, as serviceman, am a little disturbed by some of the attitudes that have surfaced. Those of us who serve have an unlimited liability; many of us test the odds of that being realised by going in harms way on a daily basis and for sustained periods (a lot of them doing it as I type this). The vast majority, who get paid very little by comparison to aircrew and use inferior equipment, accept their calling with honour and integrity and frankly 'man-up' (sorry girls, but you know what I mean) to the (statistically much greater) risk that they may be the man/woman who will have to go into a situation that requires the ultimate sacrifice. There has been too little leadership at all levels in the RAF to reinforce the core ethos that ensures ithe moral component contributes fully to an effective fighting force in the broadest spectrum of operations. It is no suprise that the other Services view elements of the RAF as a joke - not the kit, but the people - and see it as little more than the militant wing of British Airways. The RAF should be offended to its roots that many in the Army would rather be supported by the USAF even if that brings an increased risk of fratricide. The RAF has been corrupted by cynicism and an attitude that places the individual needs above the team needs and the team needs above the mission. That is all wrong, and I applaud AOC 1 Gp for making the point, albeit in a manner that I would not wholly agree with.
Rant ends.
I know the story well and I'm inspired and humbled by the leadership and sacrifice. What happened to the RAF's fighting spirit? It comes from leadership (at all levels) not on whether you've got the best kit.
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Flaps62,
"for you to say that this type of comment and response should cause us to look at the place our profession has in the modern world would be ridiculous if it were not so laughable
Eh? Why? A critical eye towards what one does is surely no bad thing.
"Try telling all the people who have carried the burden of Ops for the last 6 years that we are in a position where we can consider losing assets and highly trained people on 1 target, however valuable."
Well guess what, I'm one of them. So don't bother with the sanctimonious lecture.
Now - you decide. Is 1 aircraft and 1 pilot more or less valuable than the lives of the thousands that might die in any terrorist attack using aircraft on Canary Wharf or any other mass casualty scenario? Should you not at least consider the question rather than dismiss it out of hand? Is there a different answer if the target is a pickup with an AQ leader in the back? Probably, but why? Do you know? We live in a different world where terrorists seem unafraid to die and we need to know what the implications are. I am sure the AVM would not ever plan such a response, but he is definitely justified in getting his audience at the conference to think about it.
If we cannot contemplate some potentially serious and real issues in what we do, for fear of upsetting the intellectually challenged and myopic out there, then we are worse off.
"for you to say that this type of comment and response should cause us to look at the place our profession has in the modern world would be ridiculous if it were not so laughable
Eh? Why? A critical eye towards what one does is surely no bad thing.
"Try telling all the people who have carried the burden of Ops for the last 6 years that we are in a position where we can consider losing assets and highly trained people on 1 target, however valuable."
Well guess what, I'm one of them. So don't bother with the sanctimonious lecture.
Now - you decide. Is 1 aircraft and 1 pilot more or less valuable than the lives of the thousands that might die in any terrorist attack using aircraft on Canary Wharf or any other mass casualty scenario? Should you not at least consider the question rather than dismiss it out of hand? Is there a different answer if the target is a pickup with an AQ leader in the back? Probably, but why? Do you know? We live in a different world where terrorists seem unafraid to die and we need to know what the implications are. I am sure the AVM would not ever plan such a response, but he is definitely justified in getting his audience at the conference to think about it.
If we cannot contemplate some potentially serious and real issues in what we do, for fear of upsetting the intellectually challenged and myopic out there, then we are worse off.
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I think that all of us that go to theatre know the full risks, but there is a subtle but distinct difference beween taking an extreme (calculated) risk to get the job done, as we all do from time to time whilst in the sand pit, as opposed to sacrificing ones life (as a certainty) for a nation that is not even your own. We are not talking about flying our aircraft into another to prevent possible harm to our Monarch or Government institution, we are talking about certain death acting upon information provided to us by a third party.... BIG difference in my opinion.
Would I risk my life to defend friends I had served with, colleagues I have a close bond with? Certainly. Would I crash an aircraft into a third-party target on the whim of an Into? I dont know. But to make comparisons of guys on the front line (squaddies) that yes, risk more than we do, often thanklessly, for their bretheren IS different from the sacrifice suggested. There is no reward in this instance for sacrificing all to in effect, act as a human 1000 lb'er.
Would I risk my life to defend friends I had served with, colleagues I have a close bond with? Certainly. Would I crash an aircraft into a third-party target on the whim of an Into? I dont know. But to make comparisons of guys on the front line (squaddies) that yes, risk more than we do, often thanklessly, for their bretheren IS different from the sacrifice suggested. There is no reward in this instance for sacrificing all to in effect, act as a human 1000 lb'er.
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Of course there were many precedents during the Second World War.
I cannot evaluate the validity of otherwise of Fighter Command ramming the Luftwaffe or Bomber Command prssing on with crippled bombers just to drop their bombs and then crash.
The big difference was we had plenty of replacement aircraft and a reasonably plentiful supply or replacement aircrew.
Now we have neither.
Could we, in all conscience, afford to lose say 15% of our in-theatre forces on the possibility, and only the possibility, of decapitating the AQ leadership?
A_A,
Just read your post and of course it is the other side of the same coin I mentioned. You might also consider Amethyst and Cornwall.
We are in a different world.
I cannot evaluate the validity of otherwise of Fighter Command ramming the Luftwaffe or Bomber Command prssing on with crippled bombers just to drop their bombs and then crash.
The big difference was we had plenty of replacement aircraft and a reasonably plentiful supply or replacement aircrew.
Now we have neither.
Could we, in all conscience, afford to lose say 15% of our in-theatre forces on the possibility, and only the possibility, of decapitating the AQ leadership?
A_A,
Just read your post and of course it is the other side of the same coin I mentioned. You might also consider Amethyst and Cornwall.
We are in a different world.
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Top marks to benedick! Achieving national media coverage with his first prune post is mightily impressive 
Well done!
And a big
to those who poo poo'd him
Now if we can just get them to publicize all the other broken bits we might get somewhere.
Well done!And a big
to those who poo poo'd himNow if we can just get them to publicize all the other broken bits we might get somewhere.
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how does one achieve a dream posting to 'the RAF's elite 1 Group'?
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I do have to say that I think AOC 1 Gp is one of the few 'seat of the pants' tell it like it is senior officers that garners my respect. I think that anyone who deploys now and does not consider what their involvement means is deluding themselves. By signing on the dotted line and remaining in service you agree that you are willing to make that sacrifice; if you arent and dont believe that, then you should leave.
Command is a lonely place and unpopular decisions have to be made, all he was doing was trying to stimulate debate and remind individuals of the need to consider the unthinkable. Some of the comments on this thread are appalling, on the 25 anniversary of the start of the Falklands I am disgusted that some of my peers think this way and comment to erode the service in comparison to our brothers in the Navy and Army.
Get on with it, do your Jobs, consider what may be required of you and if you dont like it get out. I dont believe I can support this Governments position and I am leaving in a couple of months but until then I will do my duty.
MAN UP or MOVE ON...........
Command is a lonely place and unpopular decisions have to be made, all he was doing was trying to stimulate debate and remind individuals of the need to consider the unthinkable. Some of the comments on this thread are appalling, on the 25 anniversary of the start of the Falklands I am disgusted that some of my peers think this way and comment to erode the service in comparison to our brothers in the Navy and Army.
Get on with it, do your Jobs, consider what may be required of you and if you dont like it get out. I dont believe I can support this Governments position and I am leaving in a couple of months but until then I will do my duty.
MAN UP or MOVE ON...........
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Shame - we know where cokecan comes from..
Unfortunately for your parent Service, the shame of your carping on crabs will not be confined to you, but will be shared by your shipmates. Best you stay close to the bilges from where I suspect you emerged and where you certainly belong!
Avoid imitations
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"
Get on with it, do your Jobs, consider what may be required of you and if you dont like it get out. I dont believe I can support this Governments position and I am leaving in a couple of months but until then I will do my duty.
MAN UP or MOVE ON..........."
Strong words. What if, on your last day before you leave, you were ordered to fly yourself and your aircraft into a terrorist vehicle?
Get on with it, do your Jobs, consider what may be required of you and if you dont like it get out. I dont believe I can support this Governments position and I am leaving in a couple of months but until then I will do my duty.
MAN UP or MOVE ON..........."
Strong words. What if, on your last day before you leave, you were ordered to fly yourself and your aircraft into a terrorist vehicle?
"Shame - we know where cokecan comes from..
Unfortunately for your parent Service, the shame of your carping on crabs will not be confined to you, but will be shared by your shipmates. Best you stay close to the bilges from where I suspect you emerged and where you certainly belong!"
no fishhead me.
my providence is somewhat Greener.
are you getting your knickers in a twist at being called out by one of your own senior officers? not so much 'the few', more 'the militant wing of EasyJet....'
Unfortunately for your parent Service, the shame of your carping on crabs will not be confined to you, but will be shared by your shipmates. Best you stay close to the bilges from where I suspect you emerged and where you certainly belong!"
no fishhead me.
my providence is somewhat Greener.
are you getting your knickers in a twist at being called out by one of your own senior officers? not so much 'the few', more 'the militant wing of EasyJet....'