Nimrods grounded rumour
Harrogate.......A fitting tribute to the guys for sure, perhaps you should start a new thread with them on it will be well recieved. Brought a tear to the eye that is for sure, whoever did it thought a lot about the guy and the 120 tribute the same, get it the publicity it deserves.
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Tappers Dad
I know its late, but hopefully never too late, to say I'm sorry for the loss of your son. I too lost in these blasted wars. I lost my future, only the past is left and a long search for the truth. Sometimes I feel that whatever is the truth is hidden, and sometimes its hidden by the wrong things. Every time I search for answers they are always overlaid by other peoples need to be right. Its so sad and soooo dangerous to suppose that one is right despite above and beyond all other reasoning. I hope you find what you are looking for, I never have and I have to live with the loss and the misery. God speed.
I know its late, but hopefully never too late, to say I'm sorry for the loss of your son. I too lost in these blasted wars. I lost my future, only the past is left and a long search for the truth. Sometimes I feel that whatever is the truth is hidden, and sometimes its hidden by the wrong things. Every time I search for answers they are always overlaid by other peoples need to be right. Its so sad and soooo dangerous to suppose that one is right despite above and beyond all other reasoning. I hope you find what you are looking for, I never have and I have to live with the loss and the misery. God speed.
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Tappers' Dad & 'the other half',
I hope that 'others need to be right' doesn't overshadow the truth, whatever that may be. I can only offer my condolences to you, and wish that you and yours find peace and some consolation in the fact that it is obvious your loved ones meant an awful lot to many others. The video on YouTube moved me, as I am sure it will many others. All the best,
someone going back to Kandahar.
I hope that 'others need to be right' doesn't overshadow the truth, whatever that may be. I can only offer my condolences to you, and wish that you and yours find peace and some consolation in the fact that it is obvious your loved ones meant an awful lot to many others. The video on YouTube moved me, as I am sure it will many others. All the best,
someone going back to Kandahar.
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Take care Bootflap.
I say this to all of you that take so many risks. No matter what, you are all special. Despite the comments, arguments, opinions, free for alls and often sanctimonious remarks, the majority of people won't take the risks you do to protect the rest of us. My heart goes with you, be safe, come home where you belong.
I say this to all of you that take so many risks. No matter what, you are all special. Despite the comments, arguments, opinions, free for alls and often sanctimonious remarks, the majority of people won't take the risks you do to protect the rest of us. My heart goes with you, be safe, come home where you belong.
From The Sunday Times
March 18, 2007
RAF rebels quit over fuel danger in ageing spy plane
Michael Smith
E-MAILS from RAF flight crew allege that Nimrod spy planes are being kept airborne despite repeated problems with fuel leaks such as the one suspected of causing the deaths of 14 servicemen.
The Sunday Times revealed last year that a fractured fuel pipe had led a 37-year-old Nimrod to explode over southern Afghanistan in September, killing all on board.
Now e-mails from flight crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in northeast Scotland show that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. But such is the pressure to keep the plane airborne to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once — last month.
Crews have been ordered to resume the practice of air-to-air refuelling — the Nimrod that crashed had just refuelled in mid-air and the board of inquiry believes the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line.
Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resulting blaze caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode. A Harrier filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000ft, where it broke up.
Leaked e-mails from a number of aircrew describe how morale has plummeted because of pressure to keep the ageing aircraft flying.
They state that crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers. “It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said.
“Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy is at an all-time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship.
“More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refuelling after each one.”
Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, insisted in a statement last week that the aircraft was safe and was being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”.
The RAF’s 17 Nimrod MR2s are based on the De Haviland Comet, the world’s first commercial airliner which began flying in 1949.
The MoD said a small number of aircrew had asked to leave Kinloss in January “as a result of increased job availability in the civil sector”.
March 18, 2007
RAF rebels quit over fuel danger in ageing spy plane
Michael Smith
E-MAILS from RAF flight crew allege that Nimrod spy planes are being kept airborne despite repeated problems with fuel leaks such as the one suspected of causing the deaths of 14 servicemen.
The Sunday Times revealed last year that a fractured fuel pipe had led a 37-year-old Nimrod to explode over southern Afghanistan in September, killing all on board.
Now e-mails from flight crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in northeast Scotland show that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. But such is the pressure to keep the plane airborne to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once — last month.
Crews have been ordered to resume the practice of air-to-air refuelling — the Nimrod that crashed had just refuelled in mid-air and the board of inquiry believes the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line.
Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resulting blaze caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode. A Harrier filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000ft, where it broke up.
Leaked e-mails from a number of aircrew describe how morale has plummeted because of pressure to keep the ageing aircraft flying.
They state that crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers. “It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said.
“Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy is at an all-time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship.
“More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refuelling after each one.”
Adam Ingram, the armed forces minister, insisted in a statement last week that the aircraft was safe and was being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”.
The RAF’s 17 Nimrod MR2s are based on the De Haviland Comet, the world’s first commercial airliner which began flying in 1949.
The MoD said a small number of aircrew had asked to leave Kinloss in January “as a result of increased job availability in the civil sector”.
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Nice to see The Sunday Times released their BoI findings last year, far ahead of anyone else.
What is the point of this article? Well, I suppose it keeps the Nimrod saga in the public eye, but it doesn't bring much to the table in terms of hard facts or anything else that hasn't already been fully aired on this site.
The fact remains that Nimrod is still an asset much in demand for lots of jobs in addition to the primary ones of ASW, ASuW and SAR. Unfortunately, the airframe is getting long in the tooth and requires a lot of maintenance. For that you need lots of qualified technicians, preferably with experience of legacy platforms. Where are they?
I hope the official BoI reports soon and provides answers to the families and friends of those trgically lost in XV230. Those still flying the Mighty Hunter have presumably made their own risk assessment. It is believed that some aircrew (front and back) have erred on the side of caution, others have taken advantage 'of increased job availability in the civil sector' as the MoD quaintly puts it!
Will the answers ever be known? Even Sherlock Holmes required evidence and I haven't seen a hangar full of wreckage yet.
The seeds of this tragedy, the loss of Hercules XV179, and all the other military scandals and deficiencies of recent times were sown many years ago. You may all have your own theories and explanantions, but in the first instance I suggest you direct your enquiries to:
Mr G Brown
11 Downing Street
LONDON SW1 1AA
What is the point of this article? Well, I suppose it keeps the Nimrod saga in the public eye, but it doesn't bring much to the table in terms of hard facts or anything else that hasn't already been fully aired on this site.
The fact remains that Nimrod is still an asset much in demand for lots of jobs in addition to the primary ones of ASW, ASuW and SAR. Unfortunately, the airframe is getting long in the tooth and requires a lot of maintenance. For that you need lots of qualified technicians, preferably with experience of legacy platforms. Where are they?
I hope the official BoI reports soon and provides answers to the families and friends of those trgically lost in XV230. Those still flying the Mighty Hunter have presumably made their own risk assessment. It is believed that some aircrew (front and back) have erred on the side of caution, others have taken advantage 'of increased job availability in the civil sector' as the MoD quaintly puts it!
Will the answers ever be known? Even Sherlock Holmes required evidence and I haven't seen a hangar full of wreckage yet.
The seeds of this tragedy, the loss of Hercules XV179, and all the other military scandals and deficiencies of recent times were sown many years ago. You may all have your own theories and explanantions, but in the first instance I suggest you direct your enquiries to:
Mr G Brown
11 Downing Street
LONDON SW1 1AA
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Smiter,
SW1A 1AA is not GB's postcode. It's a much bigger place at the top of the Mall. I'm lead to believe that the tenant there has a much higher regard for the Armed Services.
If you want to make a complaint to the bloke in 11 Downing Street the postcode SW1A 2AJ will get it to him a little faster.
I'm sure he will give it his full attention.
SW1A 1AA is not GB's postcode. It's a much bigger place at the top of the Mall. I'm lead to believe that the tenant there has a much higher regard for the Armed Services.
If you want to make a complaint to the bloke in 11 Downing Street the postcode SW1A 2AJ will get it to him a little faster.
I'm sure he will give it his full attention.
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Thanks for that CK, more attention to detail required 
From the 11 Downing St website:
Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP
Chancellor of the Exchequer
HM Treasury
1 Horse Guards Road
LONDON SW1A 2HQ
Couldn't bring myself to put right, honourable, Gordon and Brown in the same sentence.
Wholeheartedly agree with your other comment re resident at the top of The Mall.
For a stinging assessment of GB as his hold on the purse strings draws to a close, you may find this worthy of debate:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1530635.ece
From the 11 Downing St website:
Rt Hon Gordon Brown MP
Chancellor of the Exchequer
HM Treasury
1 Horse Guards Road
LONDON SW1A 2HQ
Couldn't bring myself to put right, honourable, Gordon and Brown in the same sentence.
Wholeheartedly agree with your other comment re resident at the top of The Mall.
For a stinging assessment of GB as his hold on the purse strings draws to a close, you may find this worthy of debate:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1530635.ece
Last edited by TheSmiter; 18th Mar 2007 at 12:19. Reason: Brainf@rt
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Stop calling the Nimrod the "Mighty Hunter
Perhaps its time to stop calling the Nimrod the "Mighty Hunter" and start calling it the "Widow Maker" .
Mmm doesn't conjure up the same image or have quite the same ring to it. But at least it is accurate. As for the article in The Times I think its good that some one feels that its time the "Widow Maker " was scrapped.
Mmm doesn't conjure up the same image or have quite the same ring to it. But at least it is accurate. As for the article in The Times I think its good that some one feels that its time the "Widow Maker " was scrapped.
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I'm Tappers brother, I made the YouTube video. I would rather not have had to of made it but thank you for all the comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4
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A shortened version of this article appeared in the Sunday Times yesterday. The full article shown below appeared on the Times website. It was written by Michael Smith, if you would like to comment on the article you can do so at this link:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_...andal_of_.html
March 17, 2007
The Scandal of the "Unsafe" RAF Aircraft Forced to Keep Flying
When an RAF Nimrod exploded over southern Afghanistan on September 2nd, everyone I know was struck by the sheer horror and tragedy of it all. It was that incident which led me to set up the In Memoriam post on this blog which lists all of those who have died in action since the British deployed to Helmand province. I railed against the MoD’s insistence that the 14-man crew of the Nimrod would not be categorised as having died in action but accepted that it was a mere technicality. Like everyone else I assumed that an inquiry would get underway and the problems that caused the explosion, and the tragic loss of life, would be sorted out. What a fool I was.
A series of emails from a number of air crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in north-east Scotland have been passed to this blog. They show the abysmal way in which they have been treated, forced to keep flying and to continue with the air-to-air refueling process that is believed to have caused the tragedy.
The Sunday Times revealed last year that a leaking fuel pipe led to the explosion that brought down the 37-year-old Nimrod XV230. But the emails reveal that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. Such is the pressure to keep the aircraft in the air to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once – last month. Crews have even been forced to continue the air-to-air refueling process thought to have led to the explosion and loss of life.
The Nimrod that crashed had just refueled in mid-air and while the difficulties of investigating an accident in Taliban-held territory have hampered the inquiry, it is believed the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line. Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resultant fire caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode.
A Harrier ground attack aircraft filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000 feet above the ground when the fuel tank in the wing exploded and the aircraft broke up. The emails describe how pressure to keep the aging aircraft flying amid uncertainty over the leaking fuel pipes has led morale to plummet. Angry crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers to other aircraft.
“It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said. “Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy are at an all time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship. More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refueling after each one.”
There was intense anger at RAF Kinloss when the crews were ordered to resume flying just four days after the original explosion. All the most experienced Nimrod pilots are leaving to work for civilian companies with some paying back bounties worth tens of thousands of pounds rather than stay in. The base is short of eight flight engineers, the air crew with the best technical understanding of the aircraft. Engineers from other bases are being forced to move to Kinloss but a number have resigned rather than do so.
In an email written shortly after the aircraft crashed, another RAF officer complained that the way in which crews were being kept in the dark was making matters worse. “We've not heard a dicky bird then suddenly the ACC [the then Air Component Commander] in the Gulf wants us airborne and tanker capable again. So, we had a jet air-to-air refueling over Kandahar four days after the accident!! Unbelievable. I can't see how that could ever possibly be considered to be good risk management.”
Adam Ingram, defence minister, insisted last week that the aircraft was safe and being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”. But one recently retired RAF pilot said: "I would describe the actions taken by higher level commanders following the crash of Nimrod XV230 as reckless. The task is clearly taking priority over safety, and airmen are being asked to take unnecessary risk. This aircraft is so old, I am not even sure it is possible to make it safe, however, the simple step of fitting fuel tank protection would go a long way to providing such safety."
The explosion in the wing tank is bound to lead to demands for suppressant foam to be fitted in the Nimrod wing tanks as well as those of the RAF’s Hercules transport aircraft. US Air Force Hercules and the US Navy P3 Orion, the American equivalent of the Nimrod, have had suppressant foam in their wings since the Vietnam War. As the fuel level in the tank goes down, foam fills the gap eliminating any air and therefore preventing combustion.
But typically cost-cutting left RAF aircraft unprotected until ten British servicemen were killed when a special forces Hercules was shot down over Iraq in January 2005. Insurgents managed to hit the aircraft wing fuel tank which exploded. An inquiry recommended that all operational Hercules have the foam fitted to their fuel tanks. More than 18 months later only seven of the RAF’s 48-strong fleet of Hercules have been converted. The Board of Inquiry into the Nimrod explosion is now expected to recommend that foam be fitted to the Nimrod wing tanks as well. I hope those who decided previously that it was not worth doing so can live with themselves.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_...andal_of_.html
March 17, 2007
The Scandal of the "Unsafe" RAF Aircraft Forced to Keep Flying
When an RAF Nimrod exploded over southern Afghanistan on September 2nd, everyone I know was struck by the sheer horror and tragedy of it all. It was that incident which led me to set up the In Memoriam post on this blog which lists all of those who have died in action since the British deployed to Helmand province. I railed against the MoD’s insistence that the 14-man crew of the Nimrod would not be categorised as having died in action but accepted that it was a mere technicality. Like everyone else I assumed that an inquiry would get underway and the problems that caused the explosion, and the tragic loss of life, would be sorted out. What a fool I was.
A series of emails from a number of air crew at the Nimrod’s base at RAF Kinloss in north-east Scotland have been passed to this blog. They show the abysmal way in which they have been treated, forced to keep flying and to continue with the air-to-air refueling process that is believed to have caused the tragedy.
The Sunday Times revealed last year that a leaking fuel pipe led to the explosion that brought down the 37-year-old Nimrod XV230. But the emails reveal that there have been six fuel leaks on board the aircraft since the explosion. Such is the pressure to keep the aircraft in the air to collect intelligence over Afghanistan and Iraq that they have been grounded just once – last month. Crews have even been forced to continue the air-to-air refueling process thought to have led to the explosion and loss of life.
The Nimrod that crashed had just refueled in mid-air and while the difficulties of investigating an accident in Taliban-held territory have hampered the inquiry, it is believed the pressure from the fuel pumped into the aircraft caused the leak in the fuel line. Escaping vapour was ignited either by an electrical fault or hot air and the resultant fire caused the starboard wing fuel tank to catch fire and explode.
A Harrier ground attack aircraft filmed the incident, following the Nimrod down to 3,000 feet above the ground when the fuel tank in the wing exploded and the aircraft broke up. The emails describe how pressure to keep the aging aircraft flying amid uncertainty over the leaking fuel pipes has led morale to plummet. Angry crew are leaving the Kinloss base “in droves”, either by resigning or demanding transfers to other aircraft.
“It’s not a nice place to work just now,” one Nimrod crew member said. “Confidence in both the aircraft and the hierarchy are at an all time low. Ground crew are leaving in droves and a number of aircrew, pilots, engineers and back end [surveillance operators], are jumping ship. More worrying are the six major leaks we have had since the accident and the hurry to resume air-to-air refueling after each one.”
There was intense anger at RAF Kinloss when the crews were ordered to resume flying just four days after the original explosion. All the most experienced Nimrod pilots are leaving to work for civilian companies with some paying back bounties worth tens of thousands of pounds rather than stay in. The base is short of eight flight engineers, the air crew with the best technical understanding of the aircraft. Engineers from other bases are being forced to move to Kinloss but a number have resigned rather than do so.
In an email written shortly after the aircraft crashed, another RAF officer complained that the way in which crews were being kept in the dark was making matters worse. “We've not heard a dicky bird then suddenly the ACC [the then Air Component Commander] in the Gulf wants us airborne and tanker capable again. So, we had a jet air-to-air refueling over Kandahar four days after the accident!! Unbelievable. I can't see how that could ever possibly be considered to be good risk management.”
Adam Ingram, defence minister, insisted last week that the aircraft was safe and being flown in “adherence to the procedures detailed within military airworthiness regulations”. But one recently retired RAF pilot said: "I would describe the actions taken by higher level commanders following the crash of Nimrod XV230 as reckless. The task is clearly taking priority over safety, and airmen are being asked to take unnecessary risk. This aircraft is so old, I am not even sure it is possible to make it safe, however, the simple step of fitting fuel tank protection would go a long way to providing such safety."
The explosion in the wing tank is bound to lead to demands for suppressant foam to be fitted in the Nimrod wing tanks as well as those of the RAF’s Hercules transport aircraft. US Air Force Hercules and the US Navy P3 Orion, the American equivalent of the Nimrod, have had suppressant foam in their wings since the Vietnam War. As the fuel level in the tank goes down, foam fills the gap eliminating any air and therefore preventing combustion.
But typically cost-cutting left RAF aircraft unprotected until ten British servicemen were killed when a special forces Hercules was shot down over Iraq in January 2005. Insurgents managed to hit the aircraft wing fuel tank which exploded. An inquiry recommended that all operational Hercules have the foam fitted to their fuel tanks. More than 18 months later only seven of the RAF’s 48-strong fleet of Hercules have been converted. The Board of Inquiry into the Nimrod explosion is now expected to recommend that foam be fitted to the Nimrod wing tanks as well. I hope those who decided previously that it was not worth doing so can live with themselves.
