Nimrods grounded rumour
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AAR pipes
Reply to BEagle. Yes the refuel gallery pipes in the bomb bay are single skin.
Jacko, no AAR as yet...
Tapper's dad. I know personnally that a number of engineers trying to fathom out this problem are passionate about finding an answer. What they find and what they report ( or are allowed to ) is another matter! I hope too that we get the truth.
Jacko, no AAR as yet...
Tapper's dad. I know personnally that a number of engineers trying to fathom out this problem are passionate about finding an answer. What they find and what they report ( or are allowed to ) is another matter! I hope too that we get the truth.
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AAR Fuel Lines
As an ex-Norman linney can someone help in answering the questions below?
The original AAR fuel lines fit carried out by RAF others like myself during and after the Falklands were originally above the floor leading down from the aircrew escape hatch in the cockpit to the centre of the aircraft around the galley area, as a young FLM I had to inspect these lines every AF, BF & TR for dents, perishing etc. I also had to carry out a nitrogen purge on a regular basis to ensure lines where clear of fuel and vapour, a task that is also required to be carried out after each AAR by the flight engineer.
Q1. BWoS got the contract to hide those fuel lines (damage prevention and ascetics), below the floor however the inspection task was not carried out until the next primary, minor servicing etc i.e. not on a daily basis, is this potentially an error in design in that it made it near impossible for any linney to detect or inspect the fuel lines? Is the BWoS design potentially deficient?
Q2. Don't BWoS have the current maintenance contract for the Norman fleet? Jobs originally done by qualified linney's going to aircraft builders not knowledgeable on operational constraints. Or doing it for £'s rather than heart, sad state of our services today!
Q3. As MRA4 is effectively the same structure as the MR2P or R1 what are the chances that the same design with the same issues is being utilised for the MRA4?
As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.
Tappers Dad I really feel for your loss and all those who have lost love ones on the most recent tragedy and the other aircraft over the years. I still have a relation still flying on these old but reliable jets every time something else happens I worry for him and his family. I really do hope they get to the truth but past experience tells me they'll try to hide it or brush it under the carpet because of operational security or “in the best interests of the country”, I hope I'm wrong!
The original AAR fuel lines fit carried out by RAF others like myself during and after the Falklands were originally above the floor leading down from the aircrew escape hatch in the cockpit to the centre of the aircraft around the galley area, as a young FLM I had to inspect these lines every AF, BF & TR for dents, perishing etc. I also had to carry out a nitrogen purge on a regular basis to ensure lines where clear of fuel and vapour, a task that is also required to be carried out after each AAR by the flight engineer.
Q1. BWoS got the contract to hide those fuel lines (damage prevention and ascetics), below the floor however the inspection task was not carried out until the next primary, minor servicing etc i.e. not on a daily basis, is this potentially an error in design in that it made it near impossible for any linney to detect or inspect the fuel lines? Is the BWoS design potentially deficient?
Q2. Don't BWoS have the current maintenance contract for the Norman fleet? Jobs originally done by qualified linney's going to aircraft builders not knowledgeable on operational constraints. Or doing it for £'s rather than heart, sad state of our services today!
Q3. As MRA4 is effectively the same structure as the MR2P or R1 what are the chances that the same design with the same issues is being utilised for the MRA4?
As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.
Tappers Dad I really feel for your loss and all those who have lost love ones on the most recent tragedy and the other aircraft over the years. I still have a relation still flying on these old but reliable jets every time something else happens I worry for him and his family. I really do hope they get to the truth but past experience tells me they'll try to hide it or brush it under the carpet because of operational security or “in the best interests of the country”, I hope I'm wrong!
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Lord Drayson said the following in the House of Lords on Monday the 26th Feb:
I am concerned about the Nimrods. Ongoing concerns about certain aspects of the fuel system on board are getting very careful attention. As I speak, the Nimrods have been able to be released to carry out their duties in Afghanistan.
Padraig Murphy:
Q1: How can hiding the pipes be an error in design or BAES being deficient, the pipes would have been checked and leak checked before all the flooring was put down. The reason it was done was to make the trial/temporary AAR capability permament and to prevent experienced lineys missing something and removed one more arduous task from the flight servicings.
Q2. Correct, but the guys doing the work are ex raf with experience on type additonally the work carried out by these guys is way beyond lineys skills, so if you are inferring that civilians and BAES are responsible for these accidents you are treading on very thin ice.
Q3. MRA4 is not basically the same structure as it is virtually all brand new build , not added bits to an old airframe, and contrary to the rumour you are starting they design out any potential problems found in earlier marks, its called continual improvement.
Your comment: As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.
This is an RAF comment that the 'linneys' used quite a lot. Also as an ex liney and an ex BAES employee you do not appear to know what you are talking about. Its these comments that do no help to the people who have lost family/friends and is pure speculation and conjecture.
Q1: How can hiding the pipes be an error in design or BAES being deficient, the pipes would have been checked and leak checked before all the flooring was put down. The reason it was done was to make the trial/temporary AAR capability permament and to prevent experienced lineys missing something and removed one more arduous task from the flight servicings.
Q2. Correct, but the guys doing the work are ex raf with experience on type additonally the work carried out by these guys is way beyond lineys skills, so if you are inferring that civilians and BAES are responsible for these accidents you are treading on very thin ice.
Q3. MRA4 is not basically the same structure as it is virtually all brand new build , not added bits to an old airframe, and contrary to the rumour you are starting they design out any potential problems found in earlier marks, its called continual improvement.
Your comment: As an ex BWoS employee the number of times I've heard "if it ain't broke don't fix it" would suggest to me the last question above is probably going to be answered "YES", as nothing changes.
This is an RAF comment that the 'linneys' used quite a lot. Also as an ex liney and an ex BAES employee you do not appear to know what you are talking about. Its these comments that do no help to the people who have lost family/friends and is pure speculation and conjecture.
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AAR - you sure????
You sure they haven't been AAR for the last couple months NimAGE, did they not start again within a week or two of the tragedy? I have heard that they had - apologies if I am mistaken though..........
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AARs
They did resume them about a week after the Nimrod was blown out of the sky.However everytime they find a problem with the fuel pipes (which appears to be every few weeks) they suspend them again.
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Keep at them nigegilb
If my sons Nimrod had the fuel tank protection he may have been here now as they were only 3 mins from Kandhar when the wing blew up followed by the rest of the aircraft. Also I have just found out via the RAF Kinlosss website that his aircraft XV 230 was the first Nimrod delivered to the RAF in 1969 !!!!!!!
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/abo...ghtheyears.cfm
37 years old and they have the cheek to say on there that "The Comet has an excellent record as both a military and civilian passenger transport, having accumulated some 1.5 million flying hours. " Yea right . so I did a bit of research and found this .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,355194,00.html
Passengers appeared to have had no fear of this stretched Comet, but what it had lost on the way to production was the confidence of airlines. Only 74 were sold worldwide: De Havilland had expected orders of up to 1,000. Just as well perhaps as, in all, 20 Comets crashed, killing nearly 500 people.
GOOD SAFETY RECORD I DON'T THINK SO
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/abo...ghtheyears.cfm
37 years old and they have the cheek to say on there that "The Comet has an excellent record as both a military and civilian passenger transport, having accumulated some 1.5 million flying hours. " Yea right . so I did a bit of research and found this .
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,355194,00.html
Passengers appeared to have had no fear of this stretched Comet, but what it had lost on the way to production was the confidence of airlines. Only 74 were sold worldwide: De Havilland had expected orders of up to 1,000. Just as well perhaps as, in all, 20 Comets crashed, killing nearly 500 people.
GOOD SAFETY RECORD I DON'T THINK SO
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To be fair Tappers dad the comets you refer to crashed because they had rectangular windows, (stress at the corners) causing the pressure shell to breech at altitude. This was engineered out after and I believe it cured all of these problems.
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not to mention that while they figured it out the Comet lost its' leading edge advantage and the American manufacturers caught up.
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De Havilland
Maybe this is worth a mention.
My father is a life-long engineer, mostly on aircraft, starting with Seafires ( not great idea, especially at Salerno ) and Hellcats ( great idea ) on Escort carriers, WW2.
He then had a very long hands-on career with Hawkers, ending as main criew chief on development Harrier 2.
I was also on that development team, having first trained in engineering & aeronautics, to join the technical photographic instrumentation side.
Dad & I both agree, after a great deal of study & some direct experience, that DeHavilland were responsible much more than any others for flimsy aircraft.
The Mosquito is remembered in a cosy glow, but how about all the people killed when it was falling apart, let alone being almost unsurvivable in event of an engine out on take-off.
I once photographed a colleague's retirement, upon which John Farley stated " he is the only man I know who's survived a Mosquito engine failure on T.O. "
Even when they built heavy great tanks like the Sea Vixen, they still had flaws enough to overstress & break airframes quite easily ( see the 'widowmakers thread on Pprune ) - and things like the DH 108 were unforgivable - though I admit a lot of the blame there lies in people deciding to continue flying the thing.
It's a sad fact, D.H. have always been fragile designs sticking their necks out - or rather the occupant's necks.
My very best wishes, and condolences, about your son, Tapper's Dad.
My father is a life-long engineer, mostly on aircraft, starting with Seafires ( not great idea, especially at Salerno ) and Hellcats ( great idea ) on Escort carriers, WW2.
He then had a very long hands-on career with Hawkers, ending as main criew chief on development Harrier 2.
I was also on that development team, having first trained in engineering & aeronautics, to join the technical photographic instrumentation side.
Dad & I both agree, after a great deal of study & some direct experience, that DeHavilland were responsible much more than any others for flimsy aircraft.
The Mosquito is remembered in a cosy glow, but how about all the people killed when it was falling apart, let alone being almost unsurvivable in event of an engine out on take-off.
I once photographed a colleague's retirement, upon which John Farley stated " he is the only man I know who's survived a Mosquito engine failure on T.O. "
Even when they built heavy great tanks like the Sea Vixen, they still had flaws enough to overstress & break airframes quite easily ( see the 'widowmakers thread on Pprune ) - and things like the DH 108 were unforgivable - though I admit a lot of the blame there lies in people deciding to continue flying the thing.
It's a sad fact, D.H. have always been fragile designs sticking their necks out - or rather the occupant's necks.
My very best wishes, and condolences, about your son, Tapper's Dad.
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Honour,Code and Loyalty
My son used to quote this dialogue to me from the film "A Few Good Men (Usually when I asked him what he was doing ).It is in answer given to Tom Cruise's character Telling Jack Nicholsons character he wants the TRUTH.
"I know deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honour, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post."
I know I am a pain but I only want the truth .And yes I and millions of others are grateful that there are guys like you who are "On the Wall" .I too sleep under the Blanket of Freedom which you provide.
I am sure some people would prefer me to say thank you and be on my way but I am not going. All it takes is a "FEW GOOD MEN" to stand up and say NO enough is enough as they have with the Herc crash and the TRUTH will come out about the Nimrod XV 230 explosion.
NB.You caught me having a bad day
"I know deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honour, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post."
I know I am a pain but I only want the truth .And yes I and millions of others are grateful that there are guys like you who are "On the Wall" .I too sleep under the Blanket of Freedom which you provide.
I am sure some people would prefer me to say thank you and be on my way but I am not going. All it takes is a "FEW GOOD MEN" to stand up and say NO enough is enough as they have with the Herc crash and the TRUTH will come out about the Nimrod XV 230 explosion.
NB.You caught me having a bad day
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TD,
The last thing you EVER have to do on here is apologise for having a bad day
If you keep asking you will eventually find out I just pray it does not take you as long as some of the other good folk who frequent PPrune are taking to right injustices.
The last thing you EVER have to do on here is apologise for having a bad day
If you keep asking you will eventually find out I just pray it does not take you as long as some of the other good folk who frequent PPrune are taking to right injustices.
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Can you really compare a mosquito and a comet/nimrod? Its like comparing a Ford Anglia and Ford Focus. The Nimrod is a good platform. I have no problem flying in one. It certainly isnt flimsy.
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I am not sure what your point is nige?
Tappers dad everyday must be a bad day after what has happened, you really don't need to apologise, I am sorry to say this but I don't ever think they will find out what happened to XV230.
Without the evidence it is going to be extremely difficult and without any firm evidence I believe they will steer clear of contraversy and rule out any firm link to AAR or related fuel problems that we have seen since.
Sincerely hope that I am wrong and that they have found something but doubt it v much, I think the mood on the Rod fleet is at an all time low with A/c unserviceabilities, op tempo and general disquiet being common place.
People are ill at ease moaning in public but not too deep down people are peed off and dissatisfied.
This can't continue or long term The RAF and the kipper fleet will suffer to the point of breakdown.
Tappers dad everyday must be a bad day after what has happened, you really don't need to apologise, I am sorry to say this but I don't ever think they will find out what happened to XV230.
Without the evidence it is going to be extremely difficult and without any firm evidence I believe they will steer clear of contraversy and rule out any firm link to AAR or related fuel problems that we have seen since.
Sincerely hope that I am wrong and that they have found something but doubt it v much, I think the mood on the Rod fleet is at an all time low with A/c unserviceabilities, op tempo and general disquiet being common place.
People are ill at ease moaning in public but not too deep down people are peed off and dissatisfied.
This can't continue or long term The RAF and the kipper fleet will suffer to the point of breakdown.
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... sorry to go on a tangent, but found this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4
Not sure if it's been posted before. Obviously Tapper's Dad knows about it.
Stunning.
Myspace at last has a just purpose!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfUxKMaN4C4
Not sure if it's been posted before. Obviously Tapper's Dad knows about it.
Stunning.
Myspace at last has a just purpose!