V-Force dispersal query

[Blacksheep]

The normal overseas base for 90Sqn during such operations or exercise Sunspot was RAAF Butterworth.

"Exercise Sunspot" was Luqa; Butterworth and Tengah alternated every other year for what I seem to recall was "Exercise Moonflower" - with a flight detachment to Darwin for the luckier fellows.

Dispersals I remember being used by Waddington Wing when I was there included Macrihanish, Valley, Honington, Manston, Filton, Lyneham, Woodford and Brawdy.

...when the concept was actually put into practise (ie - Cuba) the Force was not dispersed when it should have been.

I don't understand the comment. Bomber Command regularly came to readiness on their home bases through Exercise "Mick" and could theoretically disappear to dispersal from that status within 15 minutes. Sometimes Bomber Command would test us when the station was declared ready, by saying "Off you go then!" just to see if we were bullsh*tting.

We could - and regularly did - perform Exercise "Micky Finn" and disperse the entire 'V' Force from a cold start within 24 hours. (That includes all aircraft and aircrew plus the ground crews to maintain them. We went in Hastings, Beverleys and even 42 seater busses.) We may have been a scruffy ill-disciplined crowd of misfits and reprobates, but we knew our jobs inside out and were very proud of our technical ability.

[Pontius Navigator]

[QUOTE=Blacksheep;4867128Bomber Command regularly came to readiness on their home bases through Exercise "Mick" [/quote] which was a fully fueled states and Alert Condition 3. Apart from the need to download live wepaons before any flight it would have been necessary to defuel the aircraft to transit states.

[quote] theoretically disappear to dispersal from that status within 15 minutes./quote] this would only have been from Alert Conditon 2.

Sometimes Bomber Command would test us when the station was declared ready, by saying "Off you go then!" just to see if we were bullsh*tting.

if you mean to dispersal then that was the annual Micky Finn. The other, during a Mick, was a start engines to Readiness 02 and the whole force would do a waddle around the airfield.

We could - and regularly did - perform Exercise "Micky Finn" and disperse the entire 'V' Force from a cold start within 24 hours. (That includes all aircraft and aircrew plus the ground crews to maintain them. We went in Hastings, Beverleys and even 42 seater busses.) We may have been a scruffy ill-disciplined crowd of misfits and reprobates, but we knew our jobs inside out and were very proud of our technical ability.

This was another reason why the Alert Condition 2 state was expected to be of short duration. The ground crews could not be in two places at once and the necessary AT could not be held back waiting for them!

[ACW418]

In the mid 1960's the dispersal was called Exercise Kinsman according to my log book. The system was that (with the exception of the QRA aircraft and those on major maintenance) all aircraft were dispersed as they were generated. The senior crews took the first made ready and so on. The junior crews got the raw deal hanging around all day and then having to fly to some unknown airfield. We were sent to Lyneham on one occasion and on 5 Jan 65 dispersed to Llanbedr. The rub here was that you had to be on the ground ast Llanbedr by 1700 because they let the sheep back onto the airfield then. As we were one of the last to be sent off it was a shortish trip before landing at Llanbedr just before the deadline. In the dark I recall the radar vectoring and approach quite scary as the runway lights were uni-directional and we were vectored to fly 090 towards Snowdon for what seemed like a very long time with no runway lights in sight on a very dark evening.
ACW

[Blacksheep]

The point I was making is that it wasn't necessary to disperse the V Force during the Cuban crisis. It would take less than a morning shift to bring the whole lot up to Alert Condition 2 as our regular wargames proved and despite the press drama, the affair never actually got that close. On either a Mick or Micky Finn we would prep all the Line aircraft, do "Combats" and then disarm again. In one "Mick" we certainly declared all aircraft (except the hangar queen that had lost a wingtip in a towing accident) ready before lunch and half an hour later we had to send the whole lot off. Where they went we ground crew never knew; up to Saxa Vord and back down the Atlantic side I suppose. In any case they didn't get back until after dark and it made a bloody long day - even worse than a Micky Finn.

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW, I think you are confused. The purpose of Kinsman was two-fold. It was to give the dispersal airfield experience in operating its V-bombers and to give the crews practise in using their dispersals.

In practice it was not necessarily a crew's planned war dispersal to which the crew went but available crews who would go. A typical Kinsman was for 2 or 4 crews to fly a routine training sortie but landing at the dispersal. The following day they would depart on a further routine sortie.

Sometimes it was expanded. Ballykelly was a 4 aircraft dispersal and on one occaision we put 4 aircraft in and operated for 4 days having flown in on Monday and eventually departed Friday athough we laned back at Cottesmore after each sortie and a different crew went to Ballykelly.

At Pershore we once did a 2-day exercise. We landed from a hi-lo-hi 5hr 45min practically on fumes and the following day, having cut short, we did a 5hr 25 min HLH.

Full dispersal was only done on Micky Finn. Crews might disperse on Monday with the Blue Steel Vulcans perhaps arriving Tuesday and the lame-duck Victor BS as late as Wednesday. When the force was ready we would be scrambled on Wednesday or Thursday.

One year it was decided for a complete no-notice mass scramble. When I say no-notice I meant even ATC was in the dark. The order was duly given and some 150 aircraft launched throughout the UK within 5 minutes of so. It had been decided that fltplans would be filed at main base and only after the sc then could we start filing flight plans. Given the number sramble could we start filing.

As we could not receive 20 plus Vulcans at the same time it was planned that some sorties would be less than 2 hrs duration - Ballykelly, into the Scottish Glens, a 2E at Newcastle and recovery. Comcen was still filing fltplans an hour or more after the first aircraft had landed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Blacksheep

On either a Mick or Micky Finn we would prep all the Line aircraft, do "Combats" and then disarm again. In one "Mick" we certainly declared all aircraft (except the hangar queen that had lost a wingtip in a towing accident) ready before lunch and half an hour later we had to send the whole lot off.

Waddo could generally complete its main force generation, including the 4 at Finningley, comfortably under 5 hours. Given an 0400 start they would be ready for the go before 1000. Alcon 1 was often called 0930-1000. I recall one disperse when we 'lost' and aircraft.

It had not been declared combat available and was supposedly waiting for weapons load. Once all the noise had died down we were waiting on its state declaration but only got silence.

I went out and found it had gone to Manston (Frank Bonfield) and no one had a record of its ready times. The crew had just completed the checks and weapon load commenced when the disperal order was given. The Nav Rad was in the bombbay doing the acceptance checks when the engines spooled up. He sh^t and shot out of the bombbay, into the aircraft, doors closed and off they went.

[Tim McLelland]

despite the press drama, the affair never actually got that close

Interesting point - all rather depends on which reports of the saga are closer to the truth I guess. I've seen some accounts which claim that the affair really did get that close and that it was the PM's decision not to disperse, but as to what the actual truth of the matter was...

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by Tim McLelland

that it was the PM's decision not to disperse, but as to what the actual truth of the matter was...

This is sbsolutely true. I think Peter Hennessy covers this in The Secret State. Certainly he has done more work on Cuba recently.

[ozleckie]

I was an Armament Electrician at Cottesmore between 1961 and 1964 and the dispersals at that time were Boscombe Down for 10 Sqn and St Mawgan for 15 Sqn and I went to both many times.

During the Cuban Crisis we were loading live weapons on any airframe that had wings and engines and prior to then we had only ever loaded live weapons to the QRA aircraft

[VictorPilot]

A long Memory Stretch

Interesting to see this thread back on line. I was on Victors from 1960 to 1967 and lived through all the fun days!! Reading through the thread, there are some inaccuracies, and some new bits worth adding.

Early on it states that the sqn numbers peaked in Jan 63. It then lists the squadrons but ignores No 139(Jamaica) Sqn - the first Victor 2 free fall squadron.

Bruntingthorpe was indeed a Victor 2 dispersal, with a nice pub in the village; I remember happy hours there! The dispersal flights, especially in the middle of the night to a wide, poorly lit and apparently short runway, always got the adrenaline flowing! It is still a "dispersal" as the home of the Cold War jets collection. A Victor K2 is kept in running condition and does public "fast runs" on open days. The next is on 3 May and all are welcome!

The Victors certainly did "live" QRA with Blue Steel. To meet take-off requirements, the inertial nav system had to be kept at its operating temperature 24/7. I also remember the drama of HTP temperature monitoring - and supporting drills. My crew did an emergency off-load at about 1am one night! Plastic suits, water hoses, floodlights and all! Happy memories!!

The Victor Force was fully involved with dispersal exercises with both "Dry" and "Wet" Blue Steel inert missiles. Flying with a "Wet" missile was not uncommon, but led to a couple of immediate landings at the nearest suitable airfields when the HTP temperature was uncertain.

I think there may be some confusion over the Blue Steel release plans. The method to be employed was developed with the type of release to be used. Initially everything was planned for a high level release at maximum BS powered range, but there was a fall back of an unpowered free fall release. Then, if I remember correctly, we went low level, and the release range was much shorter following a mini-pop-up attack. From low level, if BS had to be released unpowered, the plan was to accelerate to about 400 Knts (?)and do a major full-power pop-up to a pre-determined release height, about 12000 Ft, input a quick NBS correction, drop and run!! I remember practicing one of these releases at Goose Bay in the winter and the full power climb was nearly vertical!

The auto-land situation was described earlier. It is worth noting that the Victor 2 was also equipped for auto-land. The ILS aerial was moved from the port wing tip to a small bullet in front of the Bomb Aimers position to put the aircraft on the centreline, it is still there today on the K2. It had an enhanced radar altimeter fitted, but the operation of the whole system depended on twin ILS leader cables being installed at the airfields. Wittering was not equipped because of the A1, and the "blind landing" requirement went away as noted earlier. That said, as I recall, the system was given "switch on" clearance only, following Boscombe Trials, to 250 Ft, and sometimes when we were bored, we did Auto-ILS approaches.

Back to memory stretching!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Originally Posted by VictorPilot

I think there may be some confusion over the Blue Steel release plans. The method to be employed was developed with the type of release to be used. Initially everything was planned for a high level release at maximum BS powered range, but there was a fall back of an unpowered free fall release. Then, if I remember correctly, we went low level, and the release range was much shorter following a mini-pop-up attack. From low level, if BS had to be released unpowered, the plan was to accelerate to about 400 Knts (?)and do a major full-power pop-up to a pre-determined release height, about 12000 Ft, input a quick NBS correction, drop and run!! I remember practicing one of these releases at Goose Bay in the winter and the full power climb was nearly vertical!

The BS low level reversion was the same as the free-fall 2E which was a 500ft entry at 350kts and a climb to level at 11000ft. It was supposed to be 4 miles of so (40 seconds) to release and about 6 miles from the target.

This was an inelegant solution with crews in training poping up earlier and earlier to get better scores. It led to the development of the 2H where release was made in the climb with the popup occurring between 9 miles - Vulcan 301 and 10.5 miles Vulcan 101. I am not sure that the Victor 2 was still in service when the 2H was developed. I have a paper in the office that I can check on Monday.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bomber Command Operational Research Branch on Memo 281 dated Nov 1963, stated that the Yellow Sun and Blue Steel could be released in level flight after a popup manoeuvre at 300kts EAS. The Yellow Sun could also be released at flight path angles of 10 to 20 degrees above the horizontal. In level flight the minimum release altitude was 11,000 ft. For the Yellow Sun it was 9,500 ft in a 10 degree climb and 8,400 ft in a 20 degree climb.



The level release at 11,000 ft was called a 2E and the release in the climb was called a 2H. The time of bomb fall for the Blue Steel was considerably less but the forward throw was considerably more than the YS2. The release in the climb case was not considered as they did not think they would get clearance.

[Terenceskipp]

V-Bomber dispersal @ Bruntingthorpe

This thread appears longstanding, and not wishing to add to "confusion" but I can recall driving past the easterly end of Bruntingthorpe's runway in 1965 (ish) and seeing a Vulcan & a Victor, I think each with a Blue Steel underslung, engines idling and surrounded by what appeared to be armed RAF police..................but the memory is a little vague on the details. However these aircraft were definitely there around that time.
I used to cycle to Brunt in the late 50's early 60's planespotting B47's & B66's so although the USAF had left, used to periodically drive past.
Any one confirm this????????????????

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Spotters Forum?

Just a thought.

[an old Bomber SATCO]

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC Bruntingthorpe was a USAF base. I checked Google and found my memory was not failing:

"The base was used for testing Meteors in 1945 before being placed on Care and Maintenance from 1945 until January 1957 when it was transferred to USAF Command as a satellite to USAF at Alconbury. The station closed when the USAF left in 1962."

In the late 50s Alconbury was a B66 base. If you look at Brunters you will see 30 Y dispersals that could have accomodated many of the Alconbury bombers.

In the early 60s it was not unknown for aircraft en route Bitteswell from Cottesmore to mistake Bruntingthorpe as its runway was much better. I am not aware on and RAF use of Bruntingthorpe as a V-bomber dispersal.

[VIProds]

V-Force dispersal

In the early 60's I was stationed at Honnington & worked in the Electronics Block. Having done many stints of QRA & Special Safety Team (if a Nuclear weapon crashed, we had to go in & see if there was any spillage of Plutonium & cordon off down wind of the incident & identify the Plutonium with Geiger Counters).

One early morning we had a "Mickey Finn" & all the serviceable Victor B1's were disperssed apart from two which were sat on the end of Honningtons runway.

A fault developed with one of the aircraft's I.F.F. The Squadron Guys couldn't locate the fault which made the aircraft non "Combat Ready". I got a 'phone call in the Electronics Block to say that they were sending a Staff car to take me to the Victor & explained the symtoms of the fault.

When I arrived at the aircraft, the Crew Cheif said that if the balloon goes up when I was inside, I would have to go with them !! PN informs me that the ASC would have meant it

When I got inside, the cockpit, I looked back to see he was closing the door & taking the ladders away. I crawled under the desk where the Nav Plotter was sitting & squeezed between the rear bulkhead & the back of the "Black Boxes". I identified the I.F.F. Control Unit & unscrewed the Pye connector plug only to find that two pins had been pushed back (a common fault). I reseated the pins & very gently mated the plug & screwed it back up. The A.E.O. confirmed that it was working correctly, so I got out of there PDQ.

I have always thought that they had "yellow Sun" loaded up, but PN says if it was a "Mickey Finn", it could have been inert or concevably "warshot" had been uploaded, the aircraft declared & the weapons downloaded.

[Terenceskipp]

Brunt V dispersal

Yes the 19th TRS was based at Bruntingthorpe, part of the wing from Alconbury, with another of the TRS deployed to Chelveston. however after the USAF departed and the airfield reverted to the RAF on a "care & maintenance" it was used for dispersal of V bombers, and it was in this latter period that I recall the Victor and Vulcan deployed.

[Fareastdriver]

All this takes me back to the early sixties when I was a humble pilot on 90 Valiant tanker squadron at Honington.

At about four in the morning there would be this God-awful noise from the mess tannoys as they went on bleating about an Exercise Mick or Micky Finn. This would be followed by the sound of doors slamming and feet running as all my compatriots on 55 and 57 Victor squadrons rushed around and went off to work.

After half and hour or so the noise would die down and I could turn over and get back to sleep.

[dkh51250]

If memory serves me well, we were never told that it was an "exercise" only that an alert had been declared.

All those happy hours on a pan with a pick helve for company.

[forget]

The clue was in the Tannoy announcement -

'Attention Attention Attention. This is the (station name) controller. Exercise Mickey Finn, I repeat Exercise Mickey Finn'.

Can you see it yet.