V-Force dispersal query
Actually, I reckon Andy's book was far better researched - and benefitted from his experience interviewing many senior RAF officers of the period.
A revised edition, including de-classified material not available when he wrote it, would be very welcome.
A revised edition, including de-classified material not available when he wrote it, would be very welcome.
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You think? I wasn't particularly impressed with it even when it was first published - that was why I wrote my own book subsequently. I don't think there'd be much point in updating it as the best you could hope for would be the same book but with information drawn from the much-mentioned HMSO book.
I fear that the only way anyone could produce anything which really breaks new ground on the V-Force as a whole, would be if they were prepared to spend a very long time wading through all the files at the PRO. It would take an awful lot of time and a lot of expense unless you happened to live near Kew, and given the pitiful amount of money that aerospace publishers pay these days (you'd get a much, much better proportional pay deal at McDonalds), I can't see it happening!
I fear that the only way anyone could produce anything which really breaks new ground on the V-Force as a whole, would be if they were prepared to spend a very long time wading through all the files at the PRO. It would take an awful lot of time and a lot of expense unless you happened to live near Kew, and given the pitiful amount of money that aerospace publishers pay these days (you'd get a much, much better proportional pay deal at McDonalds), I can't see it happening!
For a (rather poor) map of the V-bomber bases, Thor bases and V-bomber dispersal bases, see http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...FE8488434D.pdf page 234 (or 8 of 40 in adobe).
Last edited by BEagle; 20th Feb 2007 at 08:40.
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Bedford Circa 1971
Yellow Sun is right about the 28 day dispersal at Bedford. It was a 617 do and 4 of us were sent to Kinloss for around 5 days whilst the other 4 went to Bedford for 28. Much fun was had watching the BOAC (?) guys doing circuits in their (then new) 747s and giving scores for their landings using a large board a la ice skating.
The most embarassing part though was back at the ranch, at Scampton. In those days us chaps held the purse strings, and not many wives had joint accounts at the bank with their husbands. Therefore, as they were away for nearly a month, there was no way these poor lasses could get at any money. Of course, in those days we weren't paid very much but those of us lucky enough not to be at Bedford lent them money, just so they could feed the kids! Ah! Those were the days!
Cheese Bobcat
The most embarassing part though was back at the ranch, at Scampton. In those days us chaps held the purse strings, and not many wives had joint accounts at the bank with their husbands. Therefore, as they were away for nearly a month, there was no way these poor lasses could get at any money. Of course, in those days we weren't paid very much but those of us lucky enough not to be at Bedford lent them money, just so they could feed the kids! Ah! Those were the days!
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Why is the Dispersal Era Confusing?
1. 1955: Strategic Force is to be Mks.2 Vs with ASMs, ahead of Mks.1 with Yellow Sun, to be replaced c.1965 by Blue Streak IRBM. Dispersal as core, 27 sites, as a normal pattern of operation, in 4 a/c Flights: purpose is to decoy and survive Bison on Main Bases.
2. 1958: we start digging ORPs. We gain access to US atomic Art and Article. Thor IRBM on way to RAF. US learns how to detect ICBM launch, so BMEWS is funded to be up c.1962. (1959: add Fylingdales - part-up 17/9/63). No more threat of bolt from the blue. US Bombs reduce our buy of Blue Danube/Red Beard/Yellow Sun(now, Mk.1); they need indispersible GI custodials. Treasury asks why pour for a few home-builds? Digging slows.
3. 1959/60: IRBM accuracy grows. Blue Streak is vulnerable, so must be silo-sited: even more delay/cost: deleted 13/4/60. RAF mans surface-Thor from 4/6/60 till USSR IRBMs are up. Force is intended to be 72 Vulcan 2, each 2xSkybolt, ahead of Vulcan 1/Victor 1/2 (ex-B.Steel) with YS2. 207 Sqdn Valiant stands up 1 QRA aircraft (Marham was Saceur's not MBF's, until mid-65). Brass suggests extending the idea to MBF. Treasury suggest we are confused between QRA and dispersal, and that in tension ("we will bury you") to Move Out is provocative (=rail mobilisation,1914). Brass say "use it or lose it".
4. 1961: UK decides that survivability lends credibility to a posture of "no first use". So: a QRA element at Main Base (1 Jan.'62, 1 a/c p.Sqdn.at 15 mins.); 75% U/E generation within 24hr.; a dispersal element. US weapons gone from MBF 17/3/62, so whole Force can disperse. Digging resumes.
5. 21/12/62: delete Skybolt, insert Polaris/SSBN. ex-UK deep nuclear strike deleted with TSR.2, 6/4/65. Many sites de-activated in 1966 as we run down MBF.
That's why.
2. 1958: we start digging ORPs. We gain access to US atomic Art and Article. Thor IRBM on way to RAF. US learns how to detect ICBM launch, so BMEWS is funded to be up c.1962. (1959: add Fylingdales - part-up 17/9/63). No more threat of bolt from the blue. US Bombs reduce our buy of Blue Danube/Red Beard/Yellow Sun(now, Mk.1); they need indispersible GI custodials. Treasury asks why pour for a few home-builds? Digging slows.
3. 1959/60: IRBM accuracy grows. Blue Streak is vulnerable, so must be silo-sited: even more delay/cost: deleted 13/4/60. RAF mans surface-Thor from 4/6/60 till USSR IRBMs are up. Force is intended to be 72 Vulcan 2, each 2xSkybolt, ahead of Vulcan 1/Victor 1/2 (ex-B.Steel) with YS2. 207 Sqdn Valiant stands up 1 QRA aircraft (Marham was Saceur's not MBF's, until mid-65). Brass suggests extending the idea to MBF. Treasury suggest we are confused between QRA and dispersal, and that in tension ("we will bury you") to Move Out is provocative (=rail mobilisation,1914). Brass say "use it or lose it".
4. 1961: UK decides that survivability lends credibility to a posture of "no first use". So: a QRA element at Main Base (1 Jan.'62, 1 a/c p.Sqdn.at 15 mins.); 75% U/E generation within 24hr.; a dispersal element. US weapons gone from MBF 17/3/62, so whole Force can disperse. Digging resumes.
5. 21/12/62: delete Skybolt, insert Polaris/SSBN. ex-UK deep nuclear strike deleted with TSR.2, 6/4/65. Many sites de-activated in 1966 as we run down MBF.
That's why.
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A small but nevertheless important error of fact.
During the Cold War, in the days of the 'V' Force, Lossiemouth and Brawdy were Royal Naval Air Stations (HMS FULMAR and GOLDCREST respectively), and not under light blue domination. By the time both reverted to the RAF, the nuclear deterrent had passed to the RN.
I recall that the control towers at both establishments were possessed of the standard 'black box' with the characteristic 30 sec bleep. On a 'Mickey Finn' or similar, it would burst into life, assailing those within earshot with the cut glass vowel Oxbridge tones of 'The Bomber Controller'. It was reassuring to us lesser mortals, to know that execution of mutually assured distruction would be accompanied by a narrative from one who occupied a high office, deep underground, safe from radiation exposure, and who spoke 'proper like'.
Definitely no 'scouse gits' at High Wycombe in those days!
During the Cold War, in the days of the 'V' Force, Lossiemouth and Brawdy were Royal Naval Air Stations (HMS FULMAR and GOLDCREST respectively), and not under light blue domination. By the time both reverted to the RAF, the nuclear deterrent had passed to the RN.
I recall that the control towers at both establishments were possessed of the standard 'black box' with the characteristic 30 sec bleep. On a 'Mickey Finn' or similar, it would burst into life, assailing those within earshot with the cut glass vowel Oxbridge tones of 'The Bomber Controller'. It was reassuring to us lesser mortals, to know that execution of mutually assured distruction would be accompanied by a narrative from one who occupied a high office, deep underground, safe from radiation exposure, and who spoke 'proper like'.
Definitely no 'scouse gits' at High Wycombe in those days!
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We didn't disperse only on Micky Finns, we used to exercise individual dispersals to keep the equipment - which was Bomber Command property - operational. I remember going to Brawdy/HMS Goldcrest for a week on such an exercise. It was an FAA training station so there was lots of Jolly Jack Tar/Popeye the Sailorman stuff designed to confuse us landsmen.
Our aircraft were parked on the ORP at one end of the Flight Deck and our barrack room was a messdeck. The OOW would come round in the evening to ensure that all deadlights and watertight doors were secured. One was supposed to be either in best blue and standing by your bed or else in bed, fast asleep. Being Bomber Command we didn't do either and sat around the table in our shreddies as usual, playing three card brag and singing "Do your balls hang low..." or some other jolly sea shanty.
If you walked across the grass between the blocks and the NAAFI - SOP at Waddington - some idiot would scream "Man Overboard!" and throw a lifebelt at you. The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense. One lunchtime the off duty shift decided to go out for a pint and ploughman's instead of eating at the galley. There was no jolly boat and in any case we needed a chit from the bosun or whoever. We went back up the road and returned in formation, walking backwards - In!-Out!-In!-Out! - as we rowed our jolly boat out of the gate.
I reckon the Skipper of HMS Goldcrest was glad to see the back of us...
A couple of questions for ex-matelots. Do you also have a miserable boat? what happened to the Master at Arms's legs? why doesn't the gunner's mate have a gun? We tried asking but nobody would tell us.
Our aircraft were parked on the ORP at one end of the Flight Deck and our barrack room was a messdeck. The OOW would come round in the evening to ensure that all deadlights and watertight doors were secured. One was supposed to be either in best blue and standing by your bed or else in bed, fast asleep. Being Bomber Command we didn't do either and sat around the table in our shreddies as usual, playing three card brag and singing "Do your balls hang low..." or some other jolly sea shanty.
If you walked across the grass between the blocks and the NAAFI - SOP at Waddington - some idiot would scream "Man Overboard!" and throw a lifebelt at you. The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense. One lunchtime the off duty shift decided to go out for a pint and ploughman's instead of eating at the galley. There was no jolly boat and in any case we needed a chit from the bosun or whoever. We went back up the road and returned in formation, walking backwards - In!-Out!-In!-Out! - as we rowed our jolly boat out of the gate.
I reckon the Skipper of HMS Goldcrest was glad to see the back of us...
A couple of questions for ex-matelots. Do you also have a miserable boat? what happened to the Master at Arms's legs? why doesn't the gunner's mate have a gun? We tried asking but nobody would tell us.
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while the light blue 'hossifers' got the cushy number.
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Drinking pink gin in the Wardroom might be thought of as a cushy number
There were three back seaters 'pulling' in our jolly boat that day
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Blacksheep
"The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense."
Landlubber! Surely every one knows that your 'Jolly Boat' was actually a 'liberty boat' and that if you wern't there at the times that it went then you didn't get liberty (shore leave). Oh yes, even land based 'ships' gave shore leave.
Back on track. Yeovilton's V bomber dispersal was pretty well organised, had 2 dispersals on the south side of runway 27 where the ski jump now sits and had its own accomodation blocks. Only ever remember it being used once sometime in 1968 I seem to remember for a couple of Vulcans. Remember a 'tilly' full of blighters turning up at the galley for scran. They would have been better off taking the liberty boat down to the 'Dolphs' or 'Lamb & Lark' for a ploughmans and scrumps.
Sharmine
"The landrover was a "Jolly Boat" or some such nonsense."
Landlubber! Surely every one knows that your 'Jolly Boat' was actually a 'liberty boat' and that if you wern't there at the times that it went then you didn't get liberty (shore leave). Oh yes, even land based 'ships' gave shore leave.
Back on track. Yeovilton's V bomber dispersal was pretty well organised, had 2 dispersals on the south side of runway 27 where the ski jump now sits and had its own accomodation blocks. Only ever remember it being used once sometime in 1968 I seem to remember for a couple of Vulcans. Remember a 'tilly' full of blighters turning up at the galley for scran. They would have been better off taking the liberty boat down to the 'Dolphs' or 'Lamb & Lark' for a ploughmans and scrumps.
Sharmine
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AH! A liberty boat. No wonder we had a problem! 
They had to get in our boat. It was the only one leaving at the time... 
What I couldn't understand is why we had to take a jolly liberty boat at all. The port side of HMS Goldcrest was firmly secured to the dock. When we returned from lunch we simply walked aboard up the gangplank. We'd have saluted the quarterdeck too - if we only knew where it was.
This is the bomber contwoaw-laar. Awert cwews to weadiness zewo two!...Dive, dive dive.
What, in public! Oviously not career officers schooled in the ways of Lord Trenchard's General List Commissioned Crab. South Cerney has a lot to answer for!
What I couldn't understand is why we had to take a jolly liberty boat at all. The port side of HMS Goldcrest was firmly secured to the dock. When we returned from lunch we simply walked aboard up the gangplank. We'd have saluted the quarterdeck too - if we only knew where it was.
This is the bomber contwoaw-laar. Awert cwews to weadiness zewo two!...Dive, dive dive.
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I've posted this before - but with mention of Naval practices on shore bases, man overboard etc, I can't resist.
A 1969 detachment Vulcan detachment to RAAF Darwin -
Friday night was dance night at a Royal Australian Navy Sigs base, about twenty miles ‘down the track’. Lots of Aussie Wrens. Name of RAN Coonawarra I think. Time came to leave and we were heading for the Main Gate to pick up a taxi. Strolling past the swimming pool (did he fall or was he pushed) I ended up in the water. Not much of an issue, warm water, cheap watch, and dressed in Darwin Rig of shirt, shorts and long socks. I hauled myself out and we continued towards the gate.
The floodlit Guard Room, or Naval Bridge I suppose, was ahead of us, three stories high, and narrow. As I took a short cut across the grass a naval voice yelled from the top story - ‘Man overboard’. The navy do this on shore establishments when people walk on the grass - don’t ask. Terrific I thought, he can’t possibly know I’m dripping wet - this is a gift!
I climbed up the outside stairs and into the top floor where the Duty Officer, the shouter, stood on the far side of a very highly polished floor. I walked slowly across the floor the better to cover it with the dripping water that clearly caused him some pain, looked him in the eye and said - ‘Bloody magic. How’d you do that?’
One RAN Duty Officer in serious stitches!
A 1969 detachment Vulcan detachment to RAAF Darwin -
Friday night was dance night at a Royal Australian Navy Sigs base, about twenty miles ‘down the track’. Lots of Aussie Wrens. Name of RAN Coonawarra I think. Time came to leave and we were heading for the Main Gate to pick up a taxi. Strolling past the swimming pool (did he fall or was he pushed) I ended up in the water. Not much of an issue, warm water, cheap watch, and dressed in Darwin Rig of shirt, shorts and long socks. I hauled myself out and we continued towards the gate.
The floodlit Guard Room, or Naval Bridge I suppose, was ahead of us, three stories high, and narrow. As I took a short cut across the grass a naval voice yelled from the top story - ‘Man overboard’. The navy do this on shore establishments when people walk on the grass - don’t ask. Terrific I thought, he can’t possibly know I’m dripping wet - this is a gift!
I climbed up the outside stairs and into the top floor where the Duty Officer, the shouter, stood on the far side of a very highly polished floor. I walked slowly across the floor the better to cover it with the dripping water that clearly caused him some pain, looked him in the eye and said - ‘Bloody magic. How’d you do that?’
One RAN Duty Officer in serious stitches!
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If memory serves me correctly, Brawdy's V Bomber dispersal was on the western side of the threshold of runway 21; and Lossie's was on the western side of the threshold of runway 23.
Both were relatively self contained. Lossie's (and I think Brawdy's) had the standard deep water filled pits, into which the Blue Steel missile could be jetisioned in the event of propellant problems.
As a master diversion airfield, the Lossie dispersal was also used occasionally for QRA. During the 60s, I recall seeing Lightnings, F104s, F105s and even the odd F4 gracing the Morayshire countryside.
Both were relatively self contained. Lossie's (and I think Brawdy's) had the standard deep water filled pits, into which the Blue Steel missile could be jetisioned in the event of propellant problems.
As a master diversion airfield, the Lossie dispersal was also used occasionally for QRA. During the 60s, I recall seeing Lightnings, F104s, F105s and even the odd F4 gracing the Morayshire countryside.
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Life on an MBD Dispersal Airfield
I spent two years on Dispersal. Was at Machrihanish for a year, Valley the same and Leuchars as a relief prior to being posted to the best dispersal of all...Goose Bay.
As a Gen Fitt, life was boring but there was a certain excitemnet factor. At Macrihanish we all lived in our own accomodation. Sgt MT Fitter had quarters right behind our ops room,mess, kitchen, comm cen etc. We had everything. I had a bunk in the barrack block nearest our facilities sharing a 20ish room block with an evil smelling innebriate E Fitt (G).
We did little, all had our own offices at the tech site, I was 18 for Gods sake, had an inventory complete with nuclear weapon etc. Education officer for a camp commandant, excellent guy. Golf course off the airfield, 1968 the bestest summer where we were anyway, US Navy so cheap fags, booze and food. An excellent catering officer, we all shared the same food! a bit overbudget which was resolved eventually. Defueled Shackleton allowed us 100LL with a bit of brake fluid to tone it down courtesy of the MT section, they can't be held to account 40 years on!
I had the phone from Waddo Ops through to my room, knew when the Mickey Finn was coming 'cos a nice WRAF in Ops would do a few phone checks just prior to it so when the call came we were ready and accepted our pair of 'Vs', activated the dispersal for the forward party, cooks, comm ops etc prior to the whistling tit bringing the main crew. Great stuff enjoyed it all.
Valley I don't recall any excersise but the SWO did catch my colleagues down the beach with our own custom designed 100 yd telephone extension, me I was bubbling withn the sub-aqua club or blagging a flight in a Gnat, a Hunter or a Whirlwind.
Leuchars, well did a Taceval there and flew back to Waddo on the Argosy only to be stopped by 43 Sqdn (The Fighting Cocks) as we kidnapped their Cock and bodge taped them to The Fighting Cooks!!
Happy days. I expect in the event of the real thing we may have been eliminated and never received the 'Vs' we were supposed as the Ruskies may have known of our exsistence!!
I enjoyed every minute of it, got a COs rec and a fitters course out of it, life is different now.
As a Gen Fitt, life was boring but there was a certain excitemnet factor. At Macrihanish we all lived in our own accomodation. Sgt MT Fitter had quarters right behind our ops room,mess, kitchen, comm cen etc. We had everything. I had a bunk in the barrack block nearest our facilities sharing a 20ish room block with an evil smelling innebriate E Fitt (G).
We did little, all had our own offices at the tech site, I was 18 for Gods sake, had an inventory complete with nuclear weapon etc. Education officer for a camp commandant, excellent guy. Golf course off the airfield, 1968 the bestest summer where we were anyway, US Navy so cheap fags, booze and food. An excellent catering officer, we all shared the same food! a bit overbudget which was resolved eventually. Defueled Shackleton allowed us 100LL with a bit of brake fluid to tone it down courtesy of the MT section, they can't be held to account 40 years on!
I had the phone from Waddo Ops through to my room, knew when the Mickey Finn was coming 'cos a nice WRAF in Ops would do a few phone checks just prior to it so when the call came we were ready and accepted our pair of 'Vs', activated the dispersal for the forward party, cooks, comm ops etc prior to the whistling tit bringing the main crew. Great stuff enjoyed it all.
Valley I don't recall any excersise but the SWO did catch my colleagues down the beach with our own custom designed 100 yd telephone extension, me I was bubbling withn the sub-aqua club or blagging a flight in a Gnat, a Hunter or a Whirlwind.
Leuchars, well did a Taceval there and flew back to Waddo on the Argosy only to be stopped by 43 Sqdn (The Fighting Cocks) as we kidnapped their Cock and bodge taped them to The Fighting Cooks!!
Happy days. I expect in the event of the real thing we may have been eliminated and never received the 'Vs' we were supposed as the Ruskies may have known of our exsistence!!
I enjoyed every minute of it, got a COs rec and a fitters course out of it, life is different now.
In 1959 or '60 I was a J/T Eng Fitt on ASF at Cottesmore servicng Victor B1's of 10 and 15 Sqns. I was sent with a Cpl to St Mawgan to replace an Alternator on one of the Victors on exercise from one of the squadrons, I think there were three. We flew down in a Varsity, only us two on board and it was impressive flying down the Bristol Channel and the coast. We worked until quite late and the Chiefy told us to take the next day off as the a/c would still be there. Getting up late we caught the bus to Newquay making full use of the pubs. Arriving back on Camp after closing time the Victors had gone, did we feel stranded. After a day or so the Cottesmore Anson was sent to pick us up, luckily the Chiefy backed us up so we didn't get into trouble.
I don't know what Mawgan was designated for the V-Force.
I don't know what Mawgan was designated for the V-Force.
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The Cottesmore Anson! I was at Cottesmore 59 to 61. I thought that the Anson was for the "sole use" of Groupie Johnnie Johnson, ex Battle of Britain pilot. You were in luck that he allowed its use. I heard that the M.O.D wanted it back to he told them to get lost.
It's too long ago, but maybe Johnnie had been promoted and moved on. I joined Stn Flt after that and the pilot that I remember flying the Anson drove an Austin Princess. Johnnie certainly didn't fly us back from Mawgan.