Apache and Royal Marines
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: YES
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
firstly lets deal with how the british armed forces deal with casualties. A casualty can only be pronounced dead by a doctor. And I'm sure the Chinook with the IRT team and its doctor did this at the cross over between apache and chinook. the body would then be taken to the nearest Role 3 facility for identification and continuation of cascomp proceedures to make sure the correct information was relayed to the UK so the family could be infromed. The identification will include recording of injury and issuing of death certificate and cooperation with various concerned agencies like the RMP who will take evidence etc. the body will then be prepared for transport back to the UK all this is best done at the hospital which has a 'morgue facility'.
I would agree that the Chinook and support hele crews are well placed to have carried out this operation. But given the scale of the operation and the megre assets allocated I would sugest that the government is playing fast and loose with brave men and womens lives.
I would agree that the Chinook and support hele crews are well placed to have carried out this operation. But given the scale of the operation and the megre assets allocated I would sugest that the government is playing fast and loose with brave men and womens lives.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Fact is that the blokes of 42 and 45 are out there doing a great job with a lack of resources. The old adage of 'Improvise, adapt and overcome works up to a point' and the British Forces have been expected to use that ideology for far too many years. Poor equipment and lack of it is losing lives.
The good old Sea King would have been perfect for ops in Afganistan but it's old and it would be unlikely to get off of the ground at those altitudes, so where is it's damn replacement?
Lack of CAS, lack of dhobi facilities on base?
It's about time that our those in charge realised that it won't be long till were faced with a disaster like a modern Isandhlwana.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GPMG,
Totally agree - the very heroic actions were forced upon these crews that were having to scrape the barrel for this immediate combat recovery. They were forced into this corner/decision by the lack of assets availible at that moment at time - without second guessing, I wonder IF there had been a credible immediate combat recovery plan/brief availible would they have opted for their actions?
I get the feeling that the lack of SH lift will eventually hit home - and I believe this incident will further the case, and as I have said in earlier posts anything (including a Lynx) would surely have been better than an 2 AH flying back into harms way with untrained (I didn't say not briefed) individuals heath robinson secured to the aircraft conducting what looks like an emergency procedure.
I can see a possible knee jerk reaction of Sea Kings now being sent into theatre to try an appease this fallout and sudden (now public?) realisation and understanding of the implications of not enough SH lift assets. I just hope that the junglies (who also are renowned for their 'can do' attitude) are not placed in exactly the same situation in an aircraft that is limited in performance. Looking at some of the heights and temperatures out there even the Sea King with go faster stripes and fluffy dice improvements may be seen wanting.
Why is everyone else investing in SH lift (French, Germans, Australians and even the Kiwis with NH90!) and we are left doing significantly more, with less and extremes of environment? Can someone please quantify and define the peace dividends from the fall of the Warsaw Pact, because all I see is less/wrong investment in a highly volatile and kinetic world.
Which penny hasn't dropped or how much risk are our Lords and Masters willing to take? Not over dramatic, or inter Service rivalry or playing politcs - just stating fact:
SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE AN ESSENTIAL ENABLER AND COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT THAT SAVES LIVES - WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH FOR THE NUMBER AND TYPES OF OPERATIONS THAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN - THEREFORE LIVES WILL BE LOST AS A RESULT UNLESS EITHER THE OPERATIONAL TYPE/TEMPO IS REDUCED OR MORE SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE PROCURED
Forgive me, I am beginning to sound like WEBF and his hallowed Sea Harrier thread - so I will get off my soap box.
Totally agree - the very heroic actions were forced upon these crews that were having to scrape the barrel for this immediate combat recovery. They were forced into this corner/decision by the lack of assets availible at that moment at time - without second guessing, I wonder IF there had been a credible immediate combat recovery plan/brief availible would they have opted for their actions?
I get the feeling that the lack of SH lift will eventually hit home - and I believe this incident will further the case, and as I have said in earlier posts anything (including a Lynx) would surely have been better than an 2 AH flying back into harms way with untrained (I didn't say not briefed) individuals heath robinson secured to the aircraft conducting what looks like an emergency procedure.
I can see a possible knee jerk reaction of Sea Kings now being sent into theatre to try an appease this fallout and sudden (now public?) realisation and understanding of the implications of not enough SH lift assets. I just hope that the junglies (who also are renowned for their 'can do' attitude) are not placed in exactly the same situation in an aircraft that is limited in performance. Looking at some of the heights and temperatures out there even the Sea King with go faster stripes and fluffy dice improvements may be seen wanting.
Why is everyone else investing in SH lift (French, Germans, Australians and even the Kiwis with NH90!) and we are left doing significantly more, with less and extremes of environment? Can someone please quantify and define the peace dividends from the fall of the Warsaw Pact, because all I see is less/wrong investment in a highly volatile and kinetic world.
Which penny hasn't dropped or how much risk are our Lords and Masters willing to take? Not over dramatic, or inter Service rivalry or playing politcs - just stating fact:
SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE AN ESSENTIAL ENABLER AND COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT THAT SAVES LIVES - WE DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH FOR THE NUMBER AND TYPES OF OPERATIONS THAT WE ARE ENGAGED IN - THEREFORE LIVES WILL BE LOST AS A RESULT UNLESS EITHER THE OPERATIONAL TYPE/TEMPO IS REDUCED OR MORE SUPPORT HELICOPTERS ARE PROCURED
Forgive me, I am beginning to sound like WEBF and his hallowed Sea Harrier thread - so I will get off my soap box.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 20th Jan 2007 at 11:58.
GPMG,
How many casualties were suffered prior to the bombing? What was the reason bombing was tried?
Please note the wee difference between a few mud huts and Monte Cassino before making that comparison.
Bombing precision and tactics from WWII and today are quite different are they not?
Just to clear the air about misconeptions about the bombing.....it was requested by Brigadier General H.W. Dimolene, Commander of the 4th Indian Division and ordered by General Sir Harold Alexander.
The US 34th Infantry Division Commander, whose troops had made it to the top of the hill before being pushed off the hill by the German defenders told Alexander the German gunfire did not come from the Monastery but rather from the hill below the building.
The ground forces were not informed of the bombing attack prior to the bombing thus were not prepared to coordinate the ground attack after the immediately after the bombing. That allowed the German defenders to recover from the bombing before the ground attack began anew.
The US forces making the initial attack on the Monte Cassino defences lost 2100 men in 48 hours of fighting and the 34th division that followed up in the next few days took 80% casualties during their attack which got them to the top but then had to withdraw.
British troops then took up the attack and suffered casualties.....all before the bombing.
There are lessons to be learned from all that.
How many casualties were suffered prior to the bombing? What was the reason bombing was tried?
Please note the wee difference between a few mud huts and Monte Cassino before making that comparison.
Bombing precision and tactics from WWII and today are quite different are they not?
Just to clear the air about misconeptions about the bombing.....it was requested by Brigadier General H.W. Dimolene, Commander of the 4th Indian Division and ordered by General Sir Harold Alexander.
The US 34th Infantry Division Commander, whose troops had made it to the top of the hill before being pushed off the hill by the German defenders told Alexander the German gunfire did not come from the Monastery but rather from the hill below the building.
The ground forces were not informed of the bombing attack prior to the bombing thus were not prepared to coordinate the ground attack after the immediately after the bombing. That allowed the German defenders to recover from the bombing before the ground attack began anew.
The US forces making the initial attack on the Monte Cassino defences lost 2100 men in 48 hours of fighting and the 34th division that followed up in the next few days took 80% casualties during their attack which got them to the top but then had to withdraw.
British troops then took up the attack and suffered casualties.....all before the bombing.
There are lessons to be learned from all that.
Last edited by SASless; 20th Jan 2007 at 14:03.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: uk
Age: 37
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bl00dy Hell!
Absolutely amazing - I don't know 'Tom' but judging by his last comment I think he realises just how lucky he was that day.
"It had been a close thing."
I am not sure what Gary Robinsons comments mean:
"I don't think it was heroic or dangerous. I felt 100 per cent safe at all times, because of the plan and the covering fire. At the end of the day it's our job."
However, it looks as though the Royal Marines have made up their minds about their thoughts on what type of platform is best suited to Combat Recovery:
Brigadier Jerry Thomas, Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, said: "The Apaches are small and therefore less vulnerable to incoming fire, faster, and carry a formidable array of weapons."
I hope that the AH IPT are now going to dust off the pictures of that escape pod!
Seriously, this is stuff of James Bond films and Tom Clancy novels - and I beg to differ with Gary Robinson, the actions were both heroic and dangerous!
Absolutely amazing - I don't know 'Tom' but judging by his last comment I think he realises just how lucky he was that day.
"It had been a close thing."
I am not sure what Gary Robinsons comments mean:
"I don't think it was heroic or dangerous. I felt 100 per cent safe at all times, because of the plan and the covering fire. At the end of the day it's our job."
However, it looks as though the Royal Marines have made up their minds about their thoughts on what type of platform is best suited to Combat Recovery:
Brigadier Jerry Thomas, Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, said: "The Apaches are small and therefore less vulnerable to incoming fire, faster, and carry a formidable array of weapons."
I hope that the AH IPT are now going to dust off the pictures of that escape pod!
Seriously, this is stuff of James Bond films and Tom Clancy novels - and I beg to differ with Gary Robinson, the actions were both heroic and dangerous!
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 21st Jan 2007 at 14:43. Reason: Because Boss Eyed is more IT apt than me and copied the link below!
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is some video footage on the Beeb, incase anyone has missed it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm
Hats off to you brave boys.
ppf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/video_and_audio/default.stm
Hats off to you brave boys.
ppf
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
The alternative Blair New World outcome...
Date: 1 April 2008
To: Maj HugeBalls, 45 Cdo RM
Fm: Mr Spineless Wonder, Chief MoD Health and Safety Advisor, Abbey Wood
Dear Maj Hugeballs,
Subject; Use of Apache Helicopter for External Transportation of Personnel
Regarding your recent request of last year to employ an item of Government Furnished Equipment for an alternative primary purpose to that stated at the Cardinal Point Specification document; the Health and Safety Executive have reached the following conclusions;
1. Even with hearing protection, the ambient noise level in the proximity of such personnel would exceed 87DbA for periods of 2 minutes or more.
2. The danger of ocular impairment due to dust and other debris being present while operating under the rotor disc is regarded as being outside the limits of the managed risk metrics.
3. The drop hazard for personnel traveling externally only allows for any such flights to be conducted below 193mm AGL and below 12kph; conditions that can only be met when the Apache is being towed by a ground handling vehicle.
4. Due to the likelihood of live ammunition being in the proximity of personnel, regulations requires that all weapons be “made safe” and a full safety inspection is conducted by range qualified personnel prior to daily operations. This regulation should also be communicated to enemy combatants who are also liable under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
5. The static electricity discharge risk requires that any externally mounted personnel remain grounded via an earthing strip, thus limiting the radius of operations to 23.72 metres from the take off point when using an H&S approved grounding device.
In light of the preceding evidence, the Executive is unable to grant you authority to conduct any external transportation of personnel operations, and you are further reminded that the conduct of such operations renders you liable to prosecution under the terms of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
Please take the time to fill in the attached customer survey by answering the questions with a response from 1-10, where a 10 means “I am delighted at the pro-active response provided by the Health and Safety Executive, they make everything I do a genuine pleasure”, and a 1 means, “I know where you live, I will hunt you down like dogs and visit cruel and unusual punishments on you all”.
Yours sincerely,
Spineless Wonder
To: Maj HugeBalls, 45 Cdo RM
Fm: Mr Spineless Wonder, Chief MoD Health and Safety Advisor, Abbey Wood
Dear Maj Hugeballs,
Subject; Use of Apache Helicopter for External Transportation of Personnel
Regarding your recent request of last year to employ an item of Government Furnished Equipment for an alternative primary purpose to that stated at the Cardinal Point Specification document; the Health and Safety Executive have reached the following conclusions;
1. Even with hearing protection, the ambient noise level in the proximity of such personnel would exceed 87DbA for periods of 2 minutes or more.
2. The danger of ocular impairment due to dust and other debris being present while operating under the rotor disc is regarded as being outside the limits of the managed risk metrics.
3. The drop hazard for personnel traveling externally only allows for any such flights to be conducted below 193mm AGL and below 12kph; conditions that can only be met when the Apache is being towed by a ground handling vehicle.
4. Due to the likelihood of live ammunition being in the proximity of personnel, regulations requires that all weapons be “made safe” and a full safety inspection is conducted by range qualified personnel prior to daily operations. This regulation should also be communicated to enemy combatants who are also liable under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
5. The static electricity discharge risk requires that any externally mounted personnel remain grounded via an earthing strip, thus limiting the radius of operations to 23.72 metres from the take off point when using an H&S approved grounding device.
In light of the preceding evidence, the Executive is unable to grant you authority to conduct any external transportation of personnel operations, and you are further reminded that the conduct of such operations renders you liable to prosecution under the terms of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
Please take the time to fill in the attached customer survey by answering the questions with a response from 1-10, where a 10 means “I am delighted at the pro-active response provided by the Health and Safety Executive, they make everything I do a genuine pleasure”, and a 1 means, “I know where you live, I will hunt you down like dogs and visit cruel and unusual punishments on you all”.
Yours sincerely,
Spineless Wonder
Last edited by Two's in; 22nd Jan 2007 at 01:33.
We used to have a saying in our Sqn, back in the 80s; "Well hard". As is the way with these things, it was somewhat overused and trivialiesd, but...
Well hard!!! 
Mind you, my pilot would only ever run off and leave in the middle of a fire fight once!
"I thought 'they'd better be quick,' said Tom
Mind you, my pilot would only ever run off and leave in the middle of a fire fight once!
A truly amazing and utterly fearless episode. Heartiest congratulations to all involved - all of whom deserve to receive awards for gallantry in the face of the enemy.
The images of those RMs riding that AH64 bareback shows just what a real 'can do' fighting force is capable of.
Well done indeed to all involved!!
The images of those RMs riding that AH64 bareback shows just what a real 'can do' fighting force is capable of.
Well done indeed to all involved!!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Meeting any of the guys in a bar would be an honour. Stuff emptying the wallet, i'd need credit cards, bank cards, cash, and anything else I have to show the level of respect I have for them. Massive effort for all directly involved, and a privelige to be part of the same outfit.
R.I.P. L/CPL Ford.
Thoughts are with his family. Be proud of the man.
R.I.P. L/CPL Ford.
Thoughts are with his family. Be proud of the man.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Age: 84
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not a Royal Marine, preferring my service to be much more comfortable, but if ever there was an example of self-respect and mutual esteem so inextricably intertwined, then surely this is it.
Selflessness, pride, mutual respect are not adequate concepts to describe what happened. Don't we all feel a lot better knowing there are men like this around?
RIP L/Cpl Ford, you had some truly great mates.
Selflessness, pride, mutual respect are not adequate concepts to describe what happened. Don't we all feel a lot better knowing there are men like this around?
RIP L/Cpl Ford, you had some truly great mates.