Different rules for AT and FJ aircrew
Rudekid
Glad to see you don't support fraud! Next time someone like DD "outs" an individual I'll just sit back and offer nowt. Enough said, its dragging away from the real thread! Now, tell me again why I can't get an air con hotel room like the steward?!
Glad to see you don't support fraud! Next time someone like DD "outs" an individual I'll just sit back and offer nowt. Enough said, its dragging away from the real thread! Now, tell me again why I can't get an air con hotel room like the steward?!
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Cos your not entitled Wrath............
As pax, which as you are when sat in the back of Albert, Trishaws and the like the BEANCOUNTERS, i say again the BEANCOUNTERS who should not be confused with the Captain, Co, ALM, Steward, Grd Eng, or SVC have decided that you are entitled to **** all ...........so if you want bleat about anyone direct your ire at handbrake house cos those tw@ts ARE to blame!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
As pax, which as you are when sat in the back of Albert, Trishaws and the like the BEANCOUNTERS, i say again the BEANCOUNTERS who should not be confused with the Captain, Co, ALM, Steward, Grd Eng, or SVC have decided that you are entitled to **** all
...........so if you want bleat about anyone direct your ire at handbrake house cos those tw@ts ARE to blame!!all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Broken
Calm down lad! I'm more than happy to sleep where I'm told, 'twas a bit of idle banter between rudekid and myself to put a "happy" end to an earlier disagreement! Bed will do, en-suite (ie a sink) optional! Besides JPA makes claiming anysort of subsistence a right royal pain in the ar5e and I don't have a co to sort that 5hit for me!
Now what if I'm in one of the FJ "chicks" on a trail. I'm now operating crew (in 2 Gp speak) so surely I have the same rights as a steward.
No reply required, honest - I'm sure it's in this thread somewhere!
However, rather than answer that rhetorical (I'm up to "r" in my night time read!) question can you enlighten this old and bold FJ mate what the f**k "df" alcohol is? Always wondered, probably should know, but I can only think it must be good stuff. And cheap!
Calm down lad! I'm more than happy to sleep where I'm told, 'twas a bit of idle banter between rudekid and myself to put a "happy" end to an earlier disagreement! Bed will do, en-suite (ie a sink) optional! Besides JPA makes claiming anysort of subsistence a right royal pain in the ar5e and I don't have a co to sort that 5hit for me!
Now what if I'm in one of the FJ "chicks" on a trail. I'm now operating crew (in 2 Gp speak) so surely I have the same rights as a steward.
No reply required, honest - I'm sure it's in this thread somewhere!However, rather than answer that rhetorical (I'm up to "r" in my night time read!) question can you enlighten this old and bold FJ mate what the f**k "df" alcohol is? Always wondered, probably should know, but I can only think it must be good stuff. And cheap!
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I seem to remember that its not up to the AT crew to decide where they stay in Akrotiri! Stn Ops allocate accomodation in accordance with the 2 Gp ASO no matter how much lower lip pouting goes on.
On base OK! Off base bonus!
On base OK! Off base bonus!
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Only a couple of questions if I may,
Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.
Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?
Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.
Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),
HEDP
Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.
Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?
Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.
Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),
HEDP
Do you really think we have that much influence over all of these issues? As a general rule AT crews stay where they are told to stay, and this includes on base Akrotiri, I, as have many many others spent a lot of time in blocks 101, 102, 145 etc etc. On arrival at said base ops we are allocated our accomodation and now and then get put off base. I believe, and i cant substantiate this, that it is the home bases that insist there FJ crews have first shout at on base accomodation, in an effort to save money, but i stand to be corrected on that one.
As for wearing dessert flying suits, they are available and we are therefore told to wear them, i would suggest that supplu sqn on your unit needs to try a little harder to obtain them, AT crews wear them because we are told too.
As for take off and arrival times, do be real, we again are told when to take off and at what time to land in said places, again doing as we are told.
The wearing of CBA I believe is a command decision, and therefore just pass on the instruction, and try and get others to do as they are told.
With all this doing as you are told, anybody would think we are in the military.
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This is confusing
This country is fighting a declared War in Afghanistan and Iraq
It is not a General or World War but nevertheless it is a War
We should be adopting war time procedures
AT are stilll using peacetime and training procedures regarding accommodation and special treatment which are Sh*te and I don't give a tuppenny toss about 2 GP GASO's rules regarding sharing
We are in it together and we should look after each other
Shirtsleeve Capts who insist on sleep regimes and air-con rooms need to get real
All OOA accomm should be declared 'transit' and those who arrive last get the tent, might be behind Block 102 - Sorry lads, (and lassies) hard rules
This country is fighting a declared War in Afghanistan and Iraq
It is not a General or World War but nevertheless it is a War
We should be adopting war time procedures
AT are stilll using peacetime and training procedures regarding accommodation and special treatment which are Sh*te and I don't give a tuppenny toss about 2 GP GASO's rules regarding sharing
We are in it together and we should look after each other
Shirtsleeve Capts who insist on sleep regimes and air-con rooms need to get real
All OOA accomm should be declared 'transit' and those who arrive last get the tent, might be behind Block 102 - Sorry lads, (and lassies) hard rules
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Lets call it the 'royal they' shall we, no tongue in cheek about it really, let me rephrase it as to why does the RAF choose to do it at this time? Happy now?
Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!
Rant over, and out,
HEDP
Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!
Rant over, and out,
HEDP
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HED........possibly up your ar@e
"Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!"
Are you seriously suggesting that us AT crews go regularly into both current theatres for our own convienience..........
The "royal they" that you quote have absolutely no say what so ever in what time "they" arrive anywhere in the world.
AT in all it's guises is scheduled by the transop writers who are almost always working at the behest of our green bretheren as almost all AT is tasked in direct support of the Army.
There will be a raft of "acceptable risk" considerations made by their Air/General ships but the bottom line is that those of us who crew AT simply fly the published transop. If we arrive/depart as scheduled and that does not fit into your individual req's then please direct your bleat at Ascot Op's and not the crew but before you do try humming the "theres always a bigger picture" mantra.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
"Rhetorical question really as AT rarely tends to do things at the customers convenience!"
Are you seriously suggesting that us AT crews go regularly into both current theatres for our own convienience..........
The "royal they" that you quote have absolutely no say what so ever in what time "they" arrive anywhere in the world.
AT in all it's guises is scheduled by the transop writers who are almost always working at the behest of our green bretheren as almost all AT is tasked in direct support of the Army.
There will be a raft of "acceptable risk" considerations made by their Air/General ships but the bottom line is that those of us who crew AT simply fly the published transop. If we arrive/depart as scheduled and that does not fit into your individual req's then please direct your bleat at Ascot Op's and not the crew but before you do try humming the "theres always a bigger picture" mantra.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Are you seriously suggesting that us AT crews go regularly into both current theatres for our own convienience..........
I'm sure you wouldn't bother yourself if you had the option ABIW!
AT as a whole not as a crew..........................
Amazing how almost everyone passenger wise I have come into proximity with lately on AT seems to groan at such things as timing of take-offs, inflexibility to use other UK airfields etc.
No doubt that all I have come into contact with are deluded or something, couldn't possibly be a consensus of opinion........
Regards
HEDP
I'm sure you wouldn't bother yourself if you had the option ABIW!
AT as a whole not as a crew..........................
Amazing how almost everyone passenger wise I have come into proximity with lately on AT seems to groan at such things as timing of take-offs, inflexibility to use other UK airfields etc.
No doubt that all I have come into contact with are deluded or something, couldn't possibly be a consensus of opinion........
Regards
HEDP
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HEDP,
You may remember a short while ago a policy known as 'Hub and Spoke'....actually, not a short while at all, we've been doing it for years.
The problem is that at home, the hubs (our Stns) are all being closed down or seriously limited on Operating Hours, and that most of the 'Spokes' are either deployed, Leaned or ageingly decrepid, so what what the customer gets is an apparently inflexible and inefficient service. About as inflexible and inefficient as a Navy without ships, or Paras that can't jump!!!
Whose fault is that? The AT world only 'drive the bus'. The roads and highway code are somebody else bag (sadly!).
How many times must it be said?
You may remember a short while ago a policy known as 'Hub and Spoke'....actually, not a short while at all, we've been doing it for years.
The problem is that at home, the hubs (our Stns) are all being closed down or seriously limited on Operating Hours, and that most of the 'Spokes' are either deployed, Leaned or ageingly decrepid, so what what the customer gets is an apparently inflexible and inefficient service. About as inflexible and inefficient as a Navy without ships, or Paras that can't jump!!!
Whose fault is that? The AT world only 'drive the bus'. The roads and highway code are somebody else bag (sadly!).
How many times must it be said?
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ABIW is absolutely right... timings are set generaly due to threat assessment and "what the customer wants" ie, the Army tends to want to travel (home from airhead) in daylight. Work the timings backwards from that!
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Fact is, and I've seen it from 1st hand, the AT fleet is working bl00dy hard and doing well with the resources they have right now.
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HEDP,
Just checked your profile and I think I see where you are coming from, however please PM me and I will give you my contact details. I am quite happy to chat on the phone and explain just how ham strung we at the coal face are, why Dip clears are so often screwed up etc etc.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Just checked your profile and I think I see where you are coming from, however please PM me and I will give you my contact details. I am quite happy to chat on the phone and explain just how ham strung we at the coal face are, why Dip clears are so often screwed up etc etc.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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I so didn't want to bite on this thread, as it mostly full of ill-informed drivel, but....
Last time I checked, the DEFENCE Transport and Movements Agency runs the inter-theatre AT plot in line with the direction from the Permanent JOINT Headquarters; remind me again where the ATF influences that process. 2 Gp plan the schedules iaw direction received from every man and his dog, but NOT from the operators. And do you really think that the system has any flex to act as a taxi service dropping you off at every location under the sun? If you want it for an exercise, make sure you can handle the asset (PCN, rwy width etc), bid for it (surely you know the process?) and pay for the ACHE, CFR etc to be in place. Oh, and some air traffic would be handy. Where it can be done, it is, but the pot is seriously empty in terms of crews and airframes.
STCLCAISTF set the rules for hotac (or at least used to), not GASOs; indeed, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ruling on hotac therein. Most likely your budget holder has decided that you don't need a comfy bed. It's his hotac bill. Either that or you're so busy whining you can't be ar$ed to look up the rules.
Buoy 15, you're showing your age. Shirt sleeves are now reserved solely for 32 on domestic VVIP tasks. TriStar crews wear flying suits because AOC 2 Gp directs it, as he does for all 2 Gp aircrew (except as stated); that is in GASOs. I'm sure he'd love to hear your argument.....
Crew rest. Can you honestly imagine the headlines when RAF TriStar hits jumbo outbound from LHR because the crew were f*cked having worked a 24 hour day and then been put up in the dorms with the pax. Get real. Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me. 8 hours of sheer boredom interspersed with 30 seconds of sheer panic is an oft quoted phrase....how true. But imagine the panic when that 30 seconds is the TCAS shouting TRAFFIC TRAFFIC rapidly followed by CLIMB, CLIMB NOW as you've missed the previous call. But surely that sort of thing could never happen....Oh, and please show me these peacetime training rules....unlike some fleets (I assume yours is one of them)the strat AT fleet have no OCUs or dedicated trainers. I'll leave it to you to guess where they're cutting their teeth.
Now I'm tired AND grumpy. FRI; no thanks, the tripe on this thread makes you realise what a losing battle it is.
Last time I checked, the DEFENCE Transport and Movements Agency runs the inter-theatre AT plot in line with the direction from the Permanent JOINT Headquarters; remind me again where the ATF influences that process. 2 Gp plan the schedules iaw direction received from every man and his dog, but NOT from the operators. And do you really think that the system has any flex to act as a taxi service dropping you off at every location under the sun? If you want it for an exercise, make sure you can handle the asset (PCN, rwy width etc), bid for it (surely you know the process?) and pay for the ACHE, CFR etc to be in place. Oh, and some air traffic would be handy. Where it can be done, it is, but the pot is seriously empty in terms of crews and airframes.
STCLCAISTF set the rules for hotac (or at least used to), not GASOs; indeed, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a ruling on hotac therein. Most likely your budget holder has decided that you don't need a comfy bed. It's his hotac bill. Either that or you're so busy whining you can't be ar$ed to look up the rules.
Buoy 15, you're showing your age. Shirt sleeves are now reserved solely for 32 on domestic VVIP tasks. TriStar crews wear flying suits because AOC 2 Gp directs it, as he does for all 2 Gp aircrew (except as stated); that is in GASOs. I'm sure he'd love to hear your argument.....
Crew rest. Can you honestly imagine the headlines when RAF TriStar hits jumbo outbound from LHR because the crew were f*cked having worked a 24 hour day and then been put up in the dorms with the pax. Get real. Try flying through the London TMA at 7 in the morning when you've been up all night with crappy/non-existent rest the night before, then get back to me. 8 hours of sheer boredom interspersed with 30 seconds of sheer panic is an oft quoted phrase....how true. But imagine the panic when that 30 seconds is the TCAS shouting TRAFFIC TRAFFIC rapidly followed by CLIMB, CLIMB NOW as you've missed the previous call. But surely that sort of thing could never happen....Oh, and please show me these peacetime training rules....unlike some fleets (I assume yours is one of them)the strat AT fleet have no OCUs or dedicated trainers. I'll leave it to you to guess where they're cutting their teeth.
Now I'm tired AND grumpy. FRI; no thanks, the tripe on this thread makes you realise what a losing battle it is.
Last edited by brit bus driver; 19th Dec 2006 at 23:28.
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Not this thread again 
BBD - I agree wholeheartedly. It never ceases to amaze how many "experts" there are on long-haul AT - despite never actually having done the job. They clearly ought bring this expertize to bear in DTMA, 2 Gp or ITOC as obviously the current folks have no idea what they are doing. All the scheduling/crewing/engineering/dip clear/DAS/budgetary...etc problems could easliy be solved by a junior FJ pilot by simply applying his knowledge of low-level flying.
Getting an AT/AAR aircraft into and out-of a poxy miltary airfield presents nothing but problems, as they have absolutely no idea how to handle airliners. Everything including ATC, GSE, PCN, facilitation,fuel uplift, crash cat, de-icing etc is a headache. Accomodation is also a pain in the arse - but the last thing we need is to be trying to round up cabin crew after a revitin whilst they are busy trying to return their bedding to the guardroom! But then again it would be another innovative way of delaying a departure and would give the "experts" something else to whine about. The AT fleet is extremly cost-conscious these days and Captains know that they will be held to account over uneccesary expense. But let's face it, when running the aircraft costs £20k an hour, the cost of doing accomodation properly and safely is pennies.
Back to how this thread started. A TriStar taking Tornados east? Must have been for an exercise then! Could this also be the same exercise that recovered last week? The Herc had to go to a civil airport as the FJ station couldn't accept the movement due to, wait for it..... the fireman's Xmas party
BBD - I agree wholeheartedly. It never ceases to amaze how many "experts" there are on long-haul AT - despite never actually having done the job. They clearly ought bring this expertize to bear in DTMA, 2 Gp or ITOC as obviously the current folks have no idea what they are doing. All the scheduling/crewing/engineering/dip clear/DAS/budgetary...etc problems could easliy be solved by a junior FJ pilot by simply applying his knowledge of low-level flying.
Getting an AT/AAR aircraft into and out-of a poxy miltary airfield presents nothing but problems, as they have absolutely no idea how to handle airliners. Everything including ATC, GSE, PCN, facilitation,fuel uplift, crash cat, de-icing etc is a headache. Accomodation is also a pain in the arse - but the last thing we need is to be trying to round up cabin crew after a revitin whilst they are busy trying to return their bedding to the guardroom! But then again it would be another innovative way of delaying a departure and would give the "experts" something else to whine about. The AT fleet is extremly cost-conscious these days and Captains know that they will be held to account over uneccesary expense. But let's face it, when running the aircraft costs £20k an hour, the cost of doing accomodation properly and safely is pennies.
Back to how this thread started. A TriStar taking Tornados east? Must have been for an exercise then! Could this also be the same exercise that recovered last week? The Herc had to go to a civil airport as the FJ station couldn't accept the movement due to, wait for it..... the fireman's Xmas party