Different rules for AT and FJ aircrew
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AT vs FJ vs Rotary
In my day, we assumed that the quality of accom was inversely proportional to the quality of flying you had. Hence, boring flying - 5* accom. Fabulous hands on flying - go live in a leaky tent! The grass is certainly not greener outside, unless of course you judge it on the quality of hotels, and even here there are tw*ts who can whinge about one 4* compared to another!! Fight the good fight guys, wish I was still with you!
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Erm, check the GASO is it co-location or colocation or collocation...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colocation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collocation refer!
In any event why can't FJ drivers perform straight in (quiteish) approaches to land at AKR.
There are always crews trying to sleep during the day.
Showing off to the beach idlers should have ceased after a certain F4 f*** up at the start of GW1!!!!!
I.E. the SPLASH.
Remember the lunchtime Champagne?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colocation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collocation refer!
In any event why can't FJ drivers perform straight in (quiteish) approaches to land at AKR.
There are always crews trying to sleep during the day.
Showing off to the beach idlers should have ceased after a certain F4 f*** up at the start of GW1!!!!!
I.E. the SPLASH.
Remember the lunchtime Champagne?
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During Gulf War -1, in which UK presence in the Gulf dissuaded the then Iraqi government from invading Kuwait- we were ferrying two new Hunters from UK to the Gulf to replace two used Hunters and return them to UK.
We were outbound over the day in which our FGA Squadrons were transferred from Fighter Command to Transport Command (38Gp). So we carried both FC and TC papers. Arriving late in the evening at RAF Nicosia, we two Fg Offs presented the Mover Fg Off with our TC papers. He immediately called us "Sir" and said the transport to take us to the Ledra Palace Hotel in Nicosia would be along shortly.
We didn't care for that, as we wanted a few beers that evening and an early start the next day. Our request for rooms in the OM was met with incredulity and we were told it was impossible. So we replaced our TC papers with the FC papers. This brought about an immediate change in attitude, no more subservience, we were pointed in the general direction of the Mess, and we had to walk.
Nothing much has changed since 1961, then.
We were outbound over the day in which our FGA Squadrons were transferred from Fighter Command to Transport Command (38Gp). So we carried both FC and TC papers. Arriving late in the evening at RAF Nicosia, we two Fg Offs presented the Mover Fg Off with our TC papers. He immediately called us "Sir" and said the transport to take us to the Ledra Palace Hotel in Nicosia would be along shortly.
We didn't care for that, as we wanted a few beers that evening and an early start the next day. Our request for rooms in the OM was met with incredulity and we were told it was impossible. So we replaced our TC papers with the FC papers. This brought about an immediate change in attitude, no more subservience, we were pointed in the general direction of the Mess, and we had to walk.
Nothing much has changed since 1961, then.
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Truckies vs the rest has been going on virtually since time immemorial. I first experienced it as a Valiant copilot in the 50s and it became particularly irksome as a tanker driver in the 70s. One of the chief gripes was that the truckies always got the air con accommodation at Cyprue and Gan whilst we sweated it out. I can remenber arriving at Gan after a particularly difficult tanker slot drenched in the proverbial, getting into a bath with flying kit still on, then getting out and letting the evaporation do its bit. Meanwhile a VC10 crew who had landed a few minutes later, having been transported from their air conditioned aircraft to their air conditioned rooms (all singles) could be found, cool as cucumbers in the Blue Lagoon. Such memories still rankle. I am very surprised that it still goes on. The standard GASO response must be as annoying now as it was then.
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WTF?
Ffs, does it really matter. As long as you get somewhere to sleep where things that are trying to kill you are not raining down on your head then what does it matter?
I bet the Army are just wetting themselves over this thread.
I bet the Army are just wetting themselves over this thread.
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It's nice to have a quick shufty at Prune, after a few days off, and find you lot going around and around a very familiar buoy!! I must admit that I thought co-location had died out.....whatever. Now we have JPA I can't even work up th strength to claim for anything so knowing that I'm not entitled (being RW) doesn't really hurt. I did stay in a hotel once.. I think... it's only a distant memory. Even lunch stops are a thing of the past as the hardware needs be kept going 100% of the time. At least I don't have to worry about when I go AT - no-one gets that unless they have some sort of physical problem that stops them doing their present job (apparently an enlarged g*t does not count)
When certain animals face starvation, they start fighting amongst themselves. It seems it's happening here - frustration looking for a scapegoat turns to an easy target.
Oh - and it's 'shufti', by the way.
Oh - and it's 'shufti', by the way.
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Either "shufti" or "shufty" are equally acceptable actually. From the Arabic (colloquial Egyptian, not Modern Standard).
See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shufti
or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shufty
If you are going to be pedantic, be correct.....
See http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shufti
or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shufty
If you are going to be pedantic, be correct.....
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Need Sleep
It is important for both AT & FJ crews to get the required rest even Stewards need their rest. I mean Flying in a Cab thats been serviced by a guy who doesn't warrant a discussion on sleep who averages a 72hr op week with no spares signing up jobs he hasnt time to carry out ignoring MP's all with no sleep. Anyone that thinks i'm painting an "E-goat" picture should avail themselves of the PVR rates of FU engineers returning from the Sand.
I'd want to be awake for when things start to go wrong.
One rule to rule them all and in the darkness bind them?
I'd want to be awake for when things start to go wrong.
One rule to rule them all and in the darkness bind them?
Jaysus! Lots of whinging and whining here.
Some talk here about the grass not being greener on the outside. Yeah, on the whole I agree with that. Its not all greener, just different grass. Familiarity ..... contempt ..... etc etc.
One thing I can say is that the 'accomodation' grass where I am is MUCH much, greener. I get my own private porcelain crapper ....... (heavy contented sigh) ....... not one thats been pebble-dashed by an flight engineer whos had too many pints of cochinelli with his kebab.
Some talk here about the grass not being greener on the outside. Yeah, on the whole I agree with that. Its not all greener, just different grass. Familiarity ..... contempt ..... etc etc.
One thing I can say is that the 'accomodation' grass where I am is MUCH much, greener. I get my own private porcelain crapper ....... (heavy contented sigh) ....... not one thats been pebble-dashed by an flight engineer whos had too many pints of cochinelli with his kebab.
Well WE get our own porcelain urinal in Block 102, it's so clean you could almost wash your face in it
Obviously we only stay there when there's no fast jet mates around, the first sign of a Tonka crew and we're straight downtown just to give them something to whinge about
Obviously we only stay there when there's no fast jet mates around, the first sign of a Tonka crew and we're straight downtown just to give them something to whinge about
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Work this one out....
I recently attended Bristol Groundschool to do the ATPl crammer, I was using ELC to part-fund it. Mate from an AT Sqn was doing the same course, and using ELC to part-fund it. HOWEVER, he was allowed to claim Food, Accom, Incidentals and Travel. Me, nothing. Neither of us were/are on resettlement. How does that work?!
Unless he requires an ATPL for his "job" (not sure what the rules are with all these new-fangled aircraft like 32/45 Sqn etc) or he is on formal resettlement then I would suggest he is not entitled. After all if he is not on duty (ie on resettlement) then he must have taken leave to attend the course (unless its weekends etc) and even truckies can't claim allowances for being on leave (although I stand to be corrected!
)
The problem with JPA is that it in effect allows you to self authorise pretty much any claim (after all you only have to provide suitable words for the "authority") with only a random percentage change of being subjected to audit (unless he has claimed an advance of rates in which case, if I understand the [unwritten] rules correctly will always be subject to audit).
He has either been badly briefed or may be about to find himself having a wee-chat with a scuffer or two. He would be wise to seek further advice from whats left of PSF/HR before hitting the big submit button. Ignorance, however bad the supporting manuals are, is no excuse!
Unless of course he's a truckie-pruner who has read this thread and knew it would cause some gnashing of teeth! And the odd bite!
)The problem with JPA is that it in effect allows you to self authorise pretty much any claim (after all you only have to provide suitable words for the "authority") with only a random percentage change of being subjected to audit (unless he has claimed an advance of rates in which case, if I understand the [unwritten] rules correctly will always be subject to audit).
He has either been badly briefed or may be about to find himself having a wee-chat with a scuffer or two. He would be wise to seek further advice from whats left of PSF/HR
before hitting the big submit button. Ignorance, however bad the supporting manuals are, is no excuse!Unless of course he's a truckie-pruner who has read this thread and knew it would cause some gnashing of teeth! And the odd bite!
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Download Dog
Nice work. Bring it out in the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.
Why don't you ask your education section or speak to the AT mate direct. I presume you would lower yourself to speak to someone from an AT Sqn...
Another blue on blue....
Wrathmonk
Another example of think before you post...I will look forward to trying to fXXk you over in apublic forum.
Nice work.
Bring it out in the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.Why don't you ask your education section or speak to the AT mate direct. I presume you would lower yourself to speak to someone from an AT Sqn...
Another blue on blue....
Wrathmonk
Another example of think before you post...I will look forward to trying to fXXk you over in apublic forum.
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Concur RudeKid,
this is vintage Pprune/military. Here is a novel idea..... Instead of trying to bring others down to the perceived lower level of existence and conditions which (some) of you seem to believe you are on, how (outrageous suggestion I know) about, if you believe some people are on a better wicket, you try and get yourselves UP to that standard. Eg if you perceive AT crews to be living the high life in 5* hotels, then instead of trying to bring them down to tents, why not exert your energies trying to get yourself in the position where you are entitled to a (percieved) 5* hotel????
Now, back to the original question of this thread. As the Captain of the tanker on this particular trail, I DID try and get the FJ mates downtown with the tanker crew, and was told in uncertain terms NO. I'd be intrigued to know just what else I should have perhaps done! TonkaBoy, I'm sorry we weren't co located, and I agree it's crap rules/planning whatever, not to mention divisive (and embarassing for me at the time), and frankly, I have no idea why/if the rules differ. ?Have a safe Det.
this is vintage Pprune/military. Here is a novel idea..... Instead of trying to bring others down to the perceived lower level of existence and conditions which (some) of you seem to believe you are on, how (outrageous suggestion I know) about, if you believe some people are on a better wicket, you try and get yourselves UP to that standard. Eg if you perceive AT crews to be living the high life in 5* hotels, then instead of trying to bring them down to tents, why not exert your energies trying to get yourself in the position where you are entitled to a (percieved) 5* hotel????
Now, back to the original question of this thread. As the Captain of the tanker on this particular trail, I DID try and get the FJ mates downtown with the tanker crew, and was told in uncertain terms NO. I'd be intrigued to know just what else I should have perhaps done! TonkaBoy, I'm sorry we weren't co located, and I agree it's crap rules/planning whatever, not to mention divisive (and embarassing for me at the time), and frankly, I have no idea why/if the rules differ. ?Have a safe Det.
rudekid
I thought before posting thanks. You live up to your name! Are you said AT mate then?
If he (and all the other you suggest are also doing it - quote "... bring it out on the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.") has nothing to hide and it is perfectly legit nothing I said will f**k him over. Indeed, it may save his gratuity, pension and a criminal record all for a few quid and let everyone else who is seeking an ATPL the knowledge to fill their boots with allowances support. Or is it just a secret allowance for truckies?
But if he is knowingly commiting fraud then he (and I guess by your anger, you) deserve everything they get.
Far from a blue on blue my advice was actually trying to prevent such a thing. The last thing we, the military, needs right now is an AT officer being courts martialled for expense fraud. There have been no names mentioned so it can be nipped in the bud right now.
I look forward to you trying to f**k me over in a public forum. Grow up.
I thought before posting thanks. You live up to your name! Are you said AT mate then?
If he (and all the other you suggest are also doing it - quote "... bring it out on the public domain and then it might get stopped for everyone.") has nothing to hide and it is perfectly legit nothing I said will f**k him over. Indeed, it may save his gratuity, pension and a criminal record all for a few quid and let everyone else who is seeking an ATPL the knowledge to fill their boots with allowances support. Or is it just a secret allowance for truckies?
But if he is knowingly commiting fraud then he (and I guess by your anger, you) deserve everything they get.
Far from a blue on blue my advice was actually trying to prevent such a thing. The last thing we, the military, needs right now is an AT officer being courts martialled for expense fraud. There have been no names mentioned so it can be nipped in the bud right now.
I look forward to you trying to f**k me over in a public forum. Grow up.
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Wrathmonk
Nothing to do with me at all chap. Just makes me cross that an apparently serving FJ mate would wish to shout about this in public. You should know full well that allowances are interpreted differently in different places. I know full well that some FJ bases interpret allowances rules in different ways to their advantage. I'm not going to mention them here because, as you should know, the stock answer from STC is always to stop the perceived beneficial practice until an investigation has taken place. This inevitably comes down to the lowest financial outlay. So regardless of whether said AT mate was in the right or not, the interpretation of allowances is homogenized to the lowest financial outlay.
Therefore someone loses out.
if he's committing fraud, throw the book at him. But in this day and age, not many people are that stupid over a small amount of money.
I stand by my premise that we shouldn't be talking about this in a open forum. If the original poster had concerns about the AT mates allowances, why not ask direct instead of starting (it's happening) a PiXXXng contest. If he's got real doubts, go through the chain of command. Just don't bring it out here!
Nothing to do with me at all chap. Just makes me cross that an apparently serving FJ mate would wish to shout about this in public. You should know full well that allowances are interpreted differently in different places. I know full well that some FJ bases interpret allowances rules in different ways to their advantage. I'm not going to mention them here because, as you should know, the stock answer from STC is always to stop the perceived beneficial practice until an investigation has taken place. This inevitably comes down to the lowest financial outlay. So regardless of whether said AT mate was in the right or not, the interpretation of allowances is homogenized to the lowest financial outlay.
Therefore someone loses out.
if he's committing fraud, throw the book at him. But in this day and age, not many people are that stupid over a small amount of money.
I stand by my premise that we shouldn't be talking about this in a open forum. If the original poster had concerns about the AT mates allowances, why not ask direct instead of starting (it's happening) a PiXXXng contest. If he's got real doubts, go through the chain of command. Just don't bring it out here!
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Only a couple of questions if I may,
If colocation is critical to flight safety then why are AT crews not required to be colocated on base for 24 hours prior to departure for a route? It seems that the argument defeats itself with that little one! The crews will most probably be most fatigued when commuting to start a sector than at any other time during it.
Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.
Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?
Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.
Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),
HEDP
If colocation is critical to flight safety then why are AT crews not required to be colocated on base for 24 hours prior to departure for a route? It seems that the argument defeats itself with that little one! The crews will most probably be most fatigued when commuting to start a sector than at any other time during it.
Why not use service accomodation if available? Surely not to do so would constitute a misuse of public funds.
Why do those Timmy crews wear desert flying suits when other users from differing fleets cant get them for love nor money especially as there are only limited occasions where the Timmy crews expose themselves to the harshness of the desert moonlight?
Why do they plan to arrive in the wee early hours in order to ensure people are kept up all night. Surely, arrive earlier then more night hours to cater for any unscheduled delays without requiring to waste a whole day before departing? Or is it all too inconvenient to start the day in the UK earlier.
Dons Flack Jacket (and thats another thing, what kin use are they when the rounds will come up from below or from the side, not conveniently front to rear),
HEDP