RAF Meltdown - Has it begun?

[Rigga]

As I say to many of my colleagues here, in this high pressure (and indeed highly commercial) atmosphere;

"Aviation Safety is a very serious business - but that doesn't mean you cant have a sense of humour!"

Its nearly Christmas Chug.

[An Teallach]

Unless of course it is a serious contention that RAF meltdown is the result of bad writing!

I doubt anyone would advance that as a contention. However, the contention that the "Rib-tickling Gobbledegook" is merely a symptom and product of the grave failure of leadership that has led to the posited 'RAF Meltdown' is, to my mind, approaching the undeniable.

[toddbabe]

Originally Posted by TMJ

At the risk of sounding like the party line, if you're under-recruiting in significant portions of society, you are unlikely to be getting the best people to fill the slots you've got. I think targetted advertising/recruitment pushes are perfectly reasonable...

I think it is unreasonable to push for certain target numbers, there is nothing wrong with advertising campaigns and recruitment drives for certain people but only as part of an overall drive for a certain number of people full stop.
How you make up that number is irrelevant, if you have advertised the jobs and only a tiny percentage of ethnic minorities take up the offers then so be it! to say that for eg twenty per cent should be from ethnic minorities is a joke, all that you end up doing is prejudicing against none ethnics to help you make your stats and appear to be multi cultural.
The met police have been given a very high figure of ethnicity to be attained by 2012 and already their is evidence of positive discrimination to help achieve this, perfectly good white candidates have been overlooked so that the stats will be met!!!!
And what happens, you get certain ethnic types asking to be removed from certain duties cos they don't agree with them! I am all for ethnic minorities doing any job in society as long as they have been recruited fairly and equally alongside their counterparts irrespective of race, and whilst I fully respect their cultures and different religions they too must respect ours, if they don't think they can fullfill their role due to their religion or beliefs then they shouldn't do the job full stop, nobody should be able to ask for special treatment due to their religion or culture if you want the job you do it in our country by our rules.

[Mead Pusher]

Originally Posted by toddbabe

nobody should be able to ask for special treatment due to their religion or culture if you want the job you do it in our country by our rules.

I think the point is that it's their country too, so why haven't "our" rules changed to reflect that. Just because they're ethnic minorities doesn't mean that they're not British!

I agree with your sentiment on quotas, though. It is fine to have a big push to get more ethnic minorities to apply to join, but everyone that applies must be treated the same - even if it means that we don't meet our targets.

[TMJ]

Originally Posted by toddbabe

I think it is unreasonable to push for certain target numbers, there is nothing wrong with advertising campaigns and recruitment drives for certain people but only as part of an overall drive for a certain number of people full stop.

Absolutely; and that is what we're doing; within the overall publicity drove, money and manpower is being focussed on areas of the population where we traditionally under-recruit.

How you make up that number is irrelevant, if you have advertised the jobs and only a tiny percentage of ethnic minorities take up the offers then so be it! to say that for eg twenty per cent should be from ethnic minorities is a joke, all that you end up doing is prejudicing against none ethnics to help you make your stats and appear to be multi cultural.

Eh? I certainly made no suggestion that we should have different entry standards for different groups for the same job and know of no Serrvice policy that would allow for that. The target figures are a way of keeping score how well (or otherwise) we are doing in getting the "Life in a blue suit's pretty good" message to people outside the traditional recruitment pool. I fear you're sniping at a perception which is way left of arc of the reality; unfortunately you're right thtat that perception can cause resentment and further problems.

The met police have been given a very high figure of ethnicity to be attained by 2012 and already their is evidence of positive discrimination to help achieve this, perfectly good white candidates have been overlooked so that the stats will be met!!!!

I have a mate who's just joined the Met who reckons his application took years for just that reason. And I think that's wrong. And so do our Services, based on my experience at IofR at Cranwell and the message I got on a recent course at Shrivenham's Jt Equality and Diversity Trg Centre.*

And what happens, you get certain ethnic types asking to be removed from certain duties cos they don't agree with them! I am all for ethnic minorities doing any job in society as long as they have been recruited fairly and equally alongside their counterparts irrespective of race, and whilst I fully respect their cultures and different religions they too must respect ours, if they don't think they can fullfill their role due to their religion or beliefs then they shouldn't do the job full stop, nobody should be able to ask for special treatment due to their religion or culture if you want the job you do it in our country by our rules.

No time off for Easter or Christmas then, that's special treatment according to religion. Less sarcasticly, the Met constable case you're refering to is obviously wrong and an abuse of the system, but if people have religious requirements that can be met without compromising operational effectiveness, should we not try to meet them? The intention being to make the individuals feel looked after and therefore get the best out of them as well as avoiding putting potentially good candidates off applying in the first place? Example that spring to mind are Sikh turbans vs berets or caps, veggie and kosher rat packs etc. The "do it in our country by our rules" point is needlessly confrontational and frankly misleading; most of the people being targetted were born and raised here. Indeed, gven that I'm a second generation immigrant from a religion institutionally discriminated against by the Britsh state, I guarantee it's perfectly possible to feel totally loyal to the Crown and the Service in such circumstances; it's my bloody country too. Granted as my family's Irish Catholic and my accent's on the RP side of things I don't exactly stand out as being of immigrant stock, so I don't actually get that sort of comment much but can understand how it'd rile people.

And going back to my Christmas point, a mix of religions can work in your favour; "Certainly you can have time off for Eid/Diwali/Yom Kippur; by the way, you're duty bod on 25 Dec..."


*Yes, I know; "Jt Equality and Diversity Trg Centre?!?!?" Having been pinged to be the bloke from our sqn to do an EO adviser cse there, I must say I think they've got a pretty good grip on things and are pushing a message of getting the best out of each individual to enhance operational effectiveness, which is what the whole agenda should have been from the offset. I don't like the some of the the use of language which I think exacerbates the sort of reaction toddbabe has, but the overall drive is in the right direction

[toddbabe]

Thanks for the very thorough reply, I am in no way trying to be argumentative or confrontational but just have strong but I believe fair and open views on the way that it seems to be we are doing things in this country.
I am all for a nation of acceptance and respect for others beliefs, and whilst I don't wish to appear inflexible I just don't really believe that we should ammend our ways to accomodate others at the expense of others, I believe that if a person wants a job then they should do it according to the rules that are already in place, that others have to adhere to, the emphasis should be on them to be flexible and not us.
The argument about Christmas and Easter, doesn't really stand up as we are a Christian nation, approx 70 percent of this nation are Christians and therefore it is not unreasonable for us to primarily celebrate those festivals.

[geezerBJ]

[QUOTE=TMJ;3021102
No time off for Easter or Christmas then, that's special treatment according to religion. [/QUOTE]

I think that you will find that these are British Public Holidays and all HM Forces and Civil Services are entitled to the time off, along with Christmas and New Year. They may be based on Christian religious celebrations ..... thats because Britain is a Chrisitian nation ... and long may it remain that way. If you don't like it you know where the door is

[Climebear]

Originally Posted by geezerBJ

I think that you will find that these are British Public Holidays and all HM Forces and Civil Services are entitled to the time off, along with Christmas and New Year. They may be based on Christian religious celebrations ..... thats because Britain is a Chrisitian nation ... and long may it remain that way. If you don't like it you know where the door is

Actually there is no legal entitlement to Public Holidays. As for Britain being a Christian nation - I assume you meant the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Well that will be the Christian nation in which the vast majority of the population do not attend a Christian church and a significant proportion do not follow any faith at all (although they will most probably say that they are CofE).

[geezerBJ]

There is a contractual entitlement to public holidays and as employment contracts are legally binding, I disagree.
As for your comments on religion,the most popular religion in Britain and indeed Europe is Christianity....Fact. You don't have to attend Old Trafford every Saturday afternoon to be a Man Utd fan.

[glum]

Possibly not, but does one have to go to church to believe in God?

More to the point, I think it's the fact that the nation's rules were built up from the base of the Christian teachings, and at their basest, the ten commandments.

Our outlook and philisophy is based on Christianity as opposed to Hindu, Muslim, Jedi or whatever else is out there to follow.

Surely anyone wishing to join the armed forces must be prepared to accept all (legal) orders that are asked of them. If not, then they leave - as we are seeing more and more now.

The fact that more and more of the forces are leaving becase they are no longer prepared to tolerate the latest orders and changes to our working pracitces is perhaps what those at the top require.

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by glum

The fact that more and more of the forces are leaving becase they are no longer prepared to tolerate the latest orders and changes to our working pracitces is perhaps what those at the top require.

You mean to suggest that there is method to this madness, glum?

[glum]

Lets just say it wouldn't surprise me.

Much like the fact that news reports this morning say TB is currently in Iraq where 120 people a DAY are dying in sectarian violence. Perhaps our boys in theatre can remain safely inside the wire for long enough that there's no-one left to govern, and then TB and GWB can stroll on in and take the oil...

[Rigga]

Chug - A nice precis of LEAN for you.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256895

Regards
Rigga

[Climebear]

Originally Posted by geezerBJ

There is a contractual entitlement to public holidays and as employment contracts are legally binding, I disagree.
As for your comments on religion,the most popular religion in Britain and indeed Europe is Christianity....Fact. You don't have to attend Old Trafford every Saturday afternoon to be a Man Utd fan.

There is no legal obligation for Public Holidays to be included in anyone's employment contract (not that Armed Forces personnel have employement contracts under the terms of UK employment legislation). There is no RAF regulatiory entitlement to time off on a bank holiday as many of RAF personnel who will be working on Christmas Day and Boxing Day will testify.

But you cannot call yourself a footballer if you don't play football (even though you believe that there is a game called football).

Originally Posted by glum

Possibly not, but does one have to go to church to believe in God?
More to the point, I think it's the fact that the nation's rules were built up from the base of the Christian teachings, and at their basest, the ten commandments.
Our outlook and philisophy is based on Christianity as opposed to Hindu, Muslim, Jedi or whatever else is out there to follow.
Surely anyone wishing to join the armed forces must be prepared to accept all (legal) orders that are asked of them. If not, then they leave - as we are seeing more and more now.
The fact that more and more of the forces are leaving becase they are no longer prepared to tolerate the latest orders and changes to our working pracitces is perhaps what those at the top require.

Interesting point as Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the existance of the same god - So belief in a god per se does not make an individual a Christian (or Jew or Muslim), it is how that belief is manifested ie by practising Christianity (or Judaism or Islam). Oh and the Ten Commandments are from Judaism.

[Chugalug2]

Originally Posted by Rigga

Chug - A nice precis of LEAN for you.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=256895
Regards Rigga

Many thanks Rigga, I knew all along that it wasn't really the name of a Boy Band, I was only joshing, no really I was! "Nice" wouldn't be quite the description I'd choose though, "utterly utterly useless" would be nearer the mark (for LEAN, not the precis). Indeed having read the sub-thread off the above, re Lyneham and OC ENG WG's OBE/promotion, the post from Purr Harder (ingenious these tags!) says it all :
"Well here we are almost 1 year down the line from the survey done for Simpler in Eng wing, and guess what the hangar is still cold, the tools are still inadequate, the infrastructure is still bad, communication is still poor and tools still do not match the job.. The tradesmen are not empowered or encouraged and to a man hate LEAN and everything it stands for. It has destroyed Eng Wing ( never mind we will just change the name to Forward Support Wing). We have the worse rate of S aircraft ever and the lowest morale I have ever seen. The guys are happier doing Gate guard or going to Basrah than working on HLS or FLECS. The LEAN Rapid Improvement Events are a total waste of time, the outcome is already decided by OC FSW (OBE). All the troops want to do is be able to fix aircraft 24/30 & 47/70 used to manage it. If this is spreading to the rest of the RAF God help us. Can some one in power please put a stop to this madness."

My initial suspicion that it was bean counter gobbledygook for cuts is still my best bet. Interesting that the only person (apart from Ms) who thinks otherwise would appear to be VecVecwhatever, says it all really!