CS vs. Mil Pay
Hellbound
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Also a bit unfair, but am in the mood for sweeping generalizations so no apologies!
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I must admit that I too have taken your comments to heart JimLad.
To say that Civil Service types face the same dangers as servicemen just beggars belief. A close friend of mine (RAF) was patrolling the streets of Kabul this year. On £50 a day. So show me one single CS robot who would happily stand on route violet in Kabul searching vehicles, wearing a uniform, being a big target, for any less than your £150 a day.
Working on base at Basrah Air Station, Kabul Airport, wherever does NOT constitute the same risks as a 19 year old Regiment SAC getting "down and dirty" with the insurgents / Taleban.
"Ah but WE volunteer for it!" I hear you say.
Yeah so did he. When he chose to sign on the dotted line and serve his country. We're all volunteers buddy.
Crawl back into your hole at MOD.
You should be ashamed of your posts EVERY TIME another body is announced in the sandpit. I hope your current account balance helps you sleep at night.
To say that Civil Service types face the same dangers as servicemen just beggars belief. A close friend of mine (RAF) was patrolling the streets of Kabul this year. On £50 a day. So show me one single CS robot who would happily stand on route violet in Kabul searching vehicles, wearing a uniform, being a big target, for any less than your £150 a day.
Working on base at Basrah Air Station, Kabul Airport, wherever does NOT constitute the same risks as a 19 year old Regiment SAC getting "down and dirty" with the insurgents / Taleban.
"Ah but WE volunteer for it!" I hear you say.
Yeah so did he. When he chose to sign on the dotted line and serve his country. We're all volunteers buddy.
Crawl back into your hole at MOD.
You should be ashamed of your posts EVERY TIME another body is announced in the sandpit. I hope your current account balance helps you sleep at night.
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Jimlad,
The pay scales showing non-X factor pay certainly relate to Full Time Reserve Service personnel in the RN - not sure about RNRs, TA etc - but basically, if you're a full time CPO/WO/Lt/Lt Cdr etc working on FTRS, you're paid the full time normal service pay minus the X-factor. As we have quite a lot of these non-deployables past normal retirement age, they actually publish the tables for all to see - so those receiving it know how much they are going to get and so that PAS knows how much to pay them....or JPA does not as the case may be at the end of this month....
The pay scales showing non-X factor pay certainly relate to Full Time Reserve Service personnel in the RN - not sure about RNRs, TA etc - but basically, if you're a full time CPO/WO/Lt/Lt Cdr etc working on FTRS, you're paid the full time normal service pay minus the X-factor. As we have quite a lot of these non-deployables past normal retirement age, they actually publish the tables for all to see - so those receiving it know how much they are going to get and so that PAS knows how much to pay them....or JPA does not as the case may be at the end of this month....
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Oh B*llocks!!
I've been in contact with a few of you via PM on this issue. Perhaps let me start by making a public apology. My posts on Monday were fatuous and out of order - my only excuse being that I was very, very tired and also rather hacked off on unrelated matters. I apologise unrerservedly for my "overpaid, overfed" and other comments.
Secondly, I would like to point out that I am not a new poster here to bait the RAF. I've been posting here for over 5 years, under my previous alter ego (Jimlad) and only changed when my previous log in died.
I would say that my views are being slightly misrepresented - I am not comparing the role of the average CS to that of a squaddy on the street in terms of danger faced. I was alluding to, but not very well, the fact that in BAS, where the majority of the RAF do not leave the compound, that the average CS faces a similar threat level and exposure to risk as everyone else - military/ ISF / civvy contractors and CS.
I have no truck (and thought I made that clear) with the D Grade is an Officer BS that you sometimes see. The grades exist as a hangover from when CS promotion occurred in similar timescales to military promotion, thus a C2 would be promoted at about the same point in their career as a Flt Lt would go to Sqn Ldr. The huge changes to the CS in the past 30 years have rendered that system obsolete. I would quite happily see the equivalency system changed. (For the record though, last time I did an Army course, the WO1 called me Maj Jim - when I asked to be called Mr, he threw a strop as he couldnt cope with the idea that not all Civvies like being called ranks that they haven't EARNED).
Personally, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a Mil Aircrew forum - happy to debate / discuss individually via PM (or via Defence bulletin board for those of you on DII), but this to me is not the location for this debate.
Finally, it would be fair to say that although I'm a CS - I'm not an "admin claims filing type" and have been heavily involved with incidents where troops have been killed. I've stood on the tarmac at BAS enough times watching coffins being loaded into Hercs to know the difference.
I've been in contact with a few of you via PM on this issue. Perhaps let me start by making a public apology. My posts on Monday were fatuous and out of order - my only excuse being that I was very, very tired and also rather hacked off on unrelated matters. I apologise unrerservedly for my "overpaid, overfed" and other comments.
Secondly, I would like to point out that I am not a new poster here to bait the RAF. I've been posting here for over 5 years, under my previous alter ego (Jimlad) and only changed when my previous log in died.
I would say that my views are being slightly misrepresented - I am not comparing the role of the average CS to that of a squaddy on the street in terms of danger faced. I was alluding to, but not very well, the fact that in BAS, where the majority of the RAF do not leave the compound, that the average CS faces a similar threat level and exposure to risk as everyone else - military/ ISF / civvy contractors and CS.
I have no truck (and thought I made that clear) with the D Grade is an Officer BS that you sometimes see. The grades exist as a hangover from when CS promotion occurred in similar timescales to military promotion, thus a C2 would be promoted at about the same point in their career as a Flt Lt would go to Sqn Ldr. The huge changes to the CS in the past 30 years have rendered that system obsolete. I would quite happily see the equivalency system changed. (For the record though, last time I did an Army course, the WO1 called me Maj Jim - when I asked to be called Mr, he threw a strop as he couldnt cope with the idea that not all Civvies like being called ranks that they haven't EARNED).
Personally, I don't think this is an appropriate thread for a Mil Aircrew forum - happy to debate / discuss individually via PM (or via Defence bulletin board for those of you on DII), but this to me is not the location for this debate.
Finally, it would be fair to say that although I'm a CS - I'm not an "admin claims filing type" and have been heavily involved with incidents where troops have been killed. I've stood on the tarmac at BAS enough times watching coffins being loaded into Hercs to know the difference.
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Finally, it would be fair to say that although I'm a CS - I'm not an "admin claims filing type" and have been heavily involved with incidents where troops have been killed. I've stood on the tarmac at BAS enough times watching coffins being loaded into Hercs to know the difference.
Just how heavily involved were you in these incidents you cite?
Bullets incoming? Big bangs going off near your soft skinned truck? Or writing some admin drivel about the incidents (as I suspect) after the event?
You've made your bed I'm afraid. And your argument seems to still be along the lines of "hey we deserve the pay!".
Let me broadcast this to you clearly:
YOU DON'T.
The guys on the ground deserve better. You civilian wage mercenary "volunteers" are on a good number and you know it.
How dare you compare yourselves to serving airmen.
I'm not going to join you on the DII thing thank you. You've had just about as much spleen as I can vent for now. (And I'm not on the system)
I will make this clearer for you this time.
When you see bodies coming home, I hope you sleep better at night having read your bank balance.
Your type make my blood boil and I wouldn't p*ss on you if you were on fire.
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I joined the civil service after leaving the RAF and served overseas, where I was treated for tax purposes as a UK citizen, paid by HMG in UK. Taxed as normal.
There doesn't seem to me anything particularly exceptional about the young chap's tax position.
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Also can I remind that the majority of the CS will sit in an office well behind the wire with te odd mortar falling there or thereabouts.
We, on the other hand, go sausage side get shot at (we signed for that haven't we, the defense of our country.....hang on a minute..?) but we earn our LSSA. 5 pounds a day taxed at 40%, ie 3 pounds a day.
So JIMLAD1 are u telling me that I should count myself lucky with my package of £3 a day for risking mylikfe in someone else's war, and getting 1 day off every 8 when i get back in the uk. Come to think of it why am I complaining?
Get away from this forum and stop talking a*se to people in the business who REALLY know what it's like.
We, on the other hand, go sausage side get shot at (we signed for that haven't we, the defense of our country.....hang on a minute..?) but we earn our LSSA. 5 pounds a day taxed at 40%, ie 3 pounds a day.
So JIMLAD1 are u telling me that I should count myself lucky with my package of £3 a day for risking mylikfe in someone else's war, and getting 1 day off every 8 when i get back in the uk. Come to think of it why am I complaining?
Get away from this forum and stop talking a*se to people in the business who REALLY know what it's like.
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OTOH, sitting even further back, with service personnel earning far more than their CS boss one could challenge pay rates on employmeny law basis.
I believe this has happened successfully where a female supervisor was being paid less than her male subordinates.
In the military case it would be necessary, in UK, to separate out the X-factor, the 7/24 hr commitment etc, to prove that the serviceman was, pro rata, on a lower pay rate albeit had significantly higher pre-tax, take-home pay.
Overseas the distinction, say inside the safehaven, would be finely balanced and the C2 CS should, everything being equal, be paid at the same rate as his military equivalent and so on down the line.
Could be interesting if the unions decided to take that one up.
Now where's my flak jacket, oh sh*t, I handed it in.
I believe this has happened successfully where a female supervisor was being paid less than her male subordinates.
In the military case it would be necessary, in UK, to separate out the X-factor, the 7/24 hr commitment etc, to prove that the serviceman was, pro rata, on a lower pay rate albeit had significantly higher pre-tax, take-home pay.
Overseas the distinction, say inside the safehaven, would be finely balanced and the C2 CS should, everything being equal, be paid at the same rate as his military equivalent and so on down the line.
Could be interesting if the unions decided to take that one up.
Now where's my flak jacket, oh sh*t, I handed it in.
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This really is A Grade slapstick. In a thread titled "CS vs. Mil Pay", BeB tells of a BJ mate who has a civie clerk who is alleged to be on £350 per day, Tax free. JL1 points out the daftness of the story and immediately, out of the clouds, dive n dozen shoulder chips in close formation!
It's a recognised tradition that a pointy will bind about blunties and, in turn, the blunties will drip about the even blunter. The Mod was quite right, though, to move this from the Para thread but I think he must have dropped it enroute to Jet Blast. I'm sure that any documentary evidence that tarnishes the sandurban myth will quickly be shouted down as irrelevant and, hey, why spoil a good rant magnet. Nige G had a fair go at providing some documentary comparisons but the Deity alone knows where they are from. If serious debate is intended, then, lets have one. If we are just in for a game of yah-boo-sucks, let's say so and we can all join in the fun.
It's a recognised tradition that a pointy will bind about blunties and, in turn, the blunties will drip about the even blunter. The Mod was quite right, though, to move this from the Para thread but I think he must have dropped it enroute to Jet Blast. I'm sure that any documentary evidence that tarnishes the sandurban myth will quickly be shouted down as irrelevant and, hey, why spoil a good rant magnet. Nige G had a fair go at providing some documentary comparisons but the Deity alone knows where they are from. If serious debate is intended, then, lets have one. If we are just in for a game of yah-boo-sucks, let's say so and we can all join in the fun.
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Feel I had to reply. Firstly pay scales (based on the 2004 AFPRB and 2004 PPPA tables:
Min Max
OF5 65218 72083
OF4 56315 62254
OF3 40124 48055
OF2 31853 37883
OF1 13081 27453
B1 42608 58735
B2 35844 47031
C1 26002 34970
C2 20821 28702
D 16672 24146
E1 13024 19817
E2 10957 16672
If anyone is remotely interested capitation rates can also be supplied.
IMHO anyone on OOA is fulling deserving of the maximum amount they can get out of the Treasury. But beware of HM Treasury bearing gifts (aka new allowances, talk of tax free salary for OOA ops). How long until the bean counters decide that if they're paying an operational allowance why should they also contribute to the military salary via the X factor. How long until Gordon decides to eliminate this flat rate enhancement in favour of OOA/Excess Hours payments?
I write this as ex Military who since becoming a Civi has also deployed to FRY (96), SL (00), Iraq (03) and preparing for A'stan.
Min Max
OF5 65218 72083
OF4 56315 62254
OF3 40124 48055
OF2 31853 37883
OF1 13081 27453
B1 42608 58735
B2 35844 47031
C1 26002 34970
C2 20821 28702
D 16672 24146
E1 13024 19817
E2 10957 16672
If anyone is remotely interested capitation rates can also be supplied.
IMHO anyone on OOA is fulling deserving of the maximum amount they can get out of the Treasury. But beware of HM Treasury bearing gifts (aka new allowances, talk of tax free salary for OOA ops). How long until the bean counters decide that if they're paying an operational allowance why should they also contribute to the military salary via the X factor. How long until Gordon decides to eliminate this flat rate enhancement in favour of OOA/Excess Hours payments?
I write this as ex Military who since becoming a Civi has also deployed to FRY (96), SL (00), Iraq (03) and preparing for A'stan.
C2 £20821 £28702
E1 £13024 £19817
Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.
The real problem, and what provokes some of the more juvenile comments about the CS, is that an increasing number are promoted before demonstrating the basic competences required of the previous 2 or 3 grades. There is a huge spread of competence across any given Grade; something that, in my experience, does not happen in the Services. So, I can name C2s who have managed both £100M projects and 200 staff, but I can also name far more senior management in DPA who would s*** themselves at the thought of such responsibility.
E1 £13024 £19817
Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.
The real problem, and what provokes some of the more juvenile comments about the CS, is that an increasing number are promoted before demonstrating the basic competences required of the previous 2 or 3 grades. There is a huge spread of competence across any given Grade; something that, in my experience, does not happen in the Services. So, I can name C2s who have managed both £100M projects and 200 staff, but I can also name far more senior management in DPA who would s*** themselves at the thought of such responsibility.
Is it not ironic that the two most significant threads on this forum (Mull & C130 ESF) point their fingers, fairly and squarely, at senior RAF officers?
The inference then is that many here have a downer on both Service and Civilian personnel. No favouritism then!
The inference then is that many here have a downer on both Service and Civilian personnel. No favouritism then!
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C2 £20821 £28702
E1 £13024 £19817
Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.
E1 £13024 £19817
Here’s a thought. The grade (C2) who, as a project manager, may be responsible for £100M projects and the airworthiness of your kit, or manage 200 staff in a workshop (read the Treasury approved Grade descriptions), can earn the grand sum of £1004 per annum more than the grade (E1) who, typically, may do the office filing.
Not arguing any point here, just think our underpaid service men deserve some serious respect.
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Hardly had the attention span to read all the posts carefully; but......no-one gets conscripted into either org, so if you want to be in the mil - join it; and if you want to be in the CS do likewise. Standard rules apply - if you don't like the job you've got (due to pay, conditions, what other people you work with get paid etc etc), get another one?
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I take it you disagree with FRI then? You think market forces should apply to the military? Even if we are left with a shortage of soldiers and pilots?
Just wondered, it's not as if we are at war or anything.
Just wondered, it's not as if we are at war or anything.