Moved from Wounded Para thread:

Slightly off thread but to highlight Beagles point about the state of the Armed Forces.

I have an Army mate who has just arrived in the sand to do 6 months in a Staff type post. He is in charge of 12 civilians who are engaged in the 'infrastructure' side of life. Due to the nature of the work he has, for the first time in his career, been assigned his own personal clerk. A Civil Servant from the lower grades. This young chap is on £350.00 per day, TAX FREE, plus amassing loads of time off when he returns.

I think the time has come for our leadership to stand and be counted. This lad, and good luck to him, has a powerful Union/Lobby behind him, hence his package. We, on the other hand, are still suffering from the Grin and Bear it days of yore. Enough is enough.

In a cost cutting measure, my mate says thay have hired Bangladeshi's to do the catering. As these people do not know the difference between a p!ss pot and a washing up pot (and yes, I speak from experience so put your PC swords away), said friend has had the runs for just over a week now, along with a lot of others.

Finally, the man in charge of the Army says they are coping. My mate is in the RA. He got snaffled for this desk job because, see if you can guess, yep, noone else available.

I would imagine that if the hygiene is that bad it is perfectly possible that all the troops serving in the war zone and paying income tax, council tax,car tax and tv license could actually go sick. For, say 2 or 3 days?? :E :

" A Civil Servant from the lower grades. This young chap is on £350.00 per day, TAX FREE, plus amassing loads of time off when he returns."

TOTAL UTTER CR*P

No civil servant to my knowledge (and I say this as one who did 6 months in the sandpit as a CS) is on tax free salary. Furthermore, I'd have dreamed of being on £350 per day.

If this guy is an admin clerk, then the very best rate he's on - including all his overseas allowances, its going to be less than £200 per day.Realistically it'll be less than £150.

The CS (read MOD) deploy civillians into theatre, and yes the pay package is enhanced - BUT - as a salutary note, civillians are on average about 30-50% underpaid compared to their military equivalent grades back in the UK. The extra pay is a hardship allowance (much like X factor) and overtime to reflect the extra hours worked (and this isn't as much cash as you might think).

Put in context, in my office in London which has a lot of C1 and C2's in (SO2 & SO1 types), the highest paid guy is our Army corporal.

Like you said 'to your knowledge'!!

Even 150 pounds a day is a disgrace. Much more than the servicemen and women who endure far more hardship than this lot. As to less pay in the UK, there might be a reason for that............37 hour week, flexi time, weekends, Bank Holidays off, Xmas and New year...and so on.

Tried to get some of ours to do a couple of evenings last year. Gave up after the bleating, time off for stress, Union consultation, rule books, line managers and threats!! :*

"Even 150 pounds a day is a disgrace. Much more than the servicemen and women who endure far more hardship than this lot. As to less pay in the UK, there might be a reason for that............37 hour week, flexi time, weekends, Bank Holidays off, Xmas and New year...and so on."

Just spent ages typing an explanation which PPRUNE promptly lost. Bottom line

Typical CS will earn about £13k extra for a 6 month trip, taking average salary to just over £30k per year. This is far less than the majority of troops in theatre who earn an awful lot with their allowances and package. The average deployed "D" grade (SO3) will earn about as much as a corporal in theatre.

CS's in BAS and Shaiba have the same level of risk as pretty much all the RAF types in BAS, living in same corrimecs/tents, eating same food and the same chance of being hit by a raghead cnut lobbing IDF into the compound. Also most CS's need to fly and go on the road a lot outside the wire, so are exposed to a high level of risk.

All CS's volunteer to deploy, and frankly I think its a seriously cheap shot to call paying someone who volunteered to put themselves into a warzone £150 per day a "disgrace". You may have a big chip on your shoulder about CS's but don't let that detract from the fact that an awful lot have been to the sandpit and been exposed to the same risk as you and for probably a lot less money.

Layoff the whining about the CS terms and conditions, its part of the job. Bearing in mind how often I've heard certain RAF types (admitedly mostly movers) cite crew rest, or need for sleep or need to get home to see family at lunchtime on fridays, and then come in late on Mondays - frankly I wish I had the same easy life as your average RAF type.

Jimlad
Your comments beggar belief!
I know several hundred airmen ( I suspect there are many more soldiers too)that would love an extra 13K for six months in the pit, personally I'd be 52K better of and I'm a smallie in the desert stakes!

As for your wild swipe at the RAF, that will make us all take you much more seriously:ugh:

My point is not that the CS are picking up the extra 13K but the fact that the CS pay is only going up to bring it to the same level as the more junior squaddies in theatre. I fail to understand why the RAF have such an issue with that? Are you so arrogant that you think that only the "uber race" should be allowed in theatre?

Having spent plenty of time in and out ofuniform being shafted by Jobsworth RAF types (dare I say the magic word "mover"), frankly I stand by my comments.

Pay scales Apr 2006

Sergeant

Level 7 90.18 32,915 83.30 30,404
Level 6 88.52 32,309 82.67 30,174
Level 5 86.86 31,703 79.91 29,167
Level 4 85.20 31,098 77.88 28,426
Level 3 84.14 30,711 77.10 28,141
Level 2 82.06 29,951 75.21 27,451
Level 1 79.99 29,196 73.29 26,750
RANGE 2
Corporal

Level 7 81.03 29,575 72.87 26,697
Level 6 79.30 28,944 72.34 26,404
Level 5 77.69 28,356 71.77 26,196
Level 4 75.86 27,688 71.21 25,991
Level 3 74.13 27,057 70.67 25,794
Level 2 70.67 25,794 67.38 24,593
Level 1 67.38 24,593 64.48 23,535
RANGE 1
Lance Corporal
Levels 5-9 only


Private
Levels 1-7 only

Level 9 70.67 25,794 59.17 21,597
Level 8 67.38 24,593 57.10 20,841
Level 7 64.48 23,535 54.60 19,929
Level 6 61.65 22,502 52.36 19,111
Level 5 58.79 21,458 50.26 18,344
Level 4 53.17 19,407 47.69 17,406
Level 3 49.45 18,049 43.85 16,005
Level 2 44.79 16,348 41.55 15,165
Level 1 39.24 14,322 39.24 14,322
New Entrant Rate

33.32 12,161

Thats a basic pay chart - does that include X-Factor?
Also bear in mind that when on deployments a lot of allowances kick in, boosting pay, as does trade pay or specialist pay. I know of very few guys in the forces who only get the basic pay band. Add in fun things like boarding school allowances, missed meal allowances, free travel in London, subsidised accommodation, an excellent pension/gratuity etc and the packages value adds up considerably.

CS do not recieve X factor, are only paid for days worked and as such need a salary boost when deployed to compensate for the change in working conditions. Seems fair to me - I can imagine the screams of protest were the MOD to do away with X Factor for personnel who deploy.

Jimlad

Thankfully PPRUNE has a system which allows me to ignore moronic posts and posters.

Goodbye!:}

Jimlad, would you care to post the CS pay scales please. Remember a lot of the casualties have been very young squaddies earning around £1000 per month after tax. Someone please provide the additional pay for service abroad. When I served it was around £5 per day, taxed. You should tread very carefully with your argument to be honest I think it sucks.

PS If you don't post the scales I will.

As you said, you should know the system ("Having spent plenty of time in and out of uniform"), so you should know that X Factor is included in all pay scales as a matter of course, and that "trade pay" or "specialist pay" is a misnomer unless you are actually doing a specialist job. You have also managed to forget about the allowances that the CS get - relocation packages, education allowances, assistance with travel, loans for bicycles, loans for season tickets, etc. The CS are NOT paid for days worked, they are paid an annual salary. You are also part of a pension scheme. Why would the MOD do away with X Factor for people who deploy? Stupid statement. Nice to see that the politicos are looking at a change in the Income Tax rules for deployed personnel. The CS are poorly paid, but you get what you pay for - we should know as we are on the receiving end of the monkey-on-the-typewriter on far too many occasions.

Let me guess, judging by your in depth knowledge of the system, and in keeping with the ususal CS competentices, you work in SP Pol with responsibility for Pay and Allowances?

You know what I dislike about the Civil Service? You could fire 100,000 of them tomorrow and the likes of you and I would not even notice. If you fired 100,000 troops tomorrow, British foreign policy would be on its knees.

Civil Service pay scales as promised. Oh, you need to add on £150 per day tax free.

EO Standard Scale

27,017 - 28,994 - 30,510 - 31,981 - 33,444 - 34,875 - 36,320 - 37,727 - 39,176 - 40,141 - 41,5071 - 42,8722

EO Higher Scale

27,017 - 28,994 - 30,510 - 31,981 - 33,444 - 34,875 - 36,320 - 37,727 - 39,176 - 40,141 - 41,507 - 42,522 - 43,540 - 44,555

Staff Officer

30,884 - 32,231 - 33,446 - 34,538 - 35,636 - 36,739 - 37,849 - 38,911 - 39,9221 - 41,2372

Clerical Officer Standard Scale

20,483 - 21,438 - 22,396 - 23,353 - 24,308 - 25,266 - 26,221 - 27,178 - 28,132 - 29,088 - 30,038 - 31,519 - 32,6831 - 33,2192

Clerical Officer Higher Scale

21,438 - 22,396 - 23,353 - 24,308 - 25,266 - 26,221 - 27,178 - 28,132 - 29,088 - 30,038 - 31,519 - 32,683 - 33,219 (636.62) - 33,938

Jimlad1

If you are the same Jimlad that I met last year, you are Wavy Navy! Right?

If so, I would lay off your comments about Friday afternoon/Monday morning absence since the RN have been practising it in London and elsewhere remote from Pompey and Plymouth since Nelson's days!!!!!!

Foldy

Yes, but then you should know that!!
Depends where you are deployed to, some do, some don't.
Incorrect. Specialist pay is paid to............specialists. Not everyone is a specialist.
You must frequent a very narrow circle. The majority of service personnel do not get specialist pay.
Only if you a. have children and b. wish to send them (for good reason) to boarding school
which compensates you for the meal you have paid for at base but....er, missed!
Subsidised maybe, but not free. All serviceman pay a contribution towards their travel, if you chose to live a long way from where you work that is your choice. We do not get a choice of being posted into London, therefore we are compensated for travelling - just as many civilian firms do.
Again not subsidised. Cheap maybe, but not subsidised and certainly courtesy of New Liarbour now getting not that cheap!!
Actually not that great in comparison to civil industry and certainly poor in comparison to the (senior) civil service
Because you are not expected to deploy or move on a regular basis, and when you do the Civil Service compensate you for doing so.
Not many companies pay you for days not worked. The only reason the armed forces are paid 7 days a week is because we often do work 7 days per week!!! Seems fair to get paid for it
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. That is what the x-factor is there for!!:mad:

The pay charts do include the X-factor. Me, bottom Cpl is my pay grade.

these are compensatory allowances set by the FCO. They apply in similar measure military and CS = zero sum.

CS get overtime, on call allowance, specialist pay etc - zero sum

True but then you are expected to move from one end of the country to the other at all pay grades. CS mobility applies to Ds and above. zero sum?

CS uncapped actuals, free travel in London if visiting, subsidised accommodation because they don't necssarily want to live where they are posted. CS get same pension/gratuity albeit on a lower pay basis but that lower pay basis is on a 37 hour week not a 7-day open ended committment. CS get a better relocation package. zero sum.

Seems fair to me. Agree.

CS also get 80% allowance for courses and up to 100% in some cases. Servicemen get 20%. CS get a bonus on completion of recognised courses. Servicemen (ranks only) can get a bonus pay rise.

In short, horses for courses and CS deployed overseas certainly desrve more than their heath loving brethern but don't begrudge the servicemans' perks; many CS perks are much better.

Roland, I got sidetracked while writing. I see we have said much the same thing :).

A bit of history.

Prior to 1970, we who then served were paid what amounted to "pocket money," with single personnel getting free messing and barrack accommodation, and married personnel being allocated free married accommodation, and "marriage allowance."

Then, in 1970 the "Military Salary" was introduced and we were placed on the same footing as a nominal "basket" of equivalent civilian occupations. Within ranks and grades we all earned the same rate and paid for our accommodation and messing. The "X-factor" payment was an additional sum intended to compensate for the difference between civilian and military working conditions.

At the time it was introduced, X-Factor was 10% of the basic military salary. Taking the difference between the military working conditions in 1970 and today, the X-Factor might well be as much as 100% (though unfortunately it isn't). That 10% certainly wasn't meant to compensate for the sustained deployments to combat zones such as today's miltary have to endure.

So Jimlad, pray tell us why civilians should get X-Factor.

Gents

My apologies for not responding to your posts on my arguments today. My DII would not let me log in and post on pprune (anyone else have this problem?)

Assuming this thread is still active, I intend to reply in detail to the points raised when time permits tomorrow evening.

Five main issues:

1 - I have no idea who I am supposed to have met last year - you've got me mixed up methinks!

2 - Contrary to what some here think - I'm not advocating that CS get X-Factor. I am pointing out that when deployed CS receive a salary boost called ODA which functions in a similar manner to X Factor for the duration of the deployment. A significant and critical difference.

3 - My use of the phrase specialist pay was innacurate - I meant to use allowances - forgive my poor terminology. I will discuss in detail later.

4 - Query re pay table - serious query as in the AFPRB reports they produce tables showing pay both with and without X-Factor. As its some time since I last looked at Non Commissioned pay (no normal need to), I genuinely could not tell which chart was being put up.

5- If someone can show me how to get round DII log ins, then happy to post CS pay tables. If not PM me.

Please bear with me one last time while I attack Jimlad1 and his knob comments about the RAF!

My apologies Jimlad1; you cannot be the guy I met last year:
I have just realised that, at 26, you could not have been the Wavy Navy guy I met last year.

So, if you are 26, and have had such an adventurous life already can you explain how that might be for someone of such a tender age? Cadets? University OTU/UAS/RNR? Chopped from the military? How much real service have you actually done?

Right, I'm done! Thanks for your time, Chaps!

He was a boy soldier in Rwanda at the age of 3,
Gained the rank of kiddy captain at the age of 8,
Led the peoples front of Judea in the battle of Bury Park, Luton at 12 and 3/4,
Was picked out for SC training at 16 but failed cause he couldnt learn how to shave,
....................oh god even I'm bored of reading my post now.......can't type....another.......wor