RAF "Utterly, Utterly, Useless" in Afghanistan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Twopack is right, you are a simpleton. Ignoramus is another good one.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Harriers had a large number of gun pods built for the Aden 25 but it was never a success. When there was a tried and tested American gun available it's beyond comprehension why they even tried! As for the Harrier - do you really want to be at low level firing a cannon when they can quite happily return fire at you! Far better to have an element of safety and use rockets and bombs.
Are cluster bombs still available, or have they been withdrawn at the behest of the bleeding hearts? If you believe Kippling, humanitarian concerns are scarce amongst the tribesmen/women in AFghanistan.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Back in the USSR
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Secondly, isn't it past your bedtime?
CC
Originally Posted by NRDK
Obviously the rest of you didn’t send that letter to Des Browne asking for the RAF SAR to get those Helicopters & crews out there…?
What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??
Obviously the rest of you didn’t send that letter to Des Browne asking for the RAF SAR to get those Helicopters & crews out there…?
What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO this thread is missing the point. There's far too much debate on whether this Major was right to put his views into emails and not nearly enough on why he should hold these views in the first place. The real question is, what are the RAF doing wrong to make him feel they are "utterly, utterly useless" and what are USAF doing right for him to feel they're "fantastic", and what should be changed to make him feel that the RAF are "fantastic" too.
This guy is on the ground, leading troops, in daily contact with the enemy. He's entitled to his opinions. The question is, how does the RAF change them?
This guy is on the ground, leading troops, in daily contact with the enemy. He's entitled to his opinions. The question is, how does the RAF change them?
Can anyone say whether cluster bombs are still avilable? When I did AWC they were the weapon of choice in tight defensive situations. I suppose they have been withdrawn on humanitarian grounds - although, if you read Kippling, mercy is a scarce commodity amongst the tribesmen/women of Afghanistan.
Perhaps a joint commission of enquiry could sort out the facts from the bigotry and lance this boil before it festers. I must say the RAF's restraint so far has been exemplary (or are we to expect leaks of blistering light blue emails?)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flatus - The Harrier GR.5 was designed for attacking Soviet tanks on the European plains. The gun whilst desirable for that role didn't really stop the game. The current situation in Afghanistan is very similar to events in Vietnam. Effectively lightly armed groups which can harrass our forces quite effectively and tie down large numbers of troops just to defend our positions.
Now by all means you can deploy weapons designed to destroy tanks but when the enemy is a matter of yards away it's not really sensible.
A gunpod could be added to the Harrier but you are still in the position of a pilot sat in a carbon fibre cockpit at low level - hardly desirable!
If we are going to engage in these ventures abroad it's really time we had a long and sensible look at what we operate.
Now by all means you can deploy weapons designed to destroy tanks but when the enemy is a matter of yards away it's not really sensible.
A gunpod could be added to the Harrier but you are still in the position of a pilot sat in a carbon fibre cockpit at low level - hardly desirable!
If we are going to engage in these ventures abroad it's really time we had a long and sensible look at what we operate.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: 'An Airfield Somewhere in England'
Posts: 1,094
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During my time in the RAF, there was an almost universal body of opinion which said, 'The Yanks are dorks and the Brits really know what they are doing'. I initially believed it, but as the years went by I felt more and more ill at ease about that view. I came to see that the big difference between the Britis and the Yanks is that the Brits often live in unreality about their mistakes and capabilities, whereas the Yanks are very open about them. Add into the melting pot a slightly superior attitude that can be found in British military circles when dealing with anything American, then you have a recipe for disaster.
In my own Service, we found Senior Officers who decided to remove cannons from both the new Harrier and the Eurofighter, despite the fact that nearly every American fast jet since the war has had them. What do the Americans know after all? Then who would have believed it - the Americans were right and we do need the capability to fire heavy calibre cannons onto targets in a war we never planned for. We now have the wrong aircraft with the wrong weaponry fighting in a war that no one ever believed would happen. Similarly, in the army, when all US infantrymen (in all their various guises) are issued with night vision devices, body armour, guns that work etc, the Brits who know so much more have not bothered to acquire enough of the right equipment and now find themselves stuffed. We are making all the same mistakes in Afghanistan the Russians did before us. A shortage of helicopters, food, weapons, ammunition, manpower and ideas is crippling us.
In short, there is a shameful arrogance about much of British military thinking that took me in for years. The Americans know nothing and can tell us nothing about weaponry and equipment and certainly know nothing about tactics. I suddenly woke up and saw just how good the Americans are - not perfect but very good nonetheless. I am under no illusion about American military failings as they make no attempt to hide when things go wrong. The facts are, however, that they are better briefed, better trained, better equipped and better supported than their British counterparts. I am British to the depths of my being but I am heartily sick of wooden-headed foolishness displayed by Senior Officers in all branches of the UK Armed Services when it comes to learning from the Americans. This foolishness and arrogance, which runs from top to bottom, has caused an ill-equipped and under-supported force to war in Afghanstan. This force may yet face a fourth great British disaster there if we are not very careful (get into your history books and read about the first three if you want a real fright).
I back our troops 100% and am willing them to stuff the Taleban. This is a war that we must fight and we simply must win. Talk of withdrawal here is only from people who have no grasp of the dangers posed by a resrugent Taleban to the world community. Let us have the humility to learn from the Americans who have much to teach us, and then let us get out there and win this war for future generations.
In my own Service, we found Senior Officers who decided to remove cannons from both the new Harrier and the Eurofighter, despite the fact that nearly every American fast jet since the war has had them. What do the Americans know after all? Then who would have believed it - the Americans were right and we do need the capability to fire heavy calibre cannons onto targets in a war we never planned for. We now have the wrong aircraft with the wrong weaponry fighting in a war that no one ever believed would happen. Similarly, in the army, when all US infantrymen (in all their various guises) are issued with night vision devices, body armour, guns that work etc, the Brits who know so much more have not bothered to acquire enough of the right equipment and now find themselves stuffed. We are making all the same mistakes in Afghanistan the Russians did before us. A shortage of helicopters, food, weapons, ammunition, manpower and ideas is crippling us.
In short, there is a shameful arrogance about much of British military thinking that took me in for years. The Americans know nothing and can tell us nothing about weaponry and equipment and certainly know nothing about tactics. I suddenly woke up and saw just how good the Americans are - not perfect but very good nonetheless. I am under no illusion about American military failings as they make no attempt to hide when things go wrong. The facts are, however, that they are better briefed, better trained, better equipped and better supported than their British counterparts. I am British to the depths of my being but I am heartily sick of wooden-headed foolishness displayed by Senior Officers in all branches of the UK Armed Services when it comes to learning from the Americans. This foolishness and arrogance, which runs from top to bottom, has caused an ill-equipped and under-supported force to war in Afghanstan. This force may yet face a fourth great British disaster there if we are not very careful (get into your history books and read about the first three if you want a real fright).
I back our troops 100% and am willing them to stuff the Taleban. This is a war that we must fight and we simply must win. Talk of withdrawal here is only from people who have no grasp of the dangers posed by a resrugent Taleban to the world community. Let us have the humility to learn from the Americans who have much to teach us, and then let us get out there and win this war for future generations.
Last edited by Norman Stanley Fletcher; 24th Sep 2006 at 00:02.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, the harrier has no gun! Are the CRV 7 warheads suitable for the task anyway? Feel free not to reply in public but if anyone would care to answer by PM, opsec permitting of course.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: England
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by NRDK
"What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??"
Can I add myself to the growing list of those who think that NRDK is not just a nob but a
as well? In answer to his question, the rest of us are either training up the next lot to spend months away in Kandahar, or refreshing skills not used out there. Moron.
"What are all those other RAF Jets and Helo’s cruising about the UK country side doing whilst the soldiers abroad are engaged in mortal combat daily??"
Can I add myself to the growing list of those who think that NRDK is not just a nob but a
as well? In answer to his question, the rest of us are either training up the next lot to spend months away in Kandahar, or refreshing skills not used out there. Moron.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 477
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norman - the reality is that some American fighters have been gunless. Indeed during the Vietnam War some Phantoms missed out on kills because of the unreliability of their missiles and not having a cannon.
It's great to think that adding a gun to a Harrier would transform it but the truth is that it's extra weight and the Harrier is vunerable to ground fire.
Witness the losses in the Falklands War and low level in a hostile environment of is not where you want to be.
It's great to think that adding a gun to a Harrier would transform it but the truth is that it's extra weight and the Harrier is vunerable to ground fire.
Witness the losses in the Falklands War and low level in a hostile environment of is not where you want to be.
Guest
Posts: n/a
EXACTLY! That's why we don't/won't build another without an internal gun. Missiles are great, but when it get's in close, whether air to air or air to ground, nothing beats a gun.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the dark
Posts: 391
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NSF,
Their certainly is an arrogance amongst the British military, I have seen it first hand. Sadly this has lead to many deaths, and RAF aircraft flying in hot spots with little, or no DAS.
Their certainly is an arrogance amongst the British military, I have seen it first hand. Sadly this has lead to many deaths, and RAF aircraft flying in hot spots with little, or no DAS.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said NSF
Nicely said my man....This farce causing the unnecessary deaths of British servicemen seemingly boils down to two things afflicting the 'top brass and our political masters' 1. Ostrich syndrome and 2. 'WW1 Okay chaps over the top mentality'.
Bloody glad I left.
Bloody glad I left.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets be frank! The government have sold us all short by not supplying enough manpower or the necessary equipment to provide proper round the clock back up. We belong to an armed Forces that revolves around backing by the Americans whom without we really don't have much of a stick. How useful are those trident submarines for instance?
We are all guilty of moaning from time to time, goodness, the british Army thrives on it.
Whats gone on here is a moan that should be taken as a dig at the system rather than the Air Force, I for one would rather see an A10 coming over the horizon if I was in a platoon house than a Harrier with a stick of rockets.
However if travelling in a warrior during either Gulf War I would rather have seen an RAF Harrier than A10.
I don't blame anyone in the mob as we all of us get on as best we can with the kit given to us. I do dispair at the Government for giving us more and more work and less and less money to buy the right equipment.
We are all guilty of moaning from time to time, goodness, the british Army thrives on it.
Whats gone on here is a moan that should be taken as a dig at the system rather than the Air Force, I for one would rather see an A10 coming over the horizon if I was in a platoon house than a Harrier with a stick of rockets.
However if travelling in a warrior during either Gulf War I would rather have seen an RAF Harrier than A10.
I don't blame anyone in the mob as we all of us get on as best we can with the kit given to us. I do dispair at the Government for giving us more and more work and less and less money to buy the right equipment.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
I don't think the British Military are guilty of arrogance as such, but they have developed a mentality of spending more time and effort figuring out how to overcome their own equipment and manning shortfalls, instead of doing the real job. If they want to bomb something, they have to consider how they achieve that using fewer assets that are not necessarily the right type of assets, exploiting the limitations of the logistics chain, and using the limited personnel in a manner where they all stay sharp and motivated. The Americans planning is X amount of Ordnance, this Grid Square, these platforms, that time, repeat as necessary, job done. Maybe over simplistic, but the Americans deal with the real operational issues, and are not distracted by figuring out how to make an underfunded and overstretched system work. Quantity has a quality all of its own. This is not only a failing of Government by the way, but a failure of Senior Military Leadership in accepting these treasury led initiatives that can be measured quite simply in extra body bags coming home.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Age: 50
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lets face it we have a society in the UK that is being pushed by the liberal tree hugging minority into being ashamed of or UK history and the part that the military has played in it.
There will never be adequate spending on equipment when the nation is more concerned in Ashley Cole holding out for £90,000 a week, when funding is being spent on stopping Irish Farmers and drug dealer from shooting each other, £100K is being spent on keeping Ian Huntley alive and prisoners get three hot meals a day.
We have a society that should hold its head in shame and a procurement system that is a disgusting waste of money.
Until the MoD hires some proper contract writers, they are going to continually get ripped off by companies and people are going to get rich at the expense of our lives.
Much of our equipment is poor and not upto the task, we are getting a bloody nose from $10 taliban with RPGs and a pair of sandles. To the public this is a world away, July 7th was not a wake-up call the government wanted, it has back-fired and people would rather be out of the middle east.
No wonder a Major in contact is disillusioned, the nation is as well (Those who have noticed that this war is going on), it is just a shame the media have picked up on "RAF Utte......".
I bet he is absolutely devistated by what is going on over this leaked e-mail.
There will never be adequate spending on equipment when the nation is more concerned in Ashley Cole holding out for £90,000 a week, when funding is being spent on stopping Irish Farmers and drug dealer from shooting each other, £100K is being spent on keeping Ian Huntley alive and prisoners get three hot meals a day.
We have a society that should hold its head in shame and a procurement system that is a disgusting waste of money.
Until the MoD hires some proper contract writers, they are going to continually get ripped off by companies and people are going to get rich at the expense of our lives.
Much of our equipment is poor and not upto the task, we are getting a bloody nose from $10 taliban with RPGs and a pair of sandles. To the public this is a world away, July 7th was not a wake-up call the government wanted, it has back-fired and people would rather be out of the middle east.
No wonder a Major in contact is disillusioned, the nation is as well (Those who have noticed that this war is going on), it is just a shame the media have picked up on "RAF Utte......".
I bet he is absolutely devistated by what is going on over this leaked e-mail.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suspect that the only legitimate bitch from the army major is the effectiveness of CAS when he gets it. In that respect it is not surprising that he perceives a difference between the RAF and the USAF. You just have to look at the equipment procured for this role by the different schools of thought to understand how hard they found it to choose the right solution. The RAF chose a V/STOVL with high wing loading, bombs or rockets and slow rate of fire cannon (since abandoned), the USAF chose a straight wing jet with low wing loading, slow speed, titanium bathtub cockpit, bombs or rockets, high rate of fire gatling gun and most armies chose an attack helicopter. Those choices could hardly be more diverse.
I concur with Norman Stanley Fletcher that we do tend to treat US inventory items as ‘not invented here’. I know that when I returned from an exchange tour with first hand experience of our transatlantic cousins’ solutions to the Vietnam war and a whole arsenal of combat-validated tactics, the RAF just did not want to know. We didn’t even want to examine the lessons of the Falklands war – “It was a victory, you know. Let’s not dwell on the negatives”. Those who fail to learn the lessons from history are destined to make the same mistakes.
I concur with Norman Stanley Fletcher that we do tend to treat US inventory items as ‘not invented here’. I know that when I returned from an exchange tour with first hand experience of our transatlantic cousins’ solutions to the Vietnam war and a whole arsenal of combat-validated tactics, the RAF just did not want to know. We didn’t even want to examine the lessons of the Falklands war – “It was a victory, you know. Let’s not dwell on the negatives”. Those who fail to learn the lessons from history are destined to make the same mistakes.