Nimrod crash in Afghanistan Tech/Info/Discussion (NOT condolences)
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I hate to speculate, but I'm going to. Should the impending inquiry find that this accident has its routes in a Kapton wiring arc, as Art Stacey's incident did in May 1995, then it will surely become imperative, regardless of cost, to replace the wiring in our aging fleets, or replace the fleets. Three of the four major military establishments in the USA started replacing Kapton in the late 90s and there is evidence of over 300 Kapton related accidents/incidents readily available to research on the net. Our government were taking an interest in Kapton wiring by 1999, as can be seen here: http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/91209w01.htm
Should Kapton be the cause in this case then I expect the repercussions to be substantial. In the meantime I feel desperately for the families and friends and hope you all get the answers you need, and soon.
With apologies to those who hate the speculation.
Should Kapton be the cause in this case then I expect the repercussions to be substantial. In the meantime I feel desperately for the families and friends and hope you all get the answers you need, and soon.
With apologies to those who hate the speculation.
Last edited by D-IFF_ident; 4th Sep 2006 at 19:28. Reason: Granma
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D-IFF Ident
I don't think you are correct about Art's bit of magic old bean. As I recall, his aircraft had a starter motor problem, in that it wouldn't stop! and eventually caught fire. The rest is history.
I will refrain from speculating, its just not worth it under the circumstances and frankly, anyone who knows anything about the MR2 will know that it could have been one of a number of things thast went wrong. Although I do understand the need for folks to talk openly about what might have happened, I think it best that we leave it to the experts to come up with the facts.
Kind regards to all
TSM
I don't think you are correct about Art's bit of magic old bean. As I recall, his aircraft had a starter motor problem, in that it wouldn't stop! and eventually caught fire. The rest is history.
I will refrain from speculating, its just not worth it under the circumstances and frankly, anyone who knows anything about the MR2 will know that it could have been one of a number of things thast went wrong. Although I do understand the need for folks to talk openly about what might have happened, I think it best that we leave it to the experts to come up with the facts.
Kind regards to all
TSM
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You're both half right.
A chaffing wire short-circuited causing the Air Start Valve to open, spinning up the Starter Motor to self destruction, the turbine shooting through a fuel tank. Not Krapton though.
A chaffing wire short-circuited causing the Air Start Valve to open, spinning up the Starter Motor to self destruction, the turbine shooting through a fuel tank. Not Krapton though.
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The CDS has also confirmed that the crew reported a technical problem, connected with a fire, just after refuelling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5314358.stm
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Accident Reports
I imagine most of you that are posting on here have access to the defence intranet, so instead of speculating (guessing) about previous accident causes, why not read the reports. They ara available back to 1992 on the Strike website.
They should be compulsory reading for all involved in aviation safety ! Read the report on XW666, yes you're right about the short circuit, yes you're right about the retaining nut failing, but read it more deeply, and look for the management failings. Known problem from 20 years previously, not sorted !
Safety_Helmut
They should be compulsory reading for all involved in aviation safety ! Read the report on XW666, yes you're right about the short circuit, yes you're right about the retaining nut failing, but read it more deeply, and look for the management failings. Known problem from 20 years previously, not sorted !
Safety_Helmut
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Sir Peter's Lovechild, BTW, love the name. Did you ever meet daddy?
Met him once incognito. He had a black beard as disquise. As a 2* friend commented, he now looked just like Sir Peter Harding with beard.
Met him once incognito. He had a black beard as disquise. As a 2* friend commented, he now looked just like Sir Peter Harding with beard.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Yes and he had the look of a rabbit caught on a dark night staring into the headlights of an oncoming truck! Why do we supposes that is?
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"Onboard fire" could as easily be an official fib as an accurate description of what actually happenend. The MoD and Govt would be most reluctant to admit to a shootdown until it becomes impossible to prevent the knowledge getting out, not least to prevent the inevitable triumphalism of the baddies, and the result of a missile (be it rocket, lucky shell or whatever) strike would very likely result in an "onboard fire" so its not so far from the truth either way.
Anyway, I suppose it was a MR2, and not, well, another sort of Nimrod?
They surely wouldn't want to admit losing one of those out in wild n' woolly land, with the bits strewn all over the countryside...
Anyway, I suppose it was a MR2, and not, well, another sort of Nimrod?
They surely wouldn't want to admit losing one of those out in wild n' woolly land, with the bits strewn all over the countryside...
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Slightly off thread, but PontiusNavigator cited the Buccaneer as having had catastrophic failures. News to me, I recall the Bucc as an aeroplane we could fly through a building and out the other side.
I, too, am most intrigued by the emphatic nature of the statements emenating from MoD that it was a technical malfunction. The Secretary of State may not know about accident investigation procedures (although he should) but he has advisers who must surely have briefed him before he issued his comment.
It's thirty years since I last wore light blue, but this still hurts like hell.
I, too, am most intrigued by the emphatic nature of the statements emenating from MoD that it was a technical malfunction. The Secretary of State may not know about accident investigation procedures (although he should) but he has advisers who must surely have briefed him before he issued his comment.
It's thirty years since I last wore light blue, but this still hurts like hell.
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Fleet was grounded and almost scrapped at the time. Eventually checks were done and the safe-to-transit clearance was given for the sqn to return via Laejes.
<< http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avbucc.html
However, during the 1980 Red Flag exercises one of the Buccaneers lost a wing and crashed, killing its crew. The cause of the accident was fatigue in the front wing spar, and the entire Buccaneer force was grounded and inspected. Some were repaired while others were condemned and scrapped, and due to this attrition one Buccaneer squadron was disbanded.>>
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I absolutely agree with pirate. In most of my time in the RAF no speculative comment was ever offered at the time of an aircraft crash. Sure the press speculated in some cases but the military was exemplary in refusing to speculate. Now we appear to have the spinning machine in full throttle. The Hercules crash last year was initially described as an accident. The Hercules that perished this year on a strip in Afg was described as having suffered a tyre failure, despite the crater in the strip. Now we have Browne ruling out enemy action after this Nimrod tragedy.
Why have our leaders allowed the politicians to muscle in on air accident investigation territory?
Why have our leaders allowed the politicians to muscle in on air accident investigation territory?
Agaricus bisporus
"Anyway, I suppose it was a MR2, and not, well, another sort of Nimrod? They surely wouldn't want to admit losing one of those out in wild n' woolly land, with the bits strewn all over the countryside..."
Thank goodness it wasn't one of the other sort, as you'd then have double the number of sets of grieving relatives.
"Anyway, I suppose it was a MR2, and not, well, another sort of Nimrod? They surely wouldn't want to admit losing one of those out in wild n' woolly land, with the bits strewn all over the countryside..."
Thank goodness it wasn't one of the other sort, as you'd then have double the number of sets of grieving relatives.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/5315524.stm
Reading this BBC News bulletin that a fire had been reported post in air refuelling, what took my attention was the mention of a black box.
I thought Royal Air Force a/c didn't have black boxes, or is this over simplifying the case?
Reading this BBC News bulletin that a fire had been reported post in air refuelling, what took my attention was the mention of a black box.
I thought Royal Air Force a/c didn't have black boxes, or is this over simplifying the case?
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Daily Telegraph, 4 September 2006
"Flames were coming from the tail," said Niaz Mohammed Sarhadi, the district chief of Panj-wayi. "It was flying very high, maybe 10,000ft. As it fell there were flares from both sides." The Taliban spokesman, Abdul Khaliq, claimed the plane had been brought down by a Stinger missile. But Mr Browne told BBC1's Sunday AM: "The Taliban regularly lie in response to events in Afghanistan.
"Flames were coming from the tail," said Niaz Mohammed Sarhadi, the district chief of Panj-wayi. "It was flying very high, maybe 10,000ft. As it fell there were flares from both sides." The Taliban spokesman, Abdul Khaliq, claimed the plane had been brought down by a Stinger missile. But Mr Browne told BBC1's Sunday AM: "The Taliban regularly lie in response to events in Afghanistan.
Hence the cover story.
With Special Forces people on board it is likely the aircraft could have been operating at any height. Afghani reports say the aircraft was high 10,000ft (see quote above)That is within the range of a Stinger missile. The flares could have been trying to decoy a number of missiles being fired by the Taliban.
Latest reports say the Nimrod had just refuelled. Why is this piece of information suddenly added ?
Last edited by AgentSmithMatrix; 5th Sep 2006 at 12:02. Reason: enter quotes
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Flight Recorders
Several RAF aircraft carry flight recorders. However, as befits their generation, some of these are basic by modern standards and are not going to give the Microsoft Flight Sim solution that you'll get on the latest Airbus, for example. I've often milked the recorders post-flight, normally to get more info on a crew reported snag.
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Mud movers have them, not sure about the mighty hunter though. Can anyone clarify?