Dual Citizenship....and dying for your country??
SZT,
As a Lebanese in the French military....if you find yourself deployed in an International Force under the UN to Lebanon with the mission to protect the Israeli Border....where would your loyalty lie? To your family, to Lebanon, to France?
It is a most difficult position you would be in no doubt. Situations like your family are in must remind us of the true cost of war. I pray they remain safe from harm and a rapid resolution of the fighting can be achieved so they can live in peace again.
As a Lebanese in the French military....if you find yourself deployed in an International Force under the UN to Lebanon with the mission to protect the Israeli Border....where would your loyalty lie? To your family, to Lebanon, to France?
It is a most difficult position you would be in no doubt. Situations like your family are in must remind us of the true cost of war. I pray they remain safe from harm and a rapid resolution of the fighting can be achieved so they can live in peace again.
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I don't know if it would be so difficult, as long as I agree with the french position. First of all, this force should be deployed after a cease fire, wich is my very first expectation for the time. Then, France is asking for the return of the prisoners (all of them, Israelis ans Lebanese), and the return of the stolen land. The next stage would be to replace the armed Hezbollah with a well trained Lebanese army. My mission shouldn't be to protect the Israeli border, as you can see, it's already well protected...
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I don't know if it would be so difficult, as long as I agree with the french position.
Don't you see, Sztoggy? You've just made my point perfectly.
You have just made your support for the nation and air force you serve conditional on your agreement with their political position! As a military man you do not have that right or choice. You are obliged to carry out the orders you are given (excepting of course the case of unlawful orders to violate Geneva conventions etc). That is what being in the military is about. If you want to make the political decisions about the position France will adopt, run for office as a politician. Do not do it from the cockpit of a French aircraft.
I can understand why you might feel the way you do - you can't just put aside all feelings for the land of your birth or heritage, and to expect you to do so is simply unrealistic. But my exact point was that holding dual citizenship simply makes these kinds of dilemmas worse. What about if the French and Lebanese positions were to differ, or your French commanders gave you orders which you couldn't support from a Lebanese viewpoint? What would you do then?
In my humble opinion, citizenship is about making a choice. Not just a choice as to where you live or which government pays your pension when you retire. It's a choice as to who you would support when your life and liberty are the issues at stake.
Perhaps my perspective is simplistic - my family's been in Australia since the beginning, so I've never had to make these sorts of choices. But I would really question how you could take the oath of citizenship to one country if you still felt that you had to divide your allegiance between that nation and another.
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The answer is simple. It's not that I bought a second citizenship. I'm really from both countrys in my flesh.
You said that as a military pilot I do not have the right to decide. My answer is that before being a soldier, I'm a man, and if I have a right to take, I'll take it. Sorry
You said that as a military pilot I do not have the right to decide. My answer is that before being a soldier, I'm a man, and if I have a right to take, I'll take it. Sorry
Swing,
The "Robert E. Lee" concept in a way....did he owe his loyalty to the Union or to his home state of Virginia. He chose Virginia and led the Confederate forces against the Union Army.
Loyalty can be a difficult thing to understand.
He saw himself as an American and a Virginian.
The "Robert E. Lee" concept in a way....did he owe his loyalty to the Union or to his home state of Virginia. He chose Virginia and led the Confederate forces against the Union Army.
Loyalty can be a difficult thing to understand.
He saw himself as an American and a Virginian.
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which stolen land Sztoggy?
If you mean Shebaa Farms the UN doesn't reckon it's Lebanon's and therefore has certified Israel as compliant with UNSCR 1559 - so does every map they could find that wasn't forged. See Wikipedia on the subject.
If you mean Shebaa Farms the UN doesn't reckon it's Lebanon's and therefore has certified Israel as compliant with UNSCR 1559 - so does every map they could find that wasn't forged. See Wikipedia on the subject.
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Originally Posted by Sztoggy
The answer is simple. It's not that I bought a second citizenship. I'm really from both countrys in my flesh.
You said that as a military pilot I do not have the right to decide. My answer is that before being a soldier, I'm a man, and if I have a right to take, I'll take it. Sorry
You said that as a military pilot I do not have the right to decide. My answer is that before being a soldier, I'm a man, and if I have a right to take, I'll take it. Sorry
Ah, yes, another fine example of the French military in action....
(I know, the above cheap shot belongs in JetBlast)
Sztoggy, I've been reading with some interest your posts in this thread and the "Soldiers kidnapped" thread. While I can sympathise with the turmoil you are facing with your family in the crossfire, and I am sorry that you are facing it, you are either a loyal member of the French armed services or you are not.
Your private views are one thing, but to intimate that you'd fight for another country while serving France is unprofessional. Whatever your circumstances that brought you to France and to decide to serve her, you made a grown up choice. Are you really stating that should France have a different policy than one you agree with, you'd switch sides?! Nice!
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Well, I'm a bad boy 
Sorry guys, but first of all, I'm a man, with a familly, a past and some feelings. I'm not a brainless soldier ready to die in any circonstances.
I think I'm not stupid, and I've been raised the right manner. For these reasons, I'm confindent with my choices, and remember that in the past, some french soldiers also disobeid, for some good reasons. Don't talk to me like if I was a kind of spy or something. I'll never act against any of my countries, and that's why I'll never excecute anything disturbing to me regarding my dual citizenship. Don't forget that the army knew all my details when I was recruited. Sorry to be disturbing by my honnesty on this forum...
Sorry guys, but first of all, I'm a man, with a familly, a past and some feelings. I'm not a brainless soldier ready to die in any circonstances.
I think I'm not stupid, and I've been raised the right manner. For these reasons, I'm confindent with my choices, and remember that in the past, some french soldiers also disobeid, for some good reasons. Don't talk to me like if I was a kind of spy or something. I'll never act against any of my countries, and that's why I'll never excecute anything disturbing to me regarding my dual citizenship. Don't forget that the army knew all my details when I was recruited. Sorry to be disturbing by my honnesty on this forum...
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This is not a new phenomenon nor is it confined to the Middle East:
1.
Anyone fancy a guess as to what percentage of other ranks in the US armed forces either have dual citizenship or donīt have US citizenship at all...?
2.
Ireland left the Commonwealth and declared itself a Republic in 1948 yet HMG has continued to accept Rep. of Ire. citizens into the ranks.
3.
The Spanish armed forces have, in recent years, been making great efforts to recruit from Latin America. Citizenship is offered in due course but as far as I know, itīs not obligatory to take it.
Iīm sure if I racked my brains a bit I could think of more examples... the fact is that having two passports doesnīt necessarily lead to confusion/divided loyalties and having just one doesnīt necessarily mean that you are bursting with love for and loyalty to that state.
1.
Anyone fancy a guess as to what percentage of other ranks in the US armed forces either have dual citizenship or donīt have US citizenship at all...?
2.
Ireland left the Commonwealth and declared itself a Republic in 1948 yet HMG has continued to accept Rep. of Ire. citizens into the ranks.
3.
The Spanish armed forces have, in recent years, been making great efforts to recruit from Latin America. Citizenship is offered in due course but as far as I know, itīs not obligatory to take it.
Iīm sure if I racked my brains a bit I could think of more examples... the fact is that having two passports doesnīt necessarily lead to confusion/divided loyalties and having just one doesnīt necessarily mean that you are bursting with love for and loyalty to that state.
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US military citizenship policy
When I entered basic training in 1981, during our first week one of the things we were required to do (if US citizens) was formally and legally renounce any and all foreign citizenships we held! If someone refused to renounce, they were processed back out of the service as "unsuitable".
Those who held foreign citizenships, but not US (like CPL Bray, as I related in an earlier post), were required to sign papers agreeing to follow all lawful orders (subject to normal courtsmartial for disobedience), even if those orders were to take armed action against their nation of citizenship! If someone refused to sign, they were processed back out of the service as "unsuitable". There were many Phillipine citizens (mostly in the USN) who were serving in the US Armed Forces while I was... one of them worked in the same avionics shop as myself & CPL Bray: PO2 Policarpio.
I do not know if the "global communitarians" (as Bill Clinton described himself) in Congress have changed this... but that is how it was 25 years ago.
Those who held foreign citizenships, but not US (like CPL Bray, as I related in an earlier post), were required to sign papers agreeing to follow all lawful orders (subject to normal courtsmartial for disobedience), even if those orders were to take armed action against their nation of citizenship! If someone refused to sign, they were processed back out of the service as "unsuitable". There were many Phillipine citizens (mostly in the USN) who were serving in the US Armed Forces while I was... one of them worked in the same avionics shop as myself & CPL Bray: PO2 Policarpio.
I do not know if the "global communitarians" (as Bill Clinton described himself) in Congress have changed this... but that is how it was 25 years ago.
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Swingwing.
Your point of view, and SASless touched on this, means that every Free French Airman who fought for the Allied cause during WW2 was a Traitor; as were those from Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia, Italy, Poland, Luxembourg, Latvia , Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg et al.
During a visit to Estonia with SACEUR in 1993 our "minder" informed us that he had been conscripted into the Luftwaffe in 1942 and had spent several years in a POW Camp after the war was over. His brother, 2 yrs younger, had been conscripted into the Soviet Air force after Estonia had been "recaptured" and returned home several years before he did.
I would suggest that you have a rather "idealistic" viewpoint which bears little resemblence to the reality that faces those who are caught up in such situations.
Your point of view, and SASless touched on this, means that every Free French Airman who fought for the Allied cause during WW2 was a Traitor; as were those from Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia, Italy, Poland, Luxembourg, Latvia , Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg et al.
During a visit to Estonia with SACEUR in 1993 our "minder" informed us that he had been conscripted into the Luftwaffe in 1942 and had spent several years in a POW Camp after the war was over. His brother, 2 yrs younger, had been conscripted into the Soviet Air force after Estonia had been "recaptured" and returned home several years before he did.
I would suggest that you have a rather "idealistic" viewpoint which bears little resemblence to the reality that faces those who are caught up in such situations.
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GK121,
Still the same basic rules; you enlist/are commissioned, take an oath to serve and defend the {US} Constitution. If you can't/won't, out you go.
I am certainly not an expert, however, I feel fairly confident to say that I would think that most other nations operate in a somewhat similiar fashion. One takes an OATH to serve THAT nation. That's why I find Sztoggy's intimation that he'd switch sides if it weren't convenient so odious.
(High horse mounted.....CHARGE!!!
)
Still the same basic rules; you enlist/are commissioned, take an oath to serve and defend the {US} Constitution. If you can't/won't, out you go.
I am certainly not an expert, however, I feel fairly confident to say that I would think that most other nations operate in a somewhat similiar fashion. One takes an OATH to serve THAT nation. That's why I find Sztoggy's intimation that he'd switch sides if it weren't convenient so odious.
(High horse mounted.....CHARGE!!!
)
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Originally Posted by cazatou
Swingwing.
Your point of view, and SASless touched on this, means that every Free French Airman who fought for the Allied cause during WW2 was a Traitor; as were those from Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia, Italy, Poland, Luxembourg, Latvia , Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg et al.
During a visit to Estonia with SACEUR in 1993 our "minder" informed us that he had been conscripted into the Luftwaffe in 1942 and had spent several years in a POW Camp after the war was over. His brother, 2 yrs younger, had been conscripted into the Soviet Air force after Estonia had been "recaptured" and returned home several years before he did.
I would suggest that you have a rather "idealistic" viewpoint which bears little resemblence to the reality that faces those who are caught up in such situations.
Your point of view, and SASless touched on this, means that every Free French Airman who fought for the Allied cause during WW2 was a Traitor; as were those from Belgium, Denmark, Holland, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia, Italy, Poland, Luxembourg, Latvia , Lithuania, Estonia, Luxembourg et al.
During a visit to Estonia with SACEUR in 1993 our "minder" informed us that he had been conscripted into the Luftwaffe in 1942 and had spent several years in a POW Camp after the war was over. His brother, 2 yrs younger, had been conscripted into the Soviet Air force after Estonia had been "recaptured" and returned home several years before he did.
I would suggest that you have a rather "idealistic" viewpoint which bears little resemblence to the reality that faces those who are caught up in such situations.
Sorry, I don't follow your logic. For the sake of brevity, I'll use the Free French in your example. If a guy volunteered to serve the Vichy following the German invasion, then I'd say yes, he was a traitor to his oath if he left and flew for the RAF. If he didn't take an oath to Vichy France, then no worries. Subsequently, once Adolf and Co. occupied the whole of France, then that oath was invalidated.
The other occupied countries in your example would be the same. If the country one had taken an oath to defend no longer exists or is occupied to the degree in WWII, then one would be released from said oath.
Sorry about your 'minder' and his brother, rotten luck, but not germaine to the point at hand. Sztoggy apparently is a voluntarily serving member of the French military. Until yet another country plays through France, he should be bound by his VOLUNTARY oath to serve even if he doesn't agree with the French government's policy, should it come to that.
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brickhistory
See post above yours.
It depends on how the oath is extracted. If it is freely given then fine. But if it is extracted on pain of death, or of injury to ones Family, then is that a binding contract?
See post above yours.
It depends on how the oath is extracted. If it is freely given then fine. But if it is extracted on pain of death, or of injury to ones Family, then is that a binding contract?
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brickhistory,
Sorry we crossed.
You miss the point. Ther "Vichy Government" that negotiated the surrender WAS the "legitimate" Government of France recognised by the German Government ; but one that had renaged on its obligations to its Allies.
General De Gaulle had proclaimed a "Government in Exile" which was recognised by all the Allied Combatant Nations - including the USA and USSR when then became embroiled.
Free French forces fought valiantly for the Allied cause in North Africa, Europe and the Far East.
By your reckoning they were all "Traitors"
Sorry we crossed.
You miss the point. Ther "Vichy Government" that negotiated the surrender WAS the "legitimate" Government of France recognised by the German Government ; but one that had renaged on its obligations to its Allies.
General De Gaulle had proclaimed a "Government in Exile" which was recognised by all the Allied Combatant Nations - including the USA and USSR when then became embroiled.
Free French forces fought valiantly for the Allied cause in North Africa, Europe and the Far East.
By your reckoning they were all "Traitors"
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Originally Posted by cazatou
brickhistory,
Sorry we crossed.
You miss the point. Ther "Vichy Government" that negotiated the surrender WAS the "legitimate" Government of France recognised by the German Government ; but one that had renaged on its obligations to its Allies.
General De Gaulle had proclaimed a "Government in Exile" which was recognised by all the Allied Combatant Nations - including the USA and USSR when then became embroiled.
Free French forces fought valiantly for the Allied cause in North Africa, Europe and the Far East.
By your reckoning they were all "Traitors"
Sorry we crossed.
You miss the point. Ther "Vichy Government" that negotiated the surrender WAS the "legitimate" Government of France recognised by the German Government ; but one that had renaged on its obligations to its Allies.
General De Gaulle had proclaimed a "Government in Exile" which was recognised by all the Allied Combatant Nations - including the USA and USSR when then became embroiled.
Free French forces fought valiantly for the Allied cause in North Africa, Europe and the Far East.
By your reckoning they were all "Traitors"
caz,
We are writing past each other; the Vichy government was not the same one that made the Allied arrangements pre-1940. Most of the Free French that came to Britain and served so well did not take an oath to Vichy as far as I am aware, so therefore they weren't traitors. Once all of France was occupied, then even those bound to Vichy were released from their obligations in my mind. Comes back to your "serving at the point of a gun or under threat of torture" scenario.
I in no way disparage those that fought against the Nazis. My issue on this thread was the 'picking and choosing' of which policy a serving member of France's military appears to espouse.
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Originally Posted by brickhistory
GK121,
One takes an OATH to serve THAT nation. That's why I find Sztoggy's intimation that he'd switch sides if it weren't convenient so odious.
(High horse mounted.....CHARGE!!! )
One takes an OATH to serve THAT nation. That's why I find Sztoggy's intimation that he'd switch sides if it weren't convenient so odious.
(High horse mounted.....CHARGE!!!
)
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Bindingly and legally enforceably renouncing one's citizenship to the receiving country is all well and good. The fly in the ointment here is that the UK does not recognise such renunciation. Other countries, such as Germany, do.
It's a very vexed situation. I find my ideals more rooted in the US than the UK. So I'm happy here. I did serve in the UK military for most of my adult life, and I would have fought and died for the Queen. The concept of dual citizenship suits me, but if it ever came to a third "war of independence", I would obviously have to take sides, and which side that would be would be decided by where my feet were at the time, as I would have clearly voted with them.
It's a very vexed situation. I find my ideals more rooted in the US than the UK. So I'm happy here. I did serve in the UK military for most of my adult life, and I would have fought and died for the Queen. The concept of dual citizenship suits me, but if it ever came to a third "war of independence", I would obviously have to take sides, and which side that would be would be decided by where my feet were at the time, as I would have clearly voted with them.