Married quarters for homosexuals?

[k3k3]

Originally Posted by raf_wannabe

Moderator, I applaud your action. Cut their fingers off if you can to stop their drivel entering this forum ever again.

Book burning next?

[Maple 01]

If it's AP3000 I'll bring the matches

[TheInquisitor]

McBell-End,

By definition, you are not normal.
Okay, at what statistical figure does something become "normal" in your bizarre world? Homosexuality is normal by definition, as people have always been gay, even if various societies have tried to pretend that they haven't. Maybe you need a new dictionary with a better definition of "normal"?

Medically, "Normal" is defined as a characteristic exibited by 90% of the population. Anything that falls outside this 90% is defined as "abnormal". Homosexuality is, therefore, Medically Abnormal.

That includes not having to listen to people such as yourself telling me that they "accept" or "tolerate" me.

By the same token, why should normal folks (see definition above) have to listen to militant queers telling them that they must accept or tolerate them? I don't have to accept or tolerate ANYTHING. My choice, my right. This kind of attitude is beginning to cause alot of tolerant people to become intolerant. I used to be FAR more tolerant than I am now.

despite the efforts of poisonous bigots such as the Pope, etc...

So, you demand that normal people tolerate you, and in the same breath post something that is DEEPLY offensive to many peoples' genuinely held religious beliefs. Well done.

raf_won'tbe,

And you don't find that aspect of human nature abhorant?

Whether it is right or wrong is not the issue. Human nature is eternally unchanging - neither you, nor any of your pinko buddies can do ANYTHING about it, so just learn to live with it. There is no other option.

How dare you fire back at Tim for wanting to air in a few paragraphs what countless thousands of Stonewall, etc pressure group supporters spent decades lobbying for.

Yes, how dare I question the motives of the almighty gay rights lobby. How dare I defend myself and my beliefs in the face of militant queerdom. How dare I have an opinion of my own that doesn't fit current fashionable socialist claptrap. how DARE I!

It is very easy for people in the normal demographics to turn their noses up at the issues of the homosexual at the moment, because it does seems like its everywhere. And do you know what? It is I'm afraid.

No, it isn't.

Its living next door to your house.

No, it isn't.

Its down the NAAFI selling you a can of coke.

errr.....no, it's not there either...

Its the navigator sitting behind you at 30,000ft.

...or there..

Its your new born son who just wants to be loved by his father.

...and it MOST CERTAINLY is not there. (top tip, son: don't bring people's kids into this or you will have a sh!tstorm on your hands).
No, I don't see ANY of this gay utopia of which you speak. It is merely in your imagination (and the imagination of many, many other militant homos trying to over-promote themselves). Sorry, little boy, it's time to get out, see the REAL world and accept the reality of it.

You're right. Most people are not gay . And, alas, I am also inclined to agree with you on your point that parents won't teach their children about homosexuality. But thankfully in 2006 and beyond, homosexuality being displayed how it is, is meaning that the modern youth do not need their parents to teach them about it. Section 28 has been lifted. Youth groups talk openly about it. Organisations offer advice. The homophobic parent is left redundant. Loving and open parents embraced.

You are obviously a little boy with big ideas, and absoultely NO clue about bringing up children. Parents have much, much more influence over their children than any education system could ever have. This aside, there is hardly a school in the country that would DARE go near promoting homosexuality, because the vast, vast majority of normal parents do not want their kids indoctrinated by queer propaganda. FACT. So the fact that CLAUSE 28 has been repealed is neither here nor there. Deal with it.

So you think that parents who DON'T allow their kids to be indoctrinated with queer propaganda are unloving? You arrogant little s**t! Do me a favour, little boy, go away somewhere for a long time, get kids of your own, and GROW UP. There's a good lad. RAF_wannabe? I guess I'll see you in McDonalds one day, serving me my big mac...

To all the Homo-fascists here:

The world has NOT changed - people are just more careful about what they say within earshot of your kind. And the Armed Forces most DEFINITELY have not changed. Just because you don't get to hear what is said about you when you are not in the crewroom does NOT mean that we have gone all pinko-fluffy tolerant - because we HAVEN'T, and NEVER WILL whilst there are militant fag-fascists telling us what we may or may not think.

If you want tolerance, if you want acceptance, then try showing some - by accepting that some find homosexuality distasteful and wrong - and stop trying to FORCE people into acceptance. You cannot ENFORCE tolerance and equality; any attempt to do so invariably has the opposite result.

[Talk Wrench]

Having perused this forum from afar and only now being able to reply, I think that the original few posts had valid points as to the allocations of quarters to co-habiting homosexuals.

Some posters though,seem intent on politicising the fact that whether people do or do not accept homosexuality.

Fact. Gay people do exist and do not deserve to be bas****ised because of their sexual preference.

Fact. Gay people have been around us all for eons, but until only recently have had to remain in the closet for fear of retribution.

Fact. They are human beings like all of us.


I have a theory. And that is the most bigoted people are the ones who are just plain ignorant towards life or are confused about their own sexuality.

As for me, I am very content being a 30 something heterosexual male. Some of my colleagues are content with being of a different sexual persuasion than my own. It doesn't stop them being good people like it doesn't stop me being a good person.

Oh yeah, at one point in my life, I used to be anti gay, until a friend I had known for years suddenly blurted out in the naafi one eve that he was gay.I was more annoyed that he hadn't had the guts to tell me earlier.

Rant over

TW

[movadinkampa747]

Originally Posted by Talk Wrench

Oh yeah, at one point in my life, I used to be anti gay, until a friend I had known for years suddenly blurted out in the naafi one eve that he was gay.I was more annoyed that he hadn't had the guts to tell me earlier.

TW

You used to be anti-gay? Was that like some disease or something? Was it like giving up smoking when your friend told you?

Why do you feel the need to tell us you sexual prferences? Is there something you are not telling us?
Why would you think being gay would mean gay people are not good people?

[Training Risky]

RAF Wanabee and the chap from Sheffield.

Do you plan to start your litigation diary from Day 1 IF you join the RAF?... leading to that all important compo claim in 5/10/20 years time?

Please let us know when people such as yourself form the majority of the 15 000-odd personnel in a few years time.... and I'll know it's time to leave.

[C130 Techie]

Its sad to see that nothing changes

So the gay/straight bigotted slanging match continues.

Right or wrong homosexuality is permitted in todays Armed Forces. I may not approve of it but I accept it provided they receive the same treatment and have the same rights as eveyone else.

I accept that there are issues with Married Quarters. Years ago it was straight forward married = quarter, not married = no quarter simple. Today the world is different not everyone chooses to marry, people, both heterosexual and homosexual, choose to co-habit, we have single parents both male and female. The balance has changed and system needs to update in a reasoned and fair way. I couldn't care less who lives next door provided they abide by the rules of occupancy which should allow every family to live in peace and quiet.

For those of you on both sides who are blighting these pages with your bigotry and prejudices my message is simple. Grow up or take your cr@p somewhere else.

Live and let live

[XL319]

I know quite a few gay people maybe closeted because of the biggoted attitudes some of you have in here....it's some people attitudes who think all gay men would try and come on to them (god knows how they come to that conclusion). I find it quite funny actually reading some of the posts. Going back to the crewroom comment, i've never heard people slagging people off behind their backs and my gay friends are great with my kids.

Just goes to show soceity isn't as tolerant as i first thought.

[Maple 01]

Medically, "Normal" is defined as a characteristic exibited by 90% of the population. Anything that falls outside this 90% is defined as "abnormal". Homosexuality is, therefore, Medically Abnormal.

Therefore being male or female is a medical abnormality? Welcome to the freaks!

[XL319]

What's "normal" is this day and age???????/

Are Jews Normal? Are black people normal? i could go on but don't think i need to

[ZH875]

Originally Posted by Maple 01

Therefore being male or female is a medical abnormality? Welcome to the freaks!

Surely if you are Male OR Female, you are in a medical Normality, it is only Male which is abnormal (approx 50%) or Female which is abnormal (approx 50%), but male or female is just about 100%, therefore normal.

The question is: What happens when Britain is ruled by the Muslims, who are taught/believe that homosexuality is abhorrent and against their laws, how will this fit in with the current fluffy PC correct brigade, who say that it is normal?. How can Britain be both a Muslim state and a PC correct state, surely one side will lose out? - But which one? and what will happen if the 'wrong' (select whichever you want) side wins?

[brakedwell]

Originally Posted by ZH875

The question is: What happens when Britain is ruled by the Muslims, who are taught/believe that homosexuality is abhorrent and against their laws, how will this fit in with the current fluffy PC correct brigade, who say that it is normal?. How can Britain be both a Muslim state and a PC correct state, surely one side will lose out? - But which one? and what will happen if the 'wrong' (select whichever you want) side wins?

When Sharia Law comes into force, instead of Gay Pride Marches there will be Public Executions of Gays and Adulterers and I will be six foot under - thank goodness.

[Tim McLelland]

This is why I said earlier that I think it's foolish to remove postings if they're deemed to be offensive. Patently, they're not offensive to gay people, as we've heard every possible variation on the name-calling theme, and it's water off a proverbial duck's back. I think it's more important that we hear what people think because, as you can see, there are still people out there who hold views that most people abandoned decades ago. It's important that we don't kid ourselves into thinking that we live in a tolerant and inclusive society because, quire clearly, we don't, although we're getting there-slowly!

I love the comments about being "normal" - I'd love to know what reputable source this notion comes from that in order to qualify for normality, you have to score ninety percent in the "acceptance league". What utter rubbish! It sounds so ludicrous that I'm inclined to think that it comes from a Christian Institute source, or something similar. Unfortunately, most "statistics" that are spewed out on homosexuality are bogus ones, pumped out my nasty religious groups such as the C!, and every thime the statistics are scrutinised, they're found to ge grossly and maliciously inaccurate. Besides, I just find the whole notion of having to meet an arbitary figure hilarious... "I'm sorry sir, you only rate at eighty-nine percent, therefore I'm afraid you're abnormal" ... what a laugh. Anyone with common sense knows that whether you like or approve of gay people or not, there's millions of us, always have been and always will be therefore, by definition, we're as normal as anyone else. But I guess if it makes a few bigots happy to call me "abnormal" that's fine, it's not as if I or anyone else cares, but it illustrates how desperate some people are to try and pretend that we don't even exist.

As you can see for some of these postings, some (thankfully not many) people still think that gay men are sexual predators that want to molest every man and boy they come into contact with. Nobody knows quite where this notion comes from, and frankly, some of these people are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think anyone (gay or straight) would give them a second look. Likewise, you can also see how some people seem to think that being gay revolves around buggery, even though it patently doesn't, and the act of buggery is just as prevalent between straight male/female couples as it with within gay relationships. It's fascinating to see how some people just can't grasp that homosexuality is (as the name describes) a sexual preference for a person of the same gender - nothing more, and every other belief, rumour, fantasy or accusation you might care to attach to the name is purely generated by your own mind.

No matter how you look at things, surely any right-minded individual must be glad that the MoD is making some effort to eradicate the kind of backward attitudes that some people have expressed on this thread. Naturally, nobody is going to be forced into condoning, liking or even tolerating gay relationships; the fact of the matter is that we don't need anyone's approval - we have a human right to be treated the same as everybody else and anyone who tries to treat us differently deserves, quite rightly, to be punished or penalised accordingly. That's the mark of a civilised society. It's encouraging that the Navy and (to a lesser degre) the RAF is trying to wipe-out the kind of "barrack room humour" that intimidates or offends gay people. We can take a joke just like anyone else, but we all know that some attitudes go way beyond humour. The armed forces are no place for homophobia and the sooner the subject is no longer an issue, the better for everyone - no matter what side of the pink fence you might live on.

[tablet_eraser]

Who the hell is moderating this forum and why the hell has s/he deleted posts from me and Monty77 that simply made opposing points?

For f k's sake, if you're going to delete something have the guts to tell us why.

[MR12]

Originally Posted by Tim McLelland

MR12, you've heroically missed the point, I fear.
I can quite understand that some people might well get sick and tired of political correctness - I do too, but this subject has lots to do with the RAF and MoD. You'll be only too aware of the acute problems that the MoD is having in terms of recruitment, and it makes perfect sense to "put one's house in order" to ensure that no member of the public feels excluded from the opportunity to join the armed forces. On a wider theme, just from a moral viewpoint it has to be a good thing too, doesn't it?
I think that from your persepctive, you're looking at this matter as if the MoD is making unfair efforts to cater for the interests of a minority group. Okay, if you look at it like that then it might seem annoying, but try looking at it from the perspecteive of a young gay man (or woman) who is just the same as any other lad, has a passion for aeroplanes or military subjects, wants to get through school and be a fast jet pilot or join the Army or whatever, and what does he think? He gets a mental image of sniggering comments, sideways looks, whispered rumours, or worse still, abuse, maybe even violence, all because he merely has a different sexual orientation which doesn't render him any less capable of doing his job, or living his life in just the same way as anyone else.
I quite agree that political correctness is a mixed blessing which often annoys rather than impresses, but we can't allow a modern society, and particularly our armed forces, to continue condoning the kind of attitudes that are better suited to early Carry-On films. Gay people (okay with some exceptions) are not limp-wristed, pink-wearing, girly sexual predators; they're people like you with the same number of limbs, the same lives and interests and the same aspirations, and they have the same right as you to be treated exactly the same. Even now in 2006, us homos are still most certainly not treated the same as everybody else, but we're getting-there, and whilst I agree that it would have been nice to have got this far without marching, shouting, campaigning, whining and bitching, you have to accept that this is the only way that any progress is ever made. Sadly, people's perceptions and attitudes don't change unless you hit them with a few reality checks.
Oh, and the Navy marching through London? Well, contrary to your comments, the MoD has every need to "reach out" particularly to large chunks of the population such as ours. It's not as if we're a small group - we represent something like twenty percent of the population (the "one in then" catchphrase is an urban myth). You can bet that more than a few young people will have been encouraged to see that it is (finally) possible to wear a RN uniform and openly announce your sexuality without fear of so much as a sideways glance, and hopefully a few more people will join their ranks as a result. If the MoD maintain this kind of attiude, it might not be too long before we reach that happy stage where we don't even know why we ever regarded homosexuality as even being an issue. Imagine!

Actually I don't think I have. I am aware that the MoD has a significant problem with recruiting and retention, but let's have a look at the full range of issues facing it as it tries to enlist and keep today's young people : pay rates lower than for less demanding civilian jobs; an unwillingness to accept imposed discipline; regular tours in unpleasant places with a real risk of being blown up, crippled or starring in an Al-Qaeda video; the antipathy to the Iraq war and to a lesser extent Afghanistan, and the belief that the armed forces are just pawns for neocons to play with at will; kit shortages; decidedly iffy support from the seat-warmers in Whitehall (to put it mildly); stories of bullying by sadistic NCOs; family pressure to get away from all of the above so that husband/dad's home more often, and people using archaic nasty words about gays. I'd love to see the proof that the last-mentioned is clear and away a significant threat to recruitment, just as I'm waiting for the conclusive proof that homosexuals make up 20% of the population. If you are, fair enough, but please quote your sources.
Can't afford to exclude particular segments of the population ? No indeed; the forces - RAF and RN more than army - often need skill more than grunt now, shouldn't care where they find them and should care about retaining them, but given the conditions in which every member of the armed forces can find themselves not even the most technologically advanced military in the world can afford to pander to individuals who can't hack the military's particularly scatological humour and sometimes brutal behaviour. Contrary to the wishes of the political class, the armed forces are not the Guardian Readers' Travel Club or the militant wing of Oxfam. Yet.
Let me reiterate my original point in a different way and hope that we can reach some kind of understanding : hectoring people doesn't work. Gays in the armed forces suffer intimidation and abuse ? I can believe it, and it's wrong, but every sub-group (black/Jock/Paddy/Taff/whatever) and most individuals in the armed forces suffer that during training and during their careers - humans are animals, a group is a pack and a perceived difference is always picked on. The single most important thing you can do from day one of training is to stand up for yourself; hit back with similar humour and argue the toss (it works more often than you think), use your fists if you have to and draw in the chain of command if that's beyond you. The armed forces do care about keeping people who've cost them money to train and most officers and NCOs will put aside any personal phobias to do something about genuine bullying. One bet I'll gladly lay here and now though is that demanding that the head shed stops people calling you a screaming bender will not change your oppos' attitudes one iota.
It does indeed take time to change perceptions, but more than that it takes rational debate - repeated ad nauseam if necessary - and example. Want to be a proud gay member of the armed forces ? Drop the 'gay' bit. Nobody in their right mind will care what happens between consenting adults unless you make an issue of it first.
I am not a number ! Oh no, hang on, I am. Sorry.

[SAR Boy Anchor]

Ignoring for a moment the obviously emotive topic at hand, I think that it is important that whoever has moderated this particular thread explains their reason for doing so. This is meant to be an unmoderated section, and if people don't say things giving away national secrets (of which there are lets face it there are very few, and those who do know them really should know better than to talk) or make openly illegal suggestions, then surely all other things should be fair game.


This particular topic is an important one. Having all in the UK military being made, up until 1998 to sign forms which stated which we thought homosexuality was incompatible with military life, it is unsurprising, if a little sad, that people have so much trouble adapting to the change.


Stopping debate, especially in such an underhand way as appears to have happened here, stops people being properly informed, and therefore unable to make balanced decisions. Look at history to see what happens when someone silently decides what infomation people should, and should not, receive.

[An Teallach]

Perhaps the Mod was just doing (particularly one of) the posters a very big favour. What was posted certainly had me convinced that poofs had no more right to exist on God's clean Earth than ...

Of course, convincing the rest of the PPRuNe community was never the issue for the poster. The big question is, how long can he convince himself?

How boring these threads would be if it wasn't for the traditional slew of ladies protesting too much.

[Tim McLelland]

a perceived difference is always picked on. The single most important thing you can do from day one of training is to stand up for yourself; hit back with similar humour and argue the toss (it works more often than you think), use your fists if you have to

Exactly - a perceived difference which will hopefully soon be gone, in the same way that ethinicity has. Once the "ooh he's a bender" rubbish has finally been consigned to the dustbin, we can grow-up and move on.

You're not serious about the "use your fists" bit are you? It rather devalues everything you've said if that's your solution to dealing with a dispute!

[Tim McLelland]

What was posted certainly had me convinced that poofs had no more right to exist on God's clean Earth than ...


But then if you'd actually read the posts, you'd have observed that nobody had ever even intimated that "poofs" had any more right to exists on "God's" (sic) Earth than anyone else...

[An Teallach]

Tim
I think your irony detector could do with a polish. I refer the Hon. Gent. to the last time this forum was graced with a slew of ladies who didst protest too much.