Why do people leave the RAF early?
Fat Albert
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
I do remember a time when the RAF was awash with Chief Technician ranks, they therefore offered them the chance to leave etc if desired and it would not I believe effect their pensions etc..............
End result, those Chiefs that were any good and would get a job packed up and left, end result the RAF suffered from being left with the dross that had been promoted up out of the way.........
No doubt nothing has changed....
End result, those Chiefs that were any good and would get a job packed up and left, end result the RAF suffered from being left with the dross that had been promoted up out of the way.........
No doubt nothing has changed....
I would suggest that if you targeted any specific rank in any specific trade and offered them a financial incentive to leave then a cross section of the good and bad would accept the offer for a variety of reasons.
The only gripe I have is that we do not allow our Chf Techs to sign on to age 55. So much experience goes out of the door at age 47 when many would be happy to stay.
Mr Teatime - Well said. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Although I am in a ground trade I totally agree with your post!
navibrator
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
Fat Albert
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Originally Posted by Biggus
navibrator
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
BSA (CEA) is paid to servicemen so that they can put their children into boaring school to ensure stability for their eductaion whilst the serviceman moves around on posting.
If you leave the services you provide the stability by settling down in civilian life and your children can be educated at local schools thus removing the need for BSA.
You can hardly blame the system if you choose to continue with the expense of boarding schools once you leave.
My father served in the Army in Germany and I went to boading school, on his return to the UK on last tour I moved to a local school to complete my education.
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Dear All
I am fast approaching my decision point to stay PA or exit at 38/16 in a years time. I have, upto now found it difficult to make the decision between the airlines and extended service on the PA spine. I have had a fantastic time and by choice have remained FJ flying throughout and still enjoy working with like minded and for the most part, well motivated individuals.
I remain convinced that the gripes and groans we have now are not altogether that different from years ago and that the core issues remain. I believe it is not the issue of pay, unless of course you as am I, are on the recieving end of some top level JPA baffoonery. It is undoubtedly the demand for a better quality of life and ideed to be in control of ones life that drives people to pastures new. Work to live and not live to work. If you make the decision to leave, which I have pretty much done, then as long as you accept the grass will not be any greener then you should be fine. I am sure the flying will be not as challenging and there too you will have moans and groans but of a different kind. Many of my mates have made the step and are enjoying life and don't look back. I would like to hear of any others approaching their respective exit/decision points.
I am fast approaching my decision point to stay PA or exit at 38/16 in a years time. I have, upto now found it difficult to make the decision between the airlines and extended service on the PA spine. I have had a fantastic time and by choice have remained FJ flying throughout and still enjoy working with like minded and for the most part, well motivated individuals.
I remain convinced that the gripes and groans we have now are not altogether that different from years ago and that the core issues remain. I believe it is not the issue of pay, unless of course you as am I, are on the recieving end of some top level JPA baffoonery. It is undoubtedly the demand for a better quality of life and ideed to be in control of ones life that drives people to pastures new. Work to live and not live to work. If you make the decision to leave, which I have pretty much done, then as long as you accept the grass will not be any greener then you should be fine. I am sure the flying will be not as challenging and there too you will have moans and groans but of a different kind. Many of my mates have made the step and are enjoying life and don't look back. I would like to hear of any others approaching their respective exit/decision points.
C130 Techie
I wasn't making an arguement - I was simply stating a fact! Navibrator said ... "No one stays in just because they get BSA".... I was merely stating that I have met at least one person for whom that is in fact the case. The person in question wanted his kids to remain in private education - because of the QUALITY of education they were receiving. He would not have been able to do that if he left the RAF, so he stayed.
The morals of should/shouldn't you educate your children privately, etc I will leave for others to argue. My sole point is that I have met at least one person for whom loss of BSA was a significant reason for staying in the RAF - A POINT WHICH STILL STANDS. It is a fact, pure and simply, not an arguement. You may disagree with the person in questions desires/morals/values - but you cannot ignore the fact that he has them!!
Neither am I in any way .... 'blaming the system'. I repeat once again I am merely stating that for at least one person loss of BSA was a reason not to leave the RAF!!
I wasn't making an arguement - I was simply stating a fact! Navibrator said ... "No one stays in just because they get BSA".... I was merely stating that I have met at least one person for whom that is in fact the case. The person in question wanted his kids to remain in private education - because of the QUALITY of education they were receiving. He would not have been able to do that if he left the RAF, so he stayed.
The morals of should/shouldn't you educate your children privately, etc I will leave for others to argue. My sole point is that I have met at least one person for whom loss of BSA was a significant reason for staying in the RAF - A POINT WHICH STILL STANDS. It is a fact, pure and simply, not an arguement. You may disagree with the person in questions desires/morals/values - but you cannot ignore the fact that he has them!!
Neither am I in any way .... 'blaming the system'. I repeat once again I am merely stating that for at least one person loss of BSA was a reason not to leave the RAF!!
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Originally Posted by C130 Techie
What utter drivel!! This would suggest that the current stock of WOs and Flt Sgts, of which I am part, in the technical trades was derived from the 'dross' that was left behind.
I would suggest that if you targeted any specific rank in any specific trade and offered them a financial incentive to leave then a cross section of the good and bad would accept the offer for a variety of reasons.
The only gripe I have is that we do not allow our Chf Techs to sign on to age 55. So much experience goes out of the door at age 47 when many would be happy to stay.
Mr Teatime - Well said. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Although I am in a ground trade I totally agree with your post!
I would suggest that if you targeted any specific rank in any specific trade and offered them a financial incentive to leave then a cross section of the good and bad would accept the offer for a variety of reasons.
The only gripe I have is that we do not allow our Chf Techs to sign on to age 55. So much experience goes out of the door at age 47 when many would be happy to stay.
Mr Teatime - Well said. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Although I am in a ground trade I totally agree with your post!
I am not talking about current times but in the early eighties......... if it has taken you 24 years to go up a rank something must be wrong lol
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Originally Posted by Biggus
navibrator
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!
Anyone who arranges their finances so they can't afford to leave because of BSA is barking. It is an allowance and like all allowances, could be removed at a future date. It is there for continuity of education - not just to put your children through a good school. I know how much it is because I used to claim it! For what it is worth, I remain in the RAF because I like it. I just wish the habitual whingers just left and let those who are committed to a life in the Services get on with it.
Fat Albert
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Biggus. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Nutloose. No I spent 7 years as a Chief Tech and I still think that you are talking rubbish! Those WOs and Flt Sgts who I served with in the late eighties and early nineties who would presumably have been derived from your 'dross' of the early eighties were no different to any other period of my time in the RAF.
Nutloose. No I spent 7 years as a Chief Tech and I still think that you are talking rubbish! Those WOs and Flt Sgts who I served with in the late eighties and early nineties who would presumably have been derived from your 'dross' of the early eighties were no different to any other period of my time in the RAF.
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I'm still loving it!
I'm still having a great time. I quite enjoy going away with my crew to Afganistan/Iraq or whichever sh
thole next; providing there is some variety. The pay is good enough - just (although I object to a tube driver earning more than a pilot!). I do get pissed off about JPA (still not been paid properly), Aircraft sertvicability etc. but it is still a great job.
I'm 31, when I'm 38 maybe i'll feel different and leave, maybe that will not happen till 45 or 55 but be sure when that day comes there will be someone like me to take my place; equally skilled and enthusiastic. Life changes, people and jobs change, so get with it or get out. If you can't see what's good about this job then let someone in who can.
thole next; providing there is some variety. The pay is good enough - just (although I object to a tube driver earning more than a pilot!). I do get pissed off about JPA (still not been paid properly), Aircraft sertvicability etc. but it is still a great job.I'm 31, when I'm 38 maybe i'll feel different and leave, maybe that will not happen till 45 or 55 but be sure when that day comes there will be someone like me to take my place; equally skilled and enthusiastic. Life changes, people and jobs change, so get with it or get out. If you can't see what's good about this job then let someone in who can.
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BSA
BSA certainly comes into the equation somewhere. I know a Wg Cdr who was selected for a 'Blue letter' of enforced redundancy which appeared to be based on what he was costing the RAF. 3 children on BSA = a lot of money = redundancy = good cost saving. He left and carved himself a distinguished career elswehere.
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Originally Posted by A2QFI
BSA certainly comes into the equation somewhere. I know a Wg Cdr who was selected for a 'Blue letter' of enforced redundancy which appeared to be based on what he was costing the RAF. 3 children on BSA = a lot of money = redundancy = good cost saving. He left and carved himself a distinguished career elswehere.
Mind you, I guess the government would be forced to cut the same allowance for the Civil Service too - so we're probably safe!!
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Originally Posted by LFFC
Think I'm right in saying that BSA/CEA forms a massive part of the allowances package yet it's claimed by statistically very few in the Armed Forces. It wouldn't surprise me if it's targeted for the next round of cuts - particularly now that we have so few locations left to move to.
Mind you, I guess the government would be forced to cut the same allowance for the Civil Service too - so we're probably safe!!
Mind you, I guess the government would be forced to cut the same allowance for the Civil Service too - so we're probably safe!!
Too many Senior Hoccifers claim the allowance to drop it! Surely?
LFFC
I think you may be close to the truth! What erks the bean counters are people who don't move very often (ie some of those at Marham / Coltishall / Lossie who have been on the same unit for 10 yrs +) and live in their own house but because they are technically "following the flag" are still able to claim CEA.
Rev
Even sadder are that those in a position to influence the bean counters have already passed the need for CEA as their kids have long since flown the nest. Now what they need to do is protect their entertainment allowance, first class travel, house manager, house cook etc. Robbing Peter to pay Paul springs to mind.
Believe there is a "strategic allowances review" ongoing / in the pipeline - I'm sure the rumours are out there somewhere but when has "review" ever meant anything other than cut!
Just hope if CEA goes it doesn't go until after Sep 07 and then there are reserve rights for those already on it!
Oh, and don't forget FQ charges will continue to be increased above inflation / pay rise as the deal with Annington Homes was, I believe, to bring charges in line with "civilian" house rental charges (and cause a similar amount of pain when London weighting was removed for many other lines of work - Police and Fire I believe were two). How much does a 3/4 bedroom house cost to rent in the High Wycombe area? And would you want to pay market rates for the standard of the majority of FQ's these days?
I appreciate all you non-mil types will weigh in with the "welcome to the real world" statements but it is another so-called quality of life "pull" factor that is being eroded and may be a reason for people to leave. Moving house every 2-3 years makes trying to stay in an ever (price) increasing housing market difficult, particularly when moving from (say) Norfolk to (say) Northwood (my 4 bedroom detached house in Norfolk would have bought me a one bedroom attic conversion in Northwood - great when you're married with 2 kids!). And some of us don't get the option to stay at the same location year after year.
Personally, I still get enough from being in the Service not to want to leave just yet. But if circumstances change I will leave, in the same way as if I was out in the big wide world that is "civvie-street". Give and work your required notice and leave. Don't monk - just go. Simple as that. Having already done 20yrs + I don't see it being disloyal - HM has had her fair share of my time and life! I'd rather leave with my head held high than leave all bitter and twisted moping on about "the good old days" and "it ain't how it used to be".
I think you may be close to the truth! What erks the bean counters are people who don't move very often (ie some of those at Marham / Coltishall / Lossie who have been on the same unit for 10 yrs +) and live in their own house but because they are technically "following the flag" are still able to claim CEA.
Rev
Even sadder are that those in a position to influence the bean counters have already passed the need for CEA as their kids have long since flown the nest. Now what they need to do is protect their entertainment allowance, first class travel, house manager, house cook etc. Robbing Peter to pay Paul springs to mind.
Believe there is a "strategic allowances review" ongoing / in the pipeline - I'm sure the rumours are out there somewhere but when has "review" ever meant anything other than cut!
Just hope if CEA goes it doesn't go until after Sep 07 and then there are reserve rights for those already on it!
Oh, and don't forget FQ charges will continue to be increased above inflation / pay rise as the deal with Annington Homes was, I believe, to bring charges in line with "civilian" house rental charges (and cause a similar amount of pain when London weighting was removed for many other lines of work - Police and Fire I believe were two). How much does a 3/4 bedroom house cost to rent in the High Wycombe area? And would you want to pay market rates for the standard of the majority of FQ's these days?
I appreciate all you non-mil types will weigh in with the "welcome to the real world" statements but it is another so-called quality of life "pull" factor that is being eroded and may be a reason for people to leave. Moving house every 2-3 years makes trying to stay in an ever (price) increasing housing market difficult, particularly when moving from (say) Norfolk to (say) Northwood (my 4 bedroom detached house in Norfolk would have bought me a one bedroom attic conversion in Northwood - great when you're married with 2 kids!). And some of us don't get the option to stay at the same location year after year.
Personally, I still get enough from being in the Service not to want to leave just yet. But if circumstances change I will leave, in the same way as if I was out in the big wide world that is "civvie-street". Give and work your required notice and leave. Don't monk - just go. Simple as that. Having already done 20yrs + I don't see it being disloyal - HM has had her fair share of my time and life! I'd rather leave with my head held high than leave all bitter and twisted moping on about "the good old days" and "it ain't how it used to be".
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Wow ....only 10 years at one unit !!!
There are plenty at Lyneham who have been there for 15-20 years
I wonder what the record is...
I wonder too if they check up on these peeps who claim BSA...bet they have been in same situ for years without a move...maybe the odd sqn change to keep the desk man happy.
5d2d
There are plenty at Lyneham who have been there for 15-20 years
I wonder what the record is...
I wonder too if they check up on these peeps who claim BSA...bet they have been in same situ for years without a move...maybe the odd sqn change to keep the desk man happy.
5d2d
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
AFAIK, the posting rules for airmen, set out in the '70s still apply. This was that an airman would be posted to fulfill a vacancy caused by someone posted overseas, promoted or retired. At the time I knew a steward who was an SAC serving in the feeder at Cottesmore for 17 yrs.
I know a kipper fleet pilot who (as far as I remember) never served outside Scotland and rose to become AOSNI.
Many aircrew serve their entire career with one type on one base. It is almost the same with some engineers rising through the ranks to sqn ldr branch and being essentially a unit subject matter expert.
Given the quartering situation I believe it is not unknown for people to retain a quarter during the odd periods at the ministry etc. At a secret air base in Wiltshire one quarters occupant had installed his own patio, new fence, glass greenhouse, swimming pool etc.
I know a kipper fleet pilot who (as far as I remember) never served outside Scotland and rose to become AOSNI.
Many aircrew serve their entire career with one type on one base. It is almost the same with some engineers rising through the ranks to sqn ldr branch and being essentially a unit subject matter expert.
Given the quartering situation I believe it is not unknown for people to retain a quarter during the odd periods at the ministry etc. At a secret air base in Wiltshire one quarters occupant had installed his own patio, new fence, glass greenhouse, swimming pool etc.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Originally Posted by 500days2do
I wonder too if they check up on these peeps who claim BSA...bet they have been in same situ for years without a move...maybe the odd sqn change to keep the desk man happy.
5d2d
5d2d
And pigs mght fly.
More likely was the east coast shuffle with the Tornado or Fighter Control.
This thread seems to be drifting off the point a little. I am a non-military flyer, but my son is a fast jet pilot considering PVR.
My feeling is that there is a serious failure of management within both the RAF and RN airborne services.These failures appear to range through inadequate supply of often incompatible equipment, to chaotic 'off the cuff' operational planning, to lack of career/ lifestyle management and progression for highly trained and motivated personnel. It is obvious that job satisfaction, rather than financial reward, is what attracts 'the best' into military flying and this appears to allow whoever you call 'management' to control your lives in an indifferent and uncaring way. What angers me, as a considerable taxpayer, is the apparent profligate waste of expensive material and human resources that is going on. The premature retirement of the SHAR and Jaguar are a prime example, plus the considerable disillusion expressed in this forum as a result of poor career management.
As already observed, it may take a military defeat to turn the tide on this state of affairs, but meantime I am deeply saddened by the apparent physical and mental depletion of our armed services. Maybe I am only seeing the negatives?
With respect to all.............777fly
My feeling is that there is a serious failure of management within both the RAF and RN airborne services.These failures appear to range through inadequate supply of often incompatible equipment, to chaotic 'off the cuff' operational planning, to lack of career/ lifestyle management and progression for highly trained and motivated personnel. It is obvious that job satisfaction, rather than financial reward, is what attracts 'the best' into military flying and this appears to allow whoever you call 'management' to control your lives in an indifferent and uncaring way. What angers me, as a considerable taxpayer, is the apparent profligate waste of expensive material and human resources that is going on. The premature retirement of the SHAR and Jaguar are a prime example, plus the considerable disillusion expressed in this forum as a result of poor career management.
As already observed, it may take a military defeat to turn the tide on this state of affairs, but meantime I am deeply saddened by the apparent physical and mental depletion of our armed services. Maybe I am only seeing the negatives?
With respect to all.............777fly
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Hey 777
You got it in a nutshell. As a pilot officer in the RNZAF (I joined at the max age after completing a bachelors degree, followed by a management diploma), I was constantly poo-pooed by Squadron Commanders that thought they knew best but couldn't see the wood for the trees. Pilots were leaving in droves, and nothing was being done to address the problem. In one week there were 14 717's (get out quick requests). A few ended up in court, such was the desire to get out. And it was not just for the money a pilot could make on the outside. It was much more to do with the instability in the home (moving every two years), and the autocratic way that squadrons were run. "Management" were never at fault, a/c unserviceability was always the fault of the techies, and the upper echelons (read REMF's) could do no wrong. Government cutbacks meant a virtual end to continuation training (both in contract simulators and on-line), and some pilots were consequently failing standards checks. Crew resource management was non-existent - a co-pilot was expected to fly as a one man crew on a large multi for his check. Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the Airforce, flying with REGULAR guys, but the REMF's screw it up. I had one (WCDR) who, when I resigned, told me I would never fly with a commercial airline! This is coming from someone who forgot to put the gear down and ended up having to go-around - despite my call of "No Gear". Such is life. It suits some, and not others. To all those that stay, be the best you can, those of us that have left appreciate your dedication. To those of you who want to call it quits, go. There is a big world out there with lots of flying opportunities. It may not be as exciting, but it is reasonably stable. And most of you have done your part. Don't feel bad about leaving, and don't let others diss you for doing so.
Last edited by 400Rulz; 31st Jul 2006 at 13:56.
