Abolish the RAF, says Col. Tim Collins
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Had cause to visit the Canadians to look at their experiences, to see if there was scope to 'read across'. Found that they all wear similar uniforms, can't be promoted abover SO2 unless bi-lingual, and have all remained in their 'own' service. Specialist knowledge was quoted as a requirement.
ks!!!I do not think the RAF should be disbanded, but it certainly needs a good kick up the arse.
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Why count aircraft shot down? If we can gain air superiority without doing so then all the better. If flying CAPs means that the enemy never takes off then it's job done!
Effects based operations and all that...
Effects based operations and all that...
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Originally Posted by Lockstock
I think you'll find Flt Lt Dave Morgan shot down 2 Skyhawks
Valid point he did say one ofr your fast jet jocks not one or your aircraft
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Originally Posted by meag197
Some might argue that the RAF is being disbanded on the sly with all the cuts and civilianisation being made. How many personnel are we down to now - about 12 and the Air Ranks... 
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When was the last time the fast jet heroes of the Airforce actually shot anything down?
1947. Spitfire v Spitfire. (Quote by Green Freddie)
To be completely accurate, the last time an RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft had a confirmed air-to-air kill was 22 May 1948, when Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn flying a Spitfire FR18 shot down an Royal Egyptian Air Force Spitfire LF9 as it was attacking an RAF detachment at Ramat David in Israel.
The full story can be found at:
www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm
1947. Spitfire v Spitfire. (Quote by Green Freddie)
To be completely accurate, the last time an RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft had a confirmed air-to-air kill was 22 May 1948, when Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn flying a Spitfire FR18 shot down an Royal Egyptian Air Force Spitfire LF9 as it was attacking an RAF detachment at Ramat David in Israel.
The full story can be found at:
www.spyflight.co.uk/iafvraf.htm
Meady,
Are you saying all tremble in anticipation of the RAF tread?
Better change your brand of Tea there sport.
Are you saying all tremble in anticipation of the RAF tread?
Better change your brand of Tea there sport.
Oh FFS grow up, this is getting purile. Mine is bigger than yours and my mate is bigger than you, and my mate has shot down more ac than yours. The Air Force (two words not one for our green bretheren), any Air Force, on any continent, does more than shoot down aircraft! For the Dark Blue the SHAR may have shot down more aircraft than the RAF in the recent past, but then the RAF has dropped more bombs on more targets, at greater depth and over longer distances than the RN or Army! The RAF has done more ISTAR, more AT (helo, short range or long range) than either the RN or the Army. The RAF has done more tanking, more AEW, more maritime (airborne) patrol than either of the other 2. But then the RN has sailed more boats and subs and the army has driven more tanks and walked over more ground.
Stop ping around, the armed forces (UK) need all three elements. Anyone who has worked with the army KNOWS that they do not understand air or water, the RN do not understand LONG RANGE air, the the RAF do not do walking or boats! We all have our strengths and that is what we ALL need to bring to the party. Get over it and get on with it. Threads like this only help the naive and the stupid in government, the civil service and the Treasury to axe more from our overstretched budget and pour it into the black holes of the NHS and DSS!
Rant switch to Off
Stop pi
ng around, the armed forces (UK) need all three elements. Anyone who has worked with the army KNOWS that they do not understand air or water, the RN do not understand LONG RANGE air, the the RAF do not do walking or boats! We all have our strengths and that is what we ALL need to bring to the party. Get over it and get on with it. Threads like this only help the naive and the stupid in government, the civil service and the Treasury to axe more from our overstretched budget and pour it into the black holes of the NHS and DSS!Rant switch to Off
Originally Posted by Heimdall
When was the last time the fast jet heroes of the Airforce actually shot anything down?
1947. Spitfire v Spitfire. (Quote by Green Freddie)
To be completely accurate, the last time an RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft had a confirmed air-to-air kill was 22 May 1948, when Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn flying a Spitfire FR18 shot down an Royal Egyptian Air Force Spitfire LF9 as it was attacking an RAF detachment at Ramat David in Israel.
1947. Spitfire v Spitfire. (Quote by Green Freddie)
To be completely accurate, the last time an RAF pilot flying an RAF aircraft had a confirmed air-to-air kill was 22 May 1948, when Fg Off Tim McElhaw of 208 Sqn flying a Spitfire FR18 shot down an Royal Egyptian Air Force Spitfire LF9 as it was attacking an RAF detachment at Ramat David in Israel.
is so that is much more recent than 1948!
TAC Int Bloke
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To be fair, the Jag mate did make a tempting target.......and the AIM-9 worked as advertised 
And it's not as if the tankies ever indulge in a bit of blue on blue action........
Abolish the RTR and let the Navy have their landships back!
And it's not as if the tankies ever indulge in a bit of blue on blue action........
Abolish the RTR and let the Navy have their landships back!
Last edited by Maple 01; 16th May 2006 at 21:32.
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When was the last time the fast jet heroes of the Airforce actually shot anything down?
Curious how the Matelots always come back to this subject. Exactly what HAVE the Navy done since the Falklands (24 years ago)?
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Originally Posted by greenfreddie
It is good to see that the eons of experience of air transport has enabled the process of making air transport miserable to be honed to the levels now seen at South Cerney! No wonder Col Collins fancies a crack at making things better!
The question is: Exactly what HAVE the RAF done since the BoB (66 years ago)?
In all fairness credit should be given for the V bomber deterrent of the 60s and it's also true that several sheep were reportedly 'quite startled' by the RAF's contribution to operation Corporate. Indeed, if the runway hadn't cunningly (on more than one occasion) moved at the last minute who knows how many bombs would have actually hit the target?
It comes down to bang for the buck and Collins is correct to point out the woefully under performing return on our RAF investment. Time for changes. Big ones.
In all fairness credit should be given for the V bomber deterrent of the 60s and it's also true that several sheep were reportedly 'quite startled' by the RAF's contribution to operation Corporate. Indeed, if the runway hadn't cunningly (on more than one occasion) moved at the last minute who knows how many bombs would have actually hit the target?
It comes down to bang for the buck and Collins is correct to point out the woefully under performing return on our RAF investment. Time for changes. Big ones.
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Originally Posted by ratpackgreenslug
The question is: Exactly what HAVE the RAF done since the BoB (66 years ago)?
In all fairness credit should be given for the V bomber deterrent of the 60s and it's also true that several sheep were reportedly 'quite startled' by the RAF's contribution to operation Corporate. Indeed, if the runway hadn't cunningly (on more than one occasion) moved at the last minute who knows how many bombs would have actually hit the target?
It comes down to bang for the buck and Collins is correct to point out the woefully under performing return on our RAF investment. Time for changes. Big ones.
In all fairness credit should be given for the V bomber deterrent of the 60s and it's also true that several sheep were reportedly 'quite startled' by the RAF's contribution to operation Corporate. Indeed, if the runway hadn't cunningly (on more than one occasion) moved at the last minute who knows how many bombs would have actually hit the target?
It comes down to bang for the buck and Collins is correct to point out the woefully under performing return on our RAF investment. Time for changes. Big ones.
Contributed signiificantly to the Battle of the Atlantic (losses of German submarines increased significantly when, inter alia RAF MPA were capable of patrolling post of the Atlantic.
Conducted a Bomber Campaign that caused significant attrition of Germany's ability to resupply its armed forces.
Read yourself into the Western Desert campaign - a key example of land/air intergration.
Prepared (with others) the battlespace for the D-Day landings contributing to the fixing of German reserves (which would have pushed the allied landing forces back into the sea).
Delivered the airborne forces to D-Day, Market Garden, the Rhine Crossing, and Suez (to be fair I suppose they could have walked/swam).
In GW1 the Iraqi forces had been devastated by air before the Land Forces arrived - notwithstanding, this there were pockets of resistance but nowhere near an equal fight.
An effective Coercive Campaign (not just Air) led to a situation when ground troops did not have opposition entering Kosovo.
Where were the Army when the RAF (alongside allied air arms, including USN) maintained the air occupation of Northern and Southern Iraq during the 1990s - effectively 10 years + of preparation of the battlespace for TELIC 1
I am not saying that Air Forces win wars - they don't. What I am saying is that it is a combination of all elements of military power (indeed all elements of national power (military, diplomatic, and economic (and information for any US readers)) that win wars.
Last edited by Climebear; 17th May 2006 at 07:47.
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everyone complains about the service at the air mounting centre. The attitude of the RAF staff who work there to the army and the delays and mismanagemanagement. Maybe and I'm being a heritic here it should be civilianised? just like turning up at an airport to check in for your holiday flight. Get the place run by a non service and therefore theoritically independant group (that we can all moan about). Get one of the companies who runservices like this at one of the Major airports to take it on. and for the overseas end use them as specialised reserves?
I've yet to visit your quoted site Mr Tac bloke matey Maple 01 but do feel free to go there yourself with my best wishes and blessings - old boy.
Battle of the Atlantic, U Boats? For that particular scrum down all services were needed and filled vital specialist roles. An undisputed eleven out of ten goes to all of them.
Gulf wars 1 and 2, primarily American air power fought with token RAF FJ contribution, the one type of aircraft needing to stay under RAF command. Ditto Kosovo.
Policing the Iraqi skies between wars shouldn't have placed too much strain on an organisation having a personnel count of 50,000+. The tin pot dictator had after all been soundly neutered by American air power.
Edited for ga99js.
Surely the RAF understands that it is nothing more than a pimple on the backside of the USAF?
The need for AWACS isn't the question, as to who flies them for cost efficiency is. Same for RW and all other tanker and trucky functions except FJ - after the totally worthless Harrier has been chopped.
Battle of the Atlantic, U Boats? For that particular scrum down all services were needed and filled vital specialist roles. An undisputed eleven out of ten goes to all of them.
Gulf wars 1 and 2, primarily American air power fought with token RAF FJ contribution, the one type of aircraft needing to stay under RAF command. Ditto Kosovo.
Policing the Iraqi skies between wars shouldn't have placed too much strain on an organisation having a personnel count of 50,000+. The tin pot dictator had after all been soundly neutered by American air power.
Edited for ga99js.
Surely the RAF understands that it is nothing more than a pimple on the backside of the USAF?
The need for AWACS isn't the question, as to who flies them for cost efficiency is. Same for RW and all other tanker and trucky functions except FJ - after the totally worthless Harrier has been chopped.
Last edited by ratpackgreenslug; 17th May 2006 at 10:29.