Abolish the RAF, says Col. Tim Collins

[Lazer-Hound]

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index....ID=1&subID=482

Taking a leaf from 'Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs', no doubt.

[Untermensch]

Being a bit of a Tim Collins fan, since he was treated terribly by the Army High Command, I am astounded by his opinion of a future UK "Air Force-less" Defence Force.

[mlc]

What a load of drivel. His argument seems to be transfer all the personnel and assets to the Navy/Army. And the cost saving woud be???

[Admin_Guru]

Excellent idea:

What redundancy terms are we talking about? For I joined the RAF not the MOD, not the governement, and if my "company" goes bust, I expect a fair and descent settlement. This may sound stupid, but no more so than the silly mans initial comments. Too much Irish Mist in his household methinks.

[rooftopartist]

"attack on the UK homeland is no longer conceivable because our potential enemies just do not have the reach"

Tell that to the WTC workers.

"The Army would absorb all Special Forces and helicopter operations"
Yeah, give the army Pumas, Chinooks, Merlins & Seakings, I'm sure they'd get 4 different types operational in no time, just like they've done with the Apache???

Please remind us where and who instructs the RN & Army's pilots? RAF Shawbury & RAF Linton-on-Ouse is it not Mr Collins?

"The emphasis would be on the ability to launch from aircraft carriers and limited overseas bases as opposed to high-tech interceptors for a war - the Cold War - that is long over."

Try intercepting hijacked airliners over the UK with RN strike aircraft based on a carrier in the Gulf.

What planet is this guy living on?

[TheInquisitor]

We can't function without an army or navy, but we can manage without the RAF.

Really, Sir? I would suggest that recent history says otherwise.
I guess then that all the troops in theatres various, and all their equipment, got themselves there, did they? And that they magically disappear from one location in theatre and reappear in another, in a safe and timely fashion? Try getting a civilian contractor to do in-theatre airlift.

Typical that you think the RAF is all about fast jets. Air Transport is the key to EVERYTHING you do, and Tactical Air Transport is something the Army AND RN have absolutely NO experience of. Without it, you can do very little. We have decades and decades of unique experience in this vital field - not something that can be taught simply by transferring the AT fleet over to the other services for a few years.

Given that it's taken the Army several YEARS to figure out how to slot Apache into the modern way of using airpower, I don't hold out much hope that they'd have ANY chance of running the lot.

This man displays the typical Army level of understanding of what the RAF does (ie, none). It would take YEARS to teach the Army how to operate an air force on the modern 'battlefield' - perhaps less so for the RN, since they have SOME experience of air power - but still, this translates into SPENDING money, not SAVING it! Given that we already struggle, the manpower reductions would be minimal. It would just mean the Army & RN absorbing what we already have - which is pointless.

'EEJIT!', as the man himself might say.

[SASless]

Wow! Hero to Dog Doo in a flash!

Perhaps he is suggesting the RAF could do better for itself and the Nation's Interests if it (the RAF) changes it's focus from holding a single service view and change to a multi-service (Joint) view. Rather than refighting the Battle of Britain over and over....maybe it should consider itself a service organization dedicated to modern needs and demands.

[TheInquisitor]

Perhaps he is suggesting the RAF could do better for itself and the Nation's Interests if it (the RAF) changes it's focus from holding a single service view and change to a multi-service (Joint) view.

Maybe the Army could do the same, since in their view, 'Joint' means 'Army'. They still think that Cavalry charges and artillery can win the day.

Don't fight harder, fight smarter. Of the 3 services, the RAF is the most modern (in doctrine, not necessarily equipment!) the most flexible and the most willing to accept change and new practices (hence we were the ones shafted to beta-test JPA).

[Taildragger67]

Originally Posted by rooftopartist

"The Army would absorb all Special Forces and helicopter operations"
Yeah, give the army Pumas, Chinooks, Merlins & Seakings, I'm sure they'd get 4 different types operational in no time, just like they've done with the Apache???

I agree, the retired Colonel's proposition is rather nonsensical, however with respect to the above point, the RAAF gave its Chooks, Rockies and Blackhawks to the Army some years ago and it seems to have worked; most of what they did was Army stuff anyway, usually under Army tactical command, so it seemed logical (from an operational point of view) to just let them have it. It meant that the Army didn't have to 'request' tactical air assets from the RAAF and possibly end up competing for them against some other requirement and maint schedules, etc. could be worked to Army requirements more easily.

Fixed wing has stayed firmly with Ronnie.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I think perhaps he should stick to what he knows.

Naturally the servicemen and women who make up the RAF would need to be either re-assigned to the other services or given a reasonable redundancy package. There would be little scope to absorb the manpower except for the expensively trained pilots and other specialists.

Has he ever been to RAF Brize Norton? Has he seen how many people it takes to operate the AT fleet? Yeah I'm sure we could just lay them all off and leave the transfered against their will pilots and a few RLC storemen to run the show.

His ignorance is outstanding. I do hope he isn't an example of the best of Sandhurst.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Taildragger67 - But did the personnel go across with them?

I don't believe many members of the RAF would be willing to re-badge as Army and its not something you could force large numbers of people to do.

It wasn't so long ago the army were scouring the RAF for personnel willing to re-badge to help with their Apache problem. From what I understand they didn't get too many volunteers.

[ZH875]

There is only one service whose work can be undertaken by the other two:

Why not disband AAC as the RAF can fly Helicopters, Disnband ARMY,as it is not Royal, and replace it with an enlarged RAF Regiment, and as 1 Sqn have plent of Carrier experience, give the Carriers and FAA to the RAF and as for the rest of the little ships, well, a lot of people sail boats at weekends, I am sure the RAF can find a few who need little training, so there goes the Army and Navy.

Royal Marines would have to stay, as they would kick ***** out of the Rock Apes if they went anywhere near a them.

Better still, contract the all services out to the private sector, and see if they all go on strike when JPA doesn't pay the contract.


Time to vote out Blair and Co, and time to spend all our 3rd world debt cancellation charges and other 'useful' donations to far off corrupt countries on all defence forces of the UK.



Days to do are getting Few.

[soddim]

The previously well-respected Col is obviously used to running his show with the help of a competant NCO. I suggest he consults him before shooting his mouth off next time.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

I have a lot of respect for Collins' work relating to GW2 but this latest drivel is an absolute bunch of arse. If he really believes what he says, his ignorance of airpower is appalling and typical of most pongos. I would, however, expect more from a man of his seniority. I suspect though, that his comments are deliberately controversial and made purely to raise awareness that the Forces are on their knees with commitments increasing and funding decreasing. The cutbacks and contractorisation will keep coming until something breaks - badly. And I have a feeling we're now on the verge of that happening.

[Wizzard]

Reading the above a certain line from Hamlet springs to mind:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks
Wiz

[allan907]

Being a colonel he is presumably a graduate of the Army Staff College. Anybody had a squiz at what they're teaching there nowadays??? Just a thought!

[Pureteenlard]

So . . . what is the role of the RAF?

Bet the army wants the transports and choppers - and why not? The RAF can only use them for ferrying the Army where it wants to go (if they beg hard enough - see http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/The_movements_game ).

[Chainkicker]

Wacky

At present there are more General-rank officers than there are squadrons, in the case of the air force, and ships in the case of the navy.

And presumably more Melchetts than Regiments nowadays ???

[Wycombe]

Probably just getting his own back for having his bags smashed or lost at some point

[Fugazi1000]

Having just finished reading the book, Lions, Donkeys and Dinosaurs and the view that the three service arms are more concerned with maintaining the status quo than actually cooperating, the views expressed within this thread just reinforce it. It is amazing that people are so partisan.

Some joined up thinking wouldn't go amiss. I wouldn't advocating getting rid of any capability but having separate companies to deliver a service doesn't seem to work....