Abolish the RAF, says Col. Tim Collins
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Lack of Air Support
Now let me think on of the largest losses of life of the Royal Navy due to the LACK of Air superiority was the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the HMS Repulse by the Japanese Naval Air Service. There we go gentlemen one positive show of Airpower dictating the events of a theatre of war, shall I go onto the second?
Oh lets;
D-Day, if the RAF had not secured air superiority over Normandy the landing would have been a dismal waste of Army life on all fronts not just the American Beaches. Therefore the landings would not have been achievable, however; we secured the airspace, and Europe was freed.
Do not dismiss the power of an Airforce, not a fragment effort of an Army Air Corp and Naval Air Corp. We were the only force to repulse Hitler and the Axis Air Force during 1939-1940, we were only let down by the politicians of the time and dare I say history is starting to repeat itself.
Oh lets;
D-Day, if the RAF had not secured air superiority over Normandy the landing would have been a dismal waste of Army life on all fronts not just the American Beaches. Therefore the landings would not have been achievable, however; we secured the airspace, and Europe was freed.
Do not dismiss the power of an Airforce, not a fragment effort of an Army Air Corp and Naval Air Corp. We were the only force to repulse Hitler and the Axis Air Force during 1939-1940, we were only let down by the politicians of the time and dare I say history is starting to repeat itself.
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Mr Done, some very good and worthy points - but - it does not really make a case for individuality, it could still have been achieved if the air power was combined into a more coherant force, belonging to any one, all for one etc....
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Aircraft don't win wars. They support people who win wars. Wars are won by a grunt standing on a piece of ground and saying "You can't have this, it's mine" -
As For Col Tim Collins's stirring speech "before Harfleur" (apologies to Willy Shakers), I'm afraid it left me fairly cold. Being a cynical old sod I thought it was more aimed at the attendant media than at "our brave lads" who probably thought their Boss was a bit OTT. I am sure that if he had delivered a similar speech in a RAF crew room just before a major Op, his audience would have writhed in embarassment which they might have expressed by falling about laughing.
There is an enormous gulf in culture between the RAF and the Army (and indeed the Executive (seaman) branch of the RN). It would be stupid to go back to a system where wingless "grunts" or "fisheads" were placed in command of flying units - and this would happen sooner or later under Collins's scheme. If I had my time over again I would not dream of joining such an organisation.
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Grunts and fishead is a bit out of date now, there is no actual proof that any 3 of the services has the jump on intellect over another. If need be any serviceman could command the correct decision with training and ability - the colour of the headdress is wholly irrelevant. There seems to be a knee jerk reaction trying to 'dis' or justify the probable; JHC a point in case.
If we are of the same level, our wage packets look very similar. Ethos is great but not if it impinges on efficiency.
If we are of the same level, our wage packets look very similar. Ethos is great but not if it impinges on efficiency.
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Originally Posted by Gnd
Mr Done, some very good and worthy points - but - it does not really make a case for individuality, it could still have been achieved if the air power was combined into a more coherant force, belonging to any one, all for one etc....
But to secure the whole we must have the parts to concentrate on what they do best, rather than worry about the whole.
Why else do we employ 4*s at Northwood now but to secure the fact that each service can supply the BEST of its capability at the perceived point of need at any time?
If as you wish to say the Air power belonged to the Navy, might the Army lose out? or a converse argument be applied?
Where the RAF stays dispassionate from both forces we are able to provide the best service to both where we can, with our limited resources.
Yes you may say well we can do this better, but can you?
The RAF of all the forces has needed major financial backing to project into the future, but has been left behind in trying to drag the Army into the technological age and we have the Senior Service crying over their Carriers (which is a debate I shall not go into here)
The Army god bless them, cannot operate a technologically advanced aircraft, they do not have the expertise. They are trying to strip the RAF of Techies to operate their A/C, leaving capability gaps in the RAF now, I know of 5 JT/SAC Q-OPS now working at Wattisham for the AAC, taken from 1 A/C operating base.
If we were to go to a single service JHC force the AAC would not be able to cope with the Merlin, let alone the Chinook Mk2/3.
The RAF have become specialists now as a fighting force, maybe not as a trench line unit (apart from SH) but man for man you get more expertise from the RAF compared to the Navy/Army. As painful as that may seem to MASU, we are more than happy to carry out our own work on Helicopters, with RSS being the centre for excellence on fixed wing, why do the Navy need to get involved in A/C repair and salvage when we in the RAF have a complete Squadron dedicated to it?. The only time they need get involved is in off shore recovery; if we are talking of repair, let the RAF carry it out. We have seen the results of Navy/REME Engineers working on our A/C and it has not looked good.
If you want a cohesive and determined Air Force do not decentralise it, enhance it and allow them to build confidence in it. Do not let the politicians strip it away as you will be left wanting in the future, as you in the FAA/AAC will be looking for asset sharing and I hate to say but jointery is spelled ARMY.
Such is my experience in the RAF (6 yrs on JHC) at this moment in time. If we do not fight for our service we will lose it
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Originally Posted by Almost_done
Where the RAF stays dispassionate from both forces we are able to provide the best service to both where we can, with our limited resources.
Yes you may say well we can do this better, but can you?
The RAF of all the forces has needed major financial backing to project into the future, but has been left behind in trying to drag the Army into the technological age and we have the Senior Service crying over their Carriers (which is a debate I shall not go into here)
The Army god bless them, cannot operate a technologically advanced aircraft, they do not have the expertise. They are trying to strip the RAF of Techies to operate their A/C, leaving capability gaps in the RAF now, I know of 5 JT/SAC Q-OPS now working at Wattisham for the AAC, taken from 1 A/C operating base.
Yes you may say well we can do this better, but can you?
The RAF of all the forces has needed major financial backing to project into the future, but has been left behind in trying to drag the Army into the technological age and we have the Senior Service crying over their Carriers (which is a debate I shall not go into here)
The Army god bless them, cannot operate a technologically advanced aircraft, they do not have the expertise. They are trying to strip the RAF of Techies to operate their A/C, leaving capability gaps in the RAF now, I know of 5 JT/SAC Q-OPS now working at Wattisham for the AAC, taken from 1 A/C operating base.
You could also argue that your forces over manning has resulted in the Army assisting by giving employment to your spare techs, or are you also saying that there is an intellect gap between the RAF and Army techs, I don’t believe you really mean that. The Apache is quite complicated so the CH47 and Merlin probably wouldn't be beyond a tech, regardless of force.
The correct point is that we are all puppets of our masters (4* and up) who have been accustomed to our way of life (Service Ethos) All I can say I got use to the changes imposed over the past 24 years so you, and all of us, may have to face the inevitable and embrace it to make it work - we are all the same really - we all smell after a long run either toward a foe, or away!!!
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Originally Posted by Gnd
JHC a point in case.
Now as an engineer/technician of 21 yrs service with an in-depth knowledge of either Puma or Chinook Airframes, I may be offered some degree of latitude of my men, disposition work patterns etc. but no not when we go purple my JT’s/SACQ-OPS do not rank alongside Lance Jacks, I have Corporals older than most of the WO2, in fact I am a Sgt who is older then the WO1 but, we must bend to the strict hierarchical orders of the Army on joint ops. God, Ploche was an Army run disaster, did they listen to the RAF no, we know better was basically the reply.
What the Army/Navy forgets to remember is that the RAF train their men/women to question and not obey blindly. That is why we make better techies and will work when pressed to make the slot as we see the bigger picture.
I have had very poor treatment from Cpl/Sgt AAC before I was promoted to the dizzy heights of Sgt in RAF, now I am waiting to go on joined ops as a Sgt.
One final quote, from a Sgt Army RLC returning from Jordan with a RAF det, ‘I’m surprised the RAF have Junior Ranks as they all seem to be older then my SNCO’s’. All I will say is do not judge a RAF Tradesman by their Rank, we have Sac’s in rank for 15 yrs not by their attitude but by the system they work in.
Therefore these guys have a greater and a more in depth experience than the 3 yr Lance Jack and when on Joint Ops the Lance Jack starts to scream as the RAF lads don’t act the way he’s used to they dig their heels in, I don’t blame them, I support them and tell him to wind his neck in.
Anyway looking forward to TLE and SS comments
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I now believe that we have moved well of the subject and easing toward a rant in a totaly different area; it will happen and no open eyed human would miss this. Money will be the driver so lets just get on and I am sure the disparities will be over come.
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Originally Posted by Gnd
You could also argue that your forces over manning has resulted in the Army assisting by giving employment to your spare techs, or are you also saying that there is an intellect gap between the RAF and Army techs
2. The employment was forced in 4 of the post I was in contact with.
3. Bring the REME in to operate the Merlin and let us see if there is a technological gap between the forces.
What seems to me is the RAF is bearing the brunt of the changes compared to the other 2 forces, we are the ones losing our capability compared to the Royal Tank Regiment (the RAF Regt lose Armoured Div), Royal Artillery (The RAF Regt lose Rapier), we are being the test bed for JPA, compared to the other Services we are suffering the biggest cuts under the redundancy programme.
Don't tell me to face the inevitable, the changes over the past 21 yrs for me have left me with a bad taste in my mouth, therefore I am not happy and now looking forward to the last 24 months until I leave. Anyone willing to embrace and say these moves are good, well go and see a good psychiatrist, or a medium, or prostitute they’ll remove your money even faster than the present system (read Gov), but at least they will say thank you!
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Originally Posted by Gnd
I now believe that we have moved well of the subject and easing toward a rant in a totaly different area; it will happen and no open eyed human would miss this. Money will be the driver so lets just get on and I am sure the disparities will be over come.
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If you had worked forme I would have thanked you and I agree REME SSgts can be scary (even if you are senior to them) Enjoy the retirement and I hope the taste goes away,
Tightgit
ABIW wrote
So, after 4 pages that would be as or more sensitive than the airforce get when you mention abolishment then...........?
Has anyone else noticed how sensitive some people get as soon as you mention Apache
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Originally Posted by Gnd
No I am not, but I do have an open mind and the luxury of being able to look from outside.
Ahh from the outside, so I take it you have now left HMF and are working in Civvy Street?
I do have an open mind and I am willing to openly embrace new ideas and operations, however if in discussion, my or other peers ideas are quashed as they don't meet the hierarchies idea of the plan I get annoyed as they show little judgement and appreciation of those with experience. Then we get labelled as whiners as we show the flaws in the plan.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Disbanding the Air Force is barking as an idea, but the underlying thrust that the UK's military capability is diluted by excess (insert as appropriate):
duplication/triplication/redundancy/funding squabbles/top heavy management/inter-service rivalry (the negative kind)/disproportionate levels of senior officers/wastage/bureaucracy/lack of focus
...is largely a function of the existing multi-service structure. Not saying that a multi service structure can't be effective, just not the way the UK chooses to do it. When decisions are taken by individuals who depend on their "rice bowl" remaining the size it is, you get what you have today. Parochial, short sighted nonsense, masquerading as 'Jointery'.
Keep all the services, just get to grips with operating them effectively as a single cohesive force.
duplication/triplication/redundancy/funding squabbles/top heavy management/inter-service rivalry (the negative kind)/disproportionate levels of senior officers/wastage/bureaucracy/lack of focus
...is largely a function of the existing multi-service structure. Not saying that a multi service structure can't be effective, just not the way the UK chooses to do it. When decisions are taken by individuals who depend on their "rice bowl" remaining the size it is, you get what you have today. Parochial, short sighted nonsense, masquerading as 'Jointery'.
Keep all the services, just get to grips with operating them effectively as a single cohesive force.
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Still in, working hard but detached for a while. You are right, it does sound like a rant but the Army did the same with JHC. I think it works now, on the whole, as do the majority of others I speak to.
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Originally Posted by handysnaks
ABIW wrote
So, after 4 pages that would be as or more sensitive than the airforce get when you mention abolishment then...........?
So, after 4 pages that would be as or more sensitive than the airforce get when you mention abolishment then...........?
The RAF is the Flying branch of the Services why do we still allow the other 2 services to operate differently to us, imagine how much money, time and discussion would have been saved if we had taken over ALL military flying, no JPA 100A-01, no JHC, no JFH how much would that have saved the taxpayer?
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Originally Posted by Almost_done
Get rid of the AAC and the FAA then and amalgamate it in to the RAF, why do we have an Army/Navy flying club still then?
The RAF is the Flying branch of the Services why do we still allow the other 2 services to operate differently to us, imagine how much money, time and discussion would have been saved if we had taken over ALL military flying, no JPA 100A-01, no JHC, no JFH how much would that have saved the taxpayer?
The RAF is the Flying branch of the Services why do we still allow the other 2 services to operate differently to us, imagine how much money, time and discussion would have been saved if we had taken over ALL military flying, no JPA 100A-01, no JHC, no JFH how much would that have saved the taxpayer?
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Originally Posted by Gnd
Not that much as the saving would go into the redundancy package of short sighted peope who dont know how to behave - stop being so rude. Contrary to your popular belief - there is more to the world than protecting your back.