Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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From: Portsmouth
BTW she has set sail and we hadn’t enough munitions to fully stock her. 
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...bells-ringing/
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From: Devon
The BBC are currently showing a six part documentary based aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth during the CSG21 deployment - which included the embarkation of USMC jets as well as the RN/RAF ones. Like all naval documentaries it has included things such as people working in the galley, the watchkeepers on the bridge, firefighting and first aid training, close range gunnery, and sailors having to deal with gash.
Like many documentaries I have seen about US Navy carriers, it has included aircraft launches and recoveries, the aircraft being marshalled on deck, and replenishment at sea - the nuclear powered carriers still need supplying with aviation fuel, weapons, and provisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXg9QSdf79k&t=3s
The second episode was shown on BBC2 on Sunday 29 January, and featured things such as F-35B Lightnings being launched on missions against terrorists in Syria and into the Black Sea, jets being launched in response to approaching Russian aircraft under the control of one of the destroyers, and Merlins being launched for surface search and for ASW - presumably cued by one of the frigates. The talk (by the Strike Group staff types) was of 'protecting the force', as opposed to the over simplified 'protecting the carrier'.
The fourth episode (Sunday 12 February) featured ASW.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4wZ2wG...SIkaIECMiOmarEThe detection of a possible submarine by HMS Richmond and the use of sonobuoys by the Merlin reminds me of comment by a former USN aviator that a surface warship going active on sonar (particularly LFAS) gives the game away to the submarine looking for the task group. Whilst going active with your towed array allows you to cue the ASW helicopter with dipping sonar, passive detection means a larger search area, so dipping sonar is less useful.
Like many documentaries I have seen about US Navy carriers, it has included aircraft launches and recoveries, the aircraft being marshalled on deck, and replenishment at sea - the nuclear powered carriers still need supplying with aviation fuel, weapons, and provisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXg9QSdf79k&t=3s
The second episode was shown on BBC2 on Sunday 29 January, and featured things such as F-35B Lightnings being launched on missions against terrorists in Syria and into the Black Sea, jets being launched in response to approaching Russian aircraft under the control of one of the destroyers, and Merlins being launched for surface search and for ASW - presumably cued by one of the frigates. The talk (by the Strike Group staff types) was of 'protecting the force', as opposed to the over simplified 'protecting the carrier'.
The fourth episode (Sunday 12 February) featured ASW.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=DQ4wZ2wG...SIkaIECMiOmarEThe detection of a possible submarine by HMS Richmond and the use of sonobuoys by the Merlin reminds me of comment by a former USN aviator that a surface warship going active on sonar (particularly LFAS) gives the game away to the submarine looking for the task group. Whilst going active with your towed array allows you to cue the ASW helicopter with dipping sonar, passive detection means a larger search area, so dipping sonar is less useful.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
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From: Devon
UK and France commit to greater defence cooperation at Paris summit - MOD
The Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin said:
"As our leaders meet in Paris, the British and French Armed Forces are working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe. Now we will deepen our cooperation be it supporting Ukraine today or meeting the challenges of tomorrow, from security in the Arctic to carrier deployments in the Pacific.
We will also pursue a host of joint endeavours from intelligence sharing to complex weapon development. This reflects the mutual respect and confidence that exists between us, our shared technological ambitions, our unwavering commitment to NATO and our recognition that the security of Europe and the Atlantic is tied to that of the wider world."
During the summit, the UK and France agreed to coordinate deployments of our aircraft carriers to provide complementary and a more persistent European presence in regions of shared interest. This will mean routinely providing support for each other’s task groups, cooperating in exercises to prepare our carriers for warfighting, and explore opportunities for the United Kingdom and France to demonstrate the sequencing of more persistent European carrier strike group presence in the Indo-Pacific...
The Chief of Defence Staff, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin said:
"As our leaders meet in Paris, the British and French Armed Forces are working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe. Now we will deepen our cooperation be it supporting Ukraine today or meeting the challenges of tomorrow, from security in the Arctic to carrier deployments in the Pacific.
We will also pursue a host of joint endeavours from intelligence sharing to complex weapon development. This reflects the mutual respect and confidence that exists between us, our shared technological ambitions, our unwavering commitment to NATO and our recognition that the security of Europe and the Atlantic is tied to that of the wider world."
During the summit, the UK and France agreed to coordinate deployments of our aircraft carriers to provide complementary and a more persistent European presence in regions of shared interest. This will mean routinely providing support for each other’s task groups, cooperating in exercises to prepare our carriers for warfighting, and explore opportunities for the United Kingdom and France to demonstrate the sequencing of more persistent European carrier strike group presence in the Indo-Pacific...
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From: Ferrara
working together in response to Russian aggression in Europe, and to protect our shared values and interests across the globe.
there's a man planning a visit to French Polynesia if ever there was
there's a man planning a visit to French Polynesia if ever there was
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From: London/Oxford/New York
The unique selling point of the ASW helicopter is dipping sonar - and I remember the old and bold PWO(U) explaining that the 2087 sonar fitted to the ASW frigate and the Merlin's dipping sonar are meant to work together. He also said that to protect a force/task group (yes this is where the phrase 'task group ASW' was muttered) you use a carrier and multiple helicopters.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
Here is a video from Thales entitled Combined Sonar 2087 - Merlin ASW Operations:
Thales sonar - YouTube
I only found this the other night - I had been looking for ages.
Technology has moved on since the days of the Cold War, and sonars are more sensitive and longer ranged than before, having benefited from advances in things like digital signal processing. Modern sonars can achieve detection ranges far beyond ones in the 1980s, with the resulting employment of ASW helicopters being more effective.
Originally posted on another website on the thread about the role of the carrier in sea control.
The same applies to the F-35B fleet. CSG21 took 8 aircraft of 617 squadron on the carrier for the deployment (shame that they only managed to bring 7 back...) and that 8 was the entire front line strength of the UK F-35B force, a force that is the only UK dedicated attack force, that theoretically replaced the Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and the Tornado GR4 fleets. We learnt from the recent MoD announcements that the situation in 2023 is somewhat improved, they now have 12 F-35B Lightnings and 13 pilots on 617 Squadron. So that is the replacement for the aforementioned fleets with their capability and numbers. Sure things are going to improve, but immeasurably slowly! The 2nd front line F-35B Lightning squadron (809NAS) is due to form around the end of the year, even though they have yet to start the infrastructure build at Marham to house them! Then we learn that the 3rd operational squadron "will form in 2033." 2033! That's ten years after the 2nd squadron.
The carrier capability of the Royal Navy is an illusory fake, it is an intangible nothing with no numbers to make it worthwhile or effective. It is a great shame and could have been oh so different if we had VSO's with an ounce of a spine. And don't pass off the blame to the politicians. We still have one of the largest defence budgets in the world, it is just spent extremely badly.
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From: Ferrara
excellent post - whatever anyone's views on the RN carriers the rate of buying F-35's is a disgrace
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
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From: London/Oxford/New York
excellent post - whatever anyone's views on the RN carriers the rate of buying F-35's is a disgrace
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
From Flight 1st March this yearLockheed Martin’s head of international business says the producer of advanced aircraft is on track to complete Australia’s order of 72 F-35 Lightning II fighters by the end of 2023. Steve Over spoke with FlightGlobal at the Avalon Airshow outside Melbourne on 1 March.
“As of today, they have 59 airplanes, here in Australia,” says Over, noting that a 60th jet is complete and “waiting on the ramp” at Lockheed’s Fort Worth, Texas production facility. “We’ll deliver the remaining 12 aircraft before the end of this year,” he adds.
The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) hopes to declare full operational capability for its F-35 fleet in December 2023, Over notes.
And just to add some grist to the mill, Lockheed-Martin seriously embarrassed the MoD by announcing recently that the UK had moved it's deliveries to the right in order to save money.
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From: Phuket
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From: Devon
All fine and dandy WEBF, but you omit one major flaw. And that is that there are simply not enough aircraft to provide a meaningful capability! You trumpet the Merlin ASW capability, and I am sure that it is indeed world beating, but, and it is a huge but, how many HM2's did 820 NAS deploy onboard the carrier on CSG21? Was it 3? or 4? There are a total of 30 RN Merlin HM2's, and they have to equip the ASW Sonar equipped Type 23 Frigates, deploy to Prestwick on boomer cover, provide the AEW Crowsnest capability on dedicated aircraft, equip 824 NAS training squadron, provide trials aircraft for Boscombe Down RWTS, and on top of this there always seems to be 3 or 4 of them at Leonardo's Yeovil plant. A fine theoretical capability, but deployed in such penny packet numbers as to be basically meaningless.
The same applies to the F-35B fleet. CSG21 took 8 aircraft of 617 squadron on the carrier for the deployment (shame that they only managed to bring 7 back...) and that 8 was the entire front line strength of the UK F-35B force, a force that is the only UK dedicated attack force, that theoretically replaced the Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and the Tornado GR4 fleets. We learnt from the recent MoD announcements that the situation in 2023 is somewhat improved, they now have 12 F-35B Lightnings and 13 pilots on 617 Squadron. So that is the replacement for the aforementioned fleets with their capability and numbers. Sure things are going to improve, but immeasurably slowly! The 2nd front line F-35B Lightning squadron (809NAS) is due to form around the end of the year, even though they have yet to start the infrastructure build at Marham to house them! Then we learn that the 3rd operational squadron "will form in 2033." 2033! That's ten years after the 2nd squadron.
The carrier capability of the Royal Navy is an illusory fake, it is an intangible nothing with no numbers to make it worthwhile or effective. It is a great shame and could have been oh so different if we had VSO's with an ounce of a spine. And don't pass off the blame to the politicians. We still have one of the largest defence budgets in the world, it is just spent extremely badly.
Have I ever defended the slow build up of the F-35B/Lightning force? No!
Have I ever defended the decision taken a very long time ago to only upgrade thirty out of forty odd Merlin HM1s to HM2 standard? No! I am pretty certain that I expressed a view about it on some PPRuNe thread, but I suppose we were lucky that those who argued to get rid of all ASW capabilities (a thing of the past they said) were not listened to. I seem to remember wondering out loud why all the Type 23s were not refitted with sonar 2087 and Merlin.
820NAS took seven Merlin HM2s aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth for CSG21. Three of these had the Crowsnest fit, but supposedly could be changed back to ASW if needed - 'role fit' and all that jazz.
The squadron has seven helicopters on HMS Queen Elizabeth including four fitted for anti-submarine warfare and three Merlin Mk2s converted through the Crowsnest programme for use in airborne surveillance and control.Commander Varley, who is a qualified helicopter pilot and instructor, added: “The carrier deployment this year is the greatest achievement that 820 squadron has had on its books for the past 10 years. This is the coming together of years of planning and hard work.
"We have the reintroduction of capabilities and new technology in our airframes, in order that we can embark as a complete squadron to support our ships, as the UK reaffirms itself as a global power.
“In terms of the number of people we need to operate those aircraft, we will have approximately 60 aircrew and about 130 engineers and other support staff. That will give us the ability to fly aircraft 24 hours a day with between two and three lines, constantly supporting and protecting the carrier and the strike group.”
As you say, in addition to CSG21, the Merlin force also had to provide frigate flights, cover the SSBNs as they put to sea, put cabs aboard HMS Prince of Wales for working up, and support training and trials. Assuming we had three aboard Prince of Wales, then we could assume that ten could be put aboard one carrier.
UK’s newest aircraft carrier prepares for front-line operations- 06 September 21
HMS Prince of Wales sailed on Sunday from Portsmouth for a more concerted spell at sea, during which she will embark four F-35Bs plus Merlin helicopters – the first time a fast-jet and helicopter air group has operated side-by-side from her deck and a “step change in complexity” for training the handlers who marshal the aircraft on the deck and to and from the hangar, the aviation team in Flying Control who direct all flying operations, and the engineering team which maintains the state-of-the-art aircraft.
Elsewhere it was commented that a greater number could have been deployed for a shorter deployment or closer to home. When the Merlin did ASW from the CVS the standard squadron size was six aircraft. I suspect that they could achieve that and three Crowsnest cabs in the NATO theatre.
In the old days, the Invincible class carried nine ASW Sea Kings to provide 'Ripple 3' coverage - two aircraft on station and on in transit to/from the carrier. The nine aircraft also kept one on stand by for SAR, and were tasked with VERTREP, HDS, etc. The Merlin has something like 20% greater endurance than the Sea King, and often SAR/VERTREP sorties will frequently be picked up by Jungly Merlin HC4s, so arguably less are needed.
Other points:
1. The Crowsnest role is meant to be moving to some sort of UAS system by the end of the decade, allowing the Merlins to concentrate on ASW etc. I have doubts about the feasibility due to the amount of raw data that would need to be processed without people and/or sent back to the ship in a congested and contested electromagnetic spectrum.
2. One of the reasons for posting that Thales video was to show that we use ASW helicopters differently than in the past, low frequency sonars allow long range detection beyond what older sonars could achieve, and allow for a more effective employment of helicopters. In the old days the ASW cabs spent a lot of time dipping at random - nowadays they would be cued.
3. In a task group (including CSG21) it makes sense to collocate the ASW Merlins on the carrier for reasons of swapping crews, better support and maintenance facilities, better communications and coordination, and a larger more stable deck. Obviously when operating without a carrier, such as the Towed Array Patrol Ship, then Merlin is embarked for ASW.
4. There is a plan to augment the crewed aircraft with uncrewed ones to do things like drop sonobuoys - see here.
Trials will test the capability of the aircraft to drop “sonobuoys”; small tube-shaped buoys that track and communicate submarine activity enabling the aircraft to alert a crewed helicopter and call for support if a submarine is located. Designed to operate at lower cost than crewed aircraft, capabilities derived from the demonstrator could also reduce the exposure of Royal Navy personnel to hostile threats.
You may remember the era when people thought that state versus state competition and conflict was a thing of the past, things like ASW, air defence, heavy armour, and others were no longer needed...
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 18th March 2023 at 01:03.
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From: Ferrara
todays Times says the bill for the PoW fix is now over £ 20mm (original estimate £ 3mm) - and she's stuck in the dock until 23rd May due to tides and delays on the fix
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From: Portsmouth
What you ought to have added was that "the bill" has risen because the package will now include upgrade work that was going to be done in Portsmouth.
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From: Devon
In my previous ASW related post, I forgot to include this video - an interview with someone who had an interesting career after joining the Royal Navy partly to escape academia, opted for an Engineering route as he would get a degree that way, and they as an Air Engineer Officer applied to become a Maintenance Test Pilot and ended up doing front line tours on the ASW Sea King and the Lynx:
He mentions his time flying the ASW Sea King from HMS Hermes in the days before Sea Harrier, when she was being used as an ASW carrier. If less had been made of carriers operating in the Indian Ocean and Far East back then, and more of their NATO role then we all would have been better off. The staff work relating to the proposed new carriers in the early 1960s was all based around East of Suez scenarios which was one of the reasons they were vulnerable to the politicians' axe, which led the the axing of the large carriers, yet the need to put multiple ASW helicopters aboard a single ship as part of NATO ASW capabilities led to the through deck cruiser idea, which was large enough to carry a few V/STOL aircraft to deal with the Soviet Bears that aided the Soviet submarines with reconnaissance and long range targeting - and luckily enough we had Harrier which could be converted to Sea Harrier and given a radar.
The Americans committed over half their carriers to the NATO theatre. It has been discussed at length in various places, not just PPRuNe: Discussion regarding the Sea Control role of the carrier - starting with NATO and the Cold War
The interview also mentions the teaming of carrier based helicopters doing the hunting, and the frigate/destroyer based Wasps/Lynx (and Wildcat these days) to deliver the weapons.
He mentions his time flying the ASW Sea King from HMS Hermes in the days before Sea Harrier, when she was being used as an ASW carrier. If less had been made of carriers operating in the Indian Ocean and Far East back then, and more of their NATO role then we all would have been better off. The staff work relating to the proposed new carriers in the early 1960s was all based around East of Suez scenarios which was one of the reasons they were vulnerable to the politicians' axe, which led the the axing of the large carriers, yet the need to put multiple ASW helicopters aboard a single ship as part of NATO ASW capabilities led to the through deck cruiser idea, which was large enough to carry a few V/STOL aircraft to deal with the Soviet Bears that aided the Soviet submarines with reconnaissance and long range targeting - and luckily enough we had Harrier which could be converted to Sea Harrier and given a radar.
The Americans committed over half their carriers to the NATO theatre. It has been discussed at length in various places, not just PPRuNe: Discussion regarding the Sea Control role of the carrier - starting with NATO and the Cold War
The interview also mentions the teaming of carrier based helicopters doing the hunting, and the frigate/destroyer based Wasps/Lynx (and Wildcat these days) to deliver the weapons.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 3rd April 2023 at 07:51.
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From: Hampshire
WEBF I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but 'A hae ma doots' about the wisdom of all this. IMO the purpose of ASW Frigates (of which we will be losing another one - Montrose - next month ) in a CSG is to extend the detection range; with the probability of long range sub-launched hypersonic missiles in the not too distant future they need the best RW ASW available as part of their weapons fit. With an increasing threat from AUVs, which are likely to be more numerous and harder to detect the ASW screen is going to need to be more comprehensive, 360 degree and extend further out. To me ASW UAVs only make real sense as ''Loyal Pingmen' multiplying the effectiveness of the manned cabs, I am still unaware of ASW UAVs being armed - so as you say the manned cab would have to prosecute in a conflict situation and where does the decision to change to CERTSUB sit with the O arriving on scene (at max chat) or on the controlling ship ? I understand the 814 NAS supports 3 ship's flights and 3 a/c for defence of home waters so Merlins have to be rationed between the FFs. With the OCU 824 NAS having 8 and an average 5 in maintenance, the front-line numbers availilable in the MPH role are IMHO are ridiculously limited. I do feel that the UAV push is weighted to cost and addressing aircrew recruitment, training and retention problems as opposed to increased opertaional effectiveness.
Though originally on QNLZ the three CSG21 Junglies from 845 NAS B flt were operated from Fort Victoria in as you say COD/Taxi Service (MITLE), SAR ('Plane Guard') and CSAR roles.
As a side note on Crowsnest: the plan is/was for all Merlins HM2s to be fitted for but not with (which will include additional Link 16 functionality at some point) and for 10 kits IOC Q2 2023, FOC in 24/25 and, as far as I know, (Crowsnest) OSD and replacement with ASaC UAV is still c.2030,
Anyway enough incoherent Saturday morning ramblings.
Though originally on QNLZ the three CSG21 Junglies from 845 NAS B flt were operated from Fort Victoria in as you say COD/Taxi Service (MITLE), SAR ('Plane Guard') and CSAR roles.
As a side note on Crowsnest: the plan is/was for all Merlins HM2s to be fitted for but not with (which will include additional Link 16 functionality at some point) and for 10 kits IOC Q2 2023, FOC in 24/25 and, as far as I know, (Crowsnest) OSD and replacement with ASaC UAV is still c.2030,
Anyway enough incoherent Saturday morning ramblings.
Last edited by SLXOwft; 6th April 2023 at 09:25. Reason: Dervish politely pointing out my mistake re Link 16
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From: Devon
WEBF I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but 'A hae ma doots' about the wisdom of all this. IMO the purpose of ASW Frigates (of which we will be losing another one - Montrose - next month ) in a CSG is to extend the detection range; with the probability of long range sub-launched hypersonic missiles in the not too distant future they need the best RW ASW available as part of their weapons fit. With an increasing threat from AUVs, which are likely to be more numerous and harder to detect the ASW screen is going to need to be more comprehensive, 360 degree and extend further out. To me ASW UAVs only make real sense as ''Loyal Pingmen' multiplying the effectiveness of the manned cabs, I am still unaware of ASW UAVs being armed - so as you say the manned cab would have to prosecute in a conflict situation and where does the decision to change to CERTSUB sit with the O arriving on scene (at max chat) or on the controlling ship ? I understand the 814 NAS supports 3 ship's flights and 3 a/c for defence of home waters so Merlins have to be rationed between the FFs. With the OCU 824 NAS having 8 and an average 5 in maintenance, the front-line numbers availilable in the MPH role are IMHO are ridiculously limited. I do feel that the UAV push is weighted to cost and addressing aircrew recruitment, training and retention problems as opposed to increased opertaional effectiveness.
Though originally on QNLZ the three CSG21 Junglies from 845 NAS B flt were operated from Fort Victoria in as you say COD/Taxi Service (MITLE), SAR ('Plane Guard') and CSAR roles.
As a side note on Crowsnest: the plan is/was for all Merlins HM2s to be fitted for but not with (which will include Link 16 at some point) and for 10 kits IOC Q2 2023, FOC in 24/25 and, as far as I know, (Crowsnest) OSD and replacement with ASaC UAV is still c.2030,
Anyway enough incoherent Saturday morning ramblings.
Though originally on QNLZ the three CSG21 Junglies from 845 NAS B flt were operated from Fort Victoria in as you say COD/Taxi Service (MITLE), SAR ('Plane Guard') and CSAR roles.
As a side note on Crowsnest: the plan is/was for all Merlins HM2s to be fitted for but not with (which will include Link 16 at some point) and for 10 kits IOC Q2 2023, FOC in 24/25 and, as far as I know, (Crowsnest) OSD and replacement with ASaC UAV is still c.2030,
Anyway enough incoherent Saturday morning ramblings.
A lot to reply to there! In the old days we used to have two ASW Sea King squadrons for carrier deployment, but these days we only have one carrier designated Merlin squadron, having only upgraded thirty Merlin HM1s. If the two/three Merlins aboard HMS Prince of Wales had been sent aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth for CSG21...
820NAS had a lot of aircrew during CSG21 - sixty aircrew for seven cabs.
As you say the ASW UAV is intended to augment the Merlins by dropping sonobuoys at range from the Pinger and acting as a radio relay. It cannot replace capabilities such as dipping sonar, and is not intended to carry weapons.
At the time when we are meant to be growing the Navy losing two frigates seems odd, but things like refit costs and personnel numbers came into play, and the general idea is to get as many ships properly manned and to sea. Although the Type 23 was designed for ASW, both Montrose and Monmouth were ones that did not get the update with 2087 sonar and Merlin capability.
ASW went out of fashion during the 'state versus state conflict is a thing of the past' era.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 6th April 2023 at 08:29.
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Royal Marines have been deployed to the Korean peninsula for the first time since the Korean War.
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Royal Marines have been deployed to the Korean peninsula for the first time since the Korean War.
B Coy, 40 Commando conducted amphibious exercises near Pohang with 🇺🇸USMC and 🇰🇷Republic of Korea Marine Corps.
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From: Hampshire
Posting partly to mention my Link 16 correction in #6784.
WEBF, I'm not sure that is a lot to support 24/7 operations on a 6+ month deployment; my assumption is that they were using formed crews, min-3 for the baggers and min-4 for the pingers; so no more than 2 crews per cab plus 20%.
Although lacking 2087 the GP T23s did retain some ASW capability. Operating a role like pre-WW2 cruisers, I would think a ship acting alone should carry the most capable ASW aircraft it can, the problem being Merlin doesn't' mount AS(u)Ms so can only rely on the ship against a surface threats. Given the inability to carry a mixed flight and engagement with a surface threat more likely, Wildcat with Martlet/Sea Venom has the priority. I think Montrose had a Merlin (HM.1 ?) flight at some point.
'820NAS had a lot of aircrew during CSG21 - sixty aircrew for seven cabs.'
WEBF, I'm not sure that is a lot to support 24/7 operations on a 6+ month deployment; my assumption is that they were using formed crews, min-3 for the baggers and min-4 for the pingers; so no more than 2 crews per cab plus 20%.
Although lacking 2087 the GP T23s did retain some ASW capability. Operating a role like pre-WW2 cruisers, I would think a ship acting alone should carry the most capable ASW aircraft it can, the problem being Merlin doesn't' mount AS(u)Ms so can only rely on the ship against a surface threats. Given the inability to carry a mixed flight and engagement with a surface threat more likely, Wildcat with Martlet/Sea Venom has the priority. I think Montrose had a Merlin (HM.1 ?) flight at some point.
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Happy beer day!
Happy #NationalBeerDay. In 1944, the minelayer HMS Menestheus was converted into a floating brewery for British personnel in the Pacific, producing 250 barrels of Davy Jones ale a week. The Royal Navy rejected an offer from the U.S. Navy to buy Menestheus for £1 million…
Happy #NationalBeerDay. In 1944, the minelayer HMS Menestheus was converted into a floating brewery for British personnel in the Pacific, producing 250 barrels of Davy Jones ale a week. The Royal Navy rejected an offer from the U.S. Navy to buy Menestheus for £1 million…
Joined: Apr 2010
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
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From: Herefordshire
Happy beer day!
Happy #NationalBeerDay. In 1944, the minelayer HMS Menestheus was converted into a floating brewery for British personnel in the Pacific, producing 250 barrels of Davy Jones ale a week. The Royal Navy rejected an offer from the U.S. Navy to buy Menestheus for £1 million.
Happy #NationalBeerDay. In 1944, the minelayer HMS Menestheus was converted into a floating brewery for British personnel in the Pacific, producing 250 barrels of Davy Jones ale a week. The Royal Navy rejected an offer from the U.S. Navy to buy Menestheus for £1 million.