SAS soldier quits Army in disgust at 'illegal' American tactics in Iraq
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Why not go the whole hog and demand Saddam back 7gcbc? After all wasn't he the democratically elected leader? And he certainly knew how to maintain control didn't he? Oh yes, I forgot about the 400,000 dead he was responsible for but I'm sure that's OK with you, at least he was a local boy.
Those bloody irresponsible Yankees had the nerve to come along and topple this much loved mass-murderer and genial dictator and create the environment where real democracy stands a chance.......bastards!
Those bloody irresponsible Yankees had the nerve to come along and topple this much loved mass-murderer and genial dictator and create the environment where real democracy stands a chance.......bastards!
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Anyone got any comments on the ( non ) interview with this gentleman on BBC Radio Four this morning ? He did not come over as very bright. Perhaps his reasons for leaving the Regiment are genuine ? 
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Originally Posted by sled dog
Anyone got any comments on the ( non ) interview with this gentleman on BBC Radio Four this morning ? He did not come over as very bright. Perhaps his reasons for leaving the Regiment are genuine ?
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Why do we not hear of water, electricity, sanitation, schools and so forth, we hear a reasonable amount of this from the British side, but none from the US.
Remember media studies 101? “Good news is not news”
US and Israel reacted recently to the democratically elected Hammas
Saddam + Hammas = good
In your own time, carry on.
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Originally Posted by Maple 01
Ah, sorry, check the interweb - the Yanks are doing lots of infrastructure and hearts and minds stuff, it's just the media don't want to report it for some reason Remember media studies 101? “Good news is not news”
I see where you're coming from......US + Israel = Bad
Saddam + Hammas = good
In your own time, carry on.
Remember media studies 101? “Good news is not news”I see where you're coming from......US + Israel = Bad
Saddam + Hammas = good
In your own time, carry on.
What he appears to be saying is that the US world 'crusade' leads off with 'democracy for all', yet when a party they don't like is democratically elected (even the UN agree with this one) they change the rules of the game.
'Democracy for all (as long as its a nice pro-US party elected)' seems to be the reality.
Although Israel flouts many UN resolutions with its continual occupation of Palestinian areas you don't see the US standing up in the UN demanding action take, why? Because they are one and the same for all intents and purposes. Israeli money funds the US and the US arms Israel. They call the UK 'the 51st state', perhaps people should look a little further east for the true 51st state.
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ah yes a media conspiracy, sure, the media are not reporting the good stuff...... lol, this from embedded journos, maybe there is NO GOOD stuff to tell ?
Some of us got to read reports from the regional reconstruction people on the ground doing the hearts and minds stuff rather than relied on a discredited media working to it's own agenda - but that can't be true, can it?
now, apply the safety, mag off, cock the weapon, check your 'facts', release the working parts and carry on
edited for spooling mistakz
Last edited by Maple 01; 14th Mar 2006 at 10:16.
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Having a rant will solve nothing because it so obviously turns off the side that are trying to be persuaded.
American policy is not global policy because american values are not shared by the rest of the world. Democracy and freedom of speech is not a unique american value and it can and should exist globally but the net result will be far removed from the american view. Priorities are different elsewhere.
I question the american and british supposed priority for democracy when they chose to not return to the UN for a mandate to go to war - this they would not have got from that "global democratic body". Rather than risk defeat they chose their own version of an existing resolution as their mandate - but continually do nothing in support of resolutions ignored by other states (Israel most notably). Hypocracy - oh yes.
So what now. Well my 2c don't add up to much but with Sunnis and Shiites against each other in a war ravaged land with extremist elements inciting the differences in a violent fashion, then success is a long way off. Regional states, perhaps under an umbrella country may stand a chance. But here is a key difference - those states would need some kind of religous boundary perhaps rather than geographical - which may advance later. Only a minority of muslims are extreme - just as a minority of christians are, however many more muslims practice their religon actively than declare a lapsed status - unlike christianity.
Education - balanced, fair and honest without greed and bias has to be the long term goal, but where does that exist anywhere in the world?
And to touch back on the original thread: this gentleman has, in my view, been honourable in supporting his colleagues as he draws his pay to do, but on returning has questioned his part in those proceedings and resigned. We are a democracy, so allowing him to write a book is of course, a right. Someone with alternate views can write a book to counter argue if so desired. I believe he stands for what is good about the western democracies - support to his country while exercising his rights to question the way his country is run. I for one, am proud that we live in a country where that is possible, and it is these ideals that we can present to others.
American policy is not global policy because american values are not shared by the rest of the world. Democracy and freedom of speech is not a unique american value and it can and should exist globally but the net result will be far removed from the american view. Priorities are different elsewhere.
I question the american and british supposed priority for democracy when they chose to not return to the UN for a mandate to go to war - this they would not have got from that "global democratic body". Rather than risk defeat they chose their own version of an existing resolution as their mandate - but continually do nothing in support of resolutions ignored by other states (Israel most notably). Hypocracy - oh yes.
So what now. Well my 2c don't add up to much but with Sunnis and Shiites against each other in a war ravaged land with extremist elements inciting the differences in a violent fashion, then success is a long way off. Regional states, perhaps under an umbrella country may stand a chance. But here is a key difference - those states would need some kind of religous boundary perhaps rather than geographical - which may advance later. Only a minority of muslims are extreme - just as a minority of christians are, however many more muslims practice their religon actively than declare a lapsed status - unlike christianity.
Education - balanced, fair and honest without greed and bias has to be the long term goal, but where does that exist anywhere in the world?
And to touch back on the original thread: this gentleman has, in my view, been honourable in supporting his colleagues as he draws his pay to do, but on returning has questioned his part in those proceedings and resigned. We are a democracy, so allowing him to write a book is of course, a right. Someone with alternate views can write a book to counter argue if so desired. I believe he stands for what is good about the western democracies - support to his country while exercising his rights to question the way his country is run. I for one, am proud that we live in a country where that is possible, and it is these ideals that we can present to others.
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NC43 - apparently we both think this individual acted honourably - but neither of us are saluting him beyond that. If he publishes then we can judge on his account at that time. I think it is right that he should be able to - but for sure any discomfiture for the government in his present actions or in a subsequent book will have a knock on effect for those serving. It might be good if clearer and more honest decision taking is made by politicians but equally it can be bad for providing propaganda to the extremists. Is that not a price for democracy?
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Indifference
NUTCRACKER43 - I understand what you're trying to say but ultimately there was no evidence.
You're probably right but where was the evidence? Last time I checked we lived in a country where you're innocent until proven guilty.
As for whether he gets a book deal or not who cares...if it's worth reading people will buy it. Those of you so quick to criticise him for selling out I think are unfair. He went to Iraq on numerous occasions for his country and I can assure you he did it for a hell of a lot less money than the man who sent him there. I doubt he has a £4m mortgage anyway. Writing a book wouldn't be my cup of tea and I doubt I'd read it if he did but I'm not going to criticise him for it. I mean do you honestly think Tony Blair won't be writing a book when he stands down? lead by example after all...
I'm prepared to go out out on a limb and venture that most of the British military are against the reasons for war but are proud of the way we conduct ourselves (for the most part) as a military force. Enforcing your morals on other people because they're "better than other peoples morals" isn't an excuse. Nor is the "well Saddam killed 400,000 so we're better than him" philosophy.
With no end in sight 400,000 might not be too far away. The problem is that the world was lied to about the reasons, the UN were bypassed in order to achieve ulterior agendas and the reasons we went into this war were not those of the greater good.
Let's hope the justifications for the next fuel stop in Iran are 'adjusted' a little more 'intelligently'...
...weapons inspectors, I do not think, had unimpeded access to all areas...as I understand it, many of them were not convinced that there were no WsMD...
As for whether he gets a book deal or not who cares...if it's worth reading people will buy it. Those of you so quick to criticise him for selling out I think are unfair. He went to Iraq on numerous occasions for his country and I can assure you he did it for a hell of a lot less money than the man who sent him there. I doubt he has a £4m mortgage anyway. Writing a book wouldn't be my cup of tea and I doubt I'd read it if he did but I'm not going to criticise him for it. I mean do you honestly think Tony Blair won't be writing a book when he stands down? lead by example after all...
I'm prepared to go out out on a limb and venture that most of the British military are against the reasons for war but are proud of the way we conduct ourselves (for the most part) as a military force. Enforcing your morals on other people because they're "better than other peoples morals" isn't an excuse. Nor is the "well Saddam killed 400,000 so we're better than him" philosophy.
With no end in sight 400,000 might not be too far away. The problem is that the world was lied to about the reasons, the UN were bypassed in order to achieve ulterior agendas and the reasons we went into this war were not those of the greater good.
Let's hope the justifications for the next fuel stop in Iran are 'adjusted' a little more 'intelligently'...
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There are quite strong feelings here that the war was not justified - perhaps more this side of the Atlantic than the other. I make no further comment on the reasons good or bad, other than my personal view that without a fresh and clear mandate from the UN then I could not support it. That does not mean I believe we should extract troops tomorrow and leave the mess we helped to create.
It is a sad fact that with 24 hour news channels, internet and the like we live in a for-the-moment society so while I might prefer that dirty laundry is hung out when it is safe to do so - it will have no effect then. Today's government sent us to war and it is those politicians making decisions now. That they should be questioned now is imperative because the immediacy of their jobs will concentrate their minds far more than when they are writing their memoirs later. And importantly, if heads roll in response to mistakes made, later politicians will think more about the consequence of their decisions.
I was proud to be a part of and still am proud of the UK military. Now out of the service I can question any order given - when serving you have to obey first. It is important that politicans are reminded on a regular basis of what that means .
It is a sad fact that with 24 hour news channels, internet and the like we live in a for-the-moment society so while I might prefer that dirty laundry is hung out when it is safe to do so - it will have no effect then. Today's government sent us to war and it is those politicians making decisions now. That they should be questioned now is imperative because the immediacy of their jobs will concentrate their minds far more than when they are writing their memoirs later. And importantly, if heads roll in response to mistakes made, later politicians will think more about the consequence of their decisions.
I was proud to be a part of and still am proud of the UK military. Now out of the service I can question any order given - when serving you have to obey first. It is important that politicans are reminded on a regular basis of what that means .
SASless,
Brit tactics vs US tacics:
I was in Baghdad for a while last year and was involved in many operations and convoys, working alongside US troops and British ones (yes there are Brits in Baghdad). Without exception every single convoy I went on with the US forces had an incident; conversely every convoy I went on with the British forces was without incident. Please note that this was same routes, same times, same size convoys, same time of the month etc. The only real diference was the tactics used. We tried to advise the US commanders that a more restrained approach would reap dividends but it fell on deaf ears. Furthermore in the whole time I was there I did not see a single foot patrol in the Green Zone, the only view the US troops had of Baghdad was either from the top of a Humvee travelling at 60mph doorhandling poor Iraqis off the road or through a 4'' by 4'' vision slot......
Oh and the US troops had an unnerving habit of pointing .50cal machine guns at everybody including me
Empirical evidence doesn't lie.
Brit tactics vs US tacics:
I was in Baghdad for a while last year and was involved in many operations and convoys, working alongside US troops and British ones (yes there are Brits in Baghdad). Without exception every single convoy I went on with the US forces had an incident; conversely every convoy I went on with the British forces was without incident. Please note that this was same routes, same times, same size convoys, same time of the month etc. The only real diference was the tactics used. We tried to advise the US commanders that a more restrained approach would reap dividends but it fell on deaf ears. Furthermore in the whole time I was there I did not see a single foot patrol in the Green Zone, the only view the US troops had of Baghdad was either from the top of a Humvee travelling at 60mph doorhandling poor Iraqis off the road or through a 4'' by 4'' vision slot......
Oh and the US troops had an unnerving habit of pointing .50cal machine guns at everybody including me
Empirical evidence doesn't lie.
SASless,
Note that these were purely military convoys in the Baghdad AO not logs convoys along the MSRs and also note that I did say this was personal experience over a protracted period - I did not say that no Brit convoy was ever subjected to an incident, just that no Brit convoy I was on was subjected to an incident.
Pointing a .50 cal does put the wind up an enemy but it really irritates a friend
At the risk of telling you a war story, the most irritating thing a US trooper did to me was to shoot the front tyres of my vehicle out.........and my vehicle was part of the convoy he was protecting...... 'twas a few stray shots from the full magazine he decided to fire a nothing in particular!!
We did have words afterwards!
When I was there the US had full responsibility for the Green Zone however, that may have changed to some degree now.
Note that these were purely military convoys in the Baghdad AO not logs convoys along the MSRs and also note that I did say this was personal experience over a protracted period - I did not say that no Brit convoy was ever subjected to an incident, just that no Brit convoy I was on was subjected to an incident.
Pointing a .50 cal does put the wind up an enemy but it really irritates a friend
At the risk of telling you a war story, the most irritating thing a US trooper did to me was to shoot the front tyres of my vehicle out.........and my vehicle was part of the convoy he was protecting...... 'twas a few stray shots from the full magazine he decided to fire a nothing in particular!!
We did have words afterwards!
When I was there the US had full responsibility for the Green Zone however, that may have changed to some degree now.
