Exit levels?
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Exit levels?
Heard a rumour that the percentage of pilots taking their option this year, is as high as 80%. Anyone got any further details? Surely this can't be right!!!
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TP,
Not fishy, but perhaps crabby! Certainly not underhand as you would suggest. Maybe I need to put the comma in my profile between the two; (nice use of semi-colon don't you think) ISS seems like such a long time ago!
Out of the PMA loop, so just an honest query.
I had also heard the word 'unsustainable' used by others. If this figure is correct, then are we in for a increase/re-implementation of the retention bonus. Oh I do hope so.......
Not fishy, but perhaps crabby! Certainly not underhand as you would suggest. Maybe I need to put the comma in my profile between the two; (nice use of semi-colon don't you think) ISS seems like such a long time ago!
Out of the PMA loop, so just an honest query.
I had also heard the word 'unsustainable' used by others. If this figure is correct, then are we in for a increase/re-implementation of the retention bonus. Oh I do hope so.......
Doesn't matter how many aircrew are leaving.......
after LEAN and the techy slashing, you'll have very little to fly anyway. Look at Lyneham.
after LEAN and the techy slashing, you'll have very little to fly anyway. Look at Lyneham.
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I hope this is not true as the ones who suffer most are us poor souls further down the food chain, as we wave a sad goodbye to all the top gezzers whilst contemplating what the buffoons that remain can do to make our sad existence even sadder 
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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pms 32dd
Six months or 12 months - there's not much difference; once someone has decided to leave they become non-effective quite quickly. Then it's more work for the rest of us!
bowley
I heard that there was a smart plan to entice people to stay by using the new pension scheme and the PA spine - but I understand that was blown away as it was too expensive! So I wouldn't hold out too much hope about a bonus if I were you.
Six months or 12 months - there's not much difference; once someone has decided to leave they become non-effective quite quickly. Then it's more work for the rest of us!
bowley
I heard that there was a smart plan to entice people to stay by using the new pension scheme and the PA spine - but I understand that was blown away as it was too expensive! So I wouldn't hold out too much hope about a bonus if I were you.
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LFFC
I don't understand your comments ref the PA Spine and the new pension.
Being on the PA Spine and leaving on the new pension scheme at 55 gives an increase in cash. In my case it equates to an additional £4000 a year pension and an additional £11000 tax free lump sum. Assuming I live until 75 this is a total of £87000 more than I would have received on the old pension scheme
Unless I am missing somthing this looks like more cash for staying until 55. Am I missing somthing?
Flo
I don't understand your comments ref the PA Spine and the new pension.
Being on the PA Spine and leaving on the new pension scheme at 55 gives an increase in cash. In my case it equates to an additional £4000 a year pension and an additional £11000 tax free lump sum. Assuming I live until 75 this is a total of £87000 more than I would have received on the old pension scheme
Unless I am missing somthing this looks like more cash for staying until 55. Am I missing somthing?
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Axial Flo
I'd heard that moves were afoot to automatically swap CS sqn ldrs to the PA spine once they achieved a certain age and it became clear that they wouldn't manage further promotion. This would have assured them of getting the bigger pension if they were on the new pension scheme.
As it is at the moment, flight commanders have to see their subordinates rapidly overtaking them in both their pay and pension prospects. So is it any wonder that CS sqn ldr aircrew are becoming disillusioned and leaving for other employers that might value them more?
Unfortunately, their subordinates detect that malaise and it spreads. Sadly, it doesn't seem that anyone has the power or the foresight to do anything about it.
I'd heard that moves were afoot to automatically swap CS sqn ldrs to the PA spine once they achieved a certain age and it became clear that they wouldn't manage further promotion. This would have assured them of getting the bigger pension if they were on the new pension scheme.
As it is at the moment, flight commanders have to see their subordinates rapidly overtaking them in both their pay and pension prospects. So is it any wonder that CS sqn ldr aircrew are becoming disillusioned and leaving for other employers that might value them more?
Unfortunately, their subordinates detect that malaise and it spreads. Sadly, it doesn't seem that anyone has the power or the foresight to do anything about it.
Last edited by LFFC; 14th Dec 2005 at 22:28.
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LFFC
I now see what you mean and your earlier post makes perfect sense.
I guess the message is clear. If you are a CS Sqn Ldr pilot and you can't guarantee making Gp Capt or higher by 55, and there is no prospect of being offered PA Spine, then the only rational option from a financial perspective is to go to the airlines.
Flo
I now see what you mean and your earlier post makes perfect sense.
I guess the message is clear. If you are a CS Sqn Ldr pilot and you can't guarantee making Gp Capt or higher by 55, and there is no prospect of being offered PA Spine, then the only rational option from a financial perspective is to go to the airlines.
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Axial Flo
Yeah - sad ain't it! The full impact of that situation has been clear for a couple of years and I understand that desk officers have been screaming about it - yet nothing's been done to "redress the balance".
So.......
If you're an aircrew flt lt aged less than about 32 then taking promotion may not be a major issue as you'll probably get further promotion to wg cdr in the future.
If you're aged over about 32 but not past your 38/40 point, you must think very hard about accepting promotion. Chances are that you'll never get to wg cdr in this shrinking RAF so you'd be better off as a PA flt lt than as a CS sqn ldr. But of course, they may not assimilate you as a flt lt! So it's a gamble. The consensus seems to be - take the promotion, then leave at your 38/40 point because there's little incentive to stay!
If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!
Faced with those decisions, it's hardly surprising that flt lts are making career choices at a very early age!
Yeah - sad ain't it! The full impact of that situation has been clear for a couple of years and I understand that desk officers have been screaming about it - yet nothing's been done to "redress the balance".
So.......
If you're an aircrew flt lt aged less than about 32 then taking promotion may not be a major issue as you'll probably get further promotion to wg cdr in the future.
If you're aged over about 32 but not past your 38/40 point, you must think very hard about accepting promotion. Chances are that you'll never get to wg cdr in this shrinking RAF so you'd be better off as a PA flt lt than as a CS sqn ldr. But of course, they may not assimilate you as a flt lt! So it's a gamble. The consensus seems to be - take the promotion, then leave at your 38/40 point because there's little incentive to stay!
If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!
Faced with those decisions, it's hardly surprising that flt lts are making career choices at a very early age!
Last edited by LFFC; 15th Dec 2005 at 12:38.
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"If you're an aircrew flt lt aged less than about 32 then taking promotion may not be a major issue as you'll probably get further promotion to wg cdr in the future."
LFFC, just to complicate your theory, I'm a fair bit less than 32 and still turned down promotion. The package just isn't appealing enough for reasons well documented in this thread and others. I PVR'd and am off to the airlines - no surprises there!
Younger Flt Lt s seem to be packing it in more than they have in the past; I think this is largely due to the realisation that if you're thinking of leaving before 38/Immediate pension point then you've got a pension pot to build up to compensate. Rough figures: Post aged 33 - Worth staying till 38. Pre-aged 33 - You can make up your pension in civvy st with AVCs, earlier command etc.
The long and short of it? If you're not staying for the Immediate pension, the best time to go was yesterday!! I know so many pilots that are hacked off but they cannot entertain the idea of leaving when they've only got a couple of years until their 38 point.
Once they reach that point however they will go unless the airlines are having a shocker at that stage.
All so sad, I was as keen as mustard 2 years ago; how did I get disillusioned so quickly? Happy with my lot now mind you!!
LFFC, just to complicate your theory, I'm a fair bit less than 32 and still turned down promotion. The package just isn't appealing enough for reasons well documented in this thread and others. I PVR'd and am off to the airlines - no surprises there!
Younger Flt Lt s seem to be packing it in more than they have in the past; I think this is largely due to the realisation that if you're thinking of leaving before 38/Immediate pension point then you've got a pension pot to build up to compensate. Rough figures: Post aged 33 - Worth staying till 38. Pre-aged 33 - You can make up your pension in civvy st with AVCs, earlier command etc.
The long and short of it? If you're not staying for the Immediate pension, the best time to go was yesterday!! I know so many pilots that are hacked off but they cannot entertain the idea of leaving when they've only got a couple of years until their 38 point.
Once they reach that point however they will go unless the airlines are having a shocker at that stage.
All so sad, I was as keen as mustard 2 years ago; how did I get disillusioned so quickly? Happy with my lot now mind you!!
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Well that may be the case at CU but here in the Lynx fleet morale is high, we are all looking forward to Christmas leave. Some of oud bretheren are away defending democracy. But, generally life in the Lynx fleet is fine. There are a few guys going outside but most of them at their natural break points. Can't remember the last PVR ...? Oh yes I can, we had 1 this year and thats in a fleet of over 100 aircrew.
Morale wise, life in the Lynx fleet is fine. Lots of hard work, lots of sea time and lots of being pi$$ed about with changes of programme and changes of ships etc etc But I can honestly say that when I joined my first ship in 1976 it was exactly the same. Nothing has changed as far as the tempo of work. It was hard then and its hard now.
Socially life is good. This week we have had a great Xmas draw ( I won bugger all again), we had the (now infamous) Lynx Lunch (fantastic fun - especially the fight) and the Senior Rates bottle draw was something which will remain in my memory for many years.
Next term we have lots of flying to look forward to, Ex Loyal Mariner, Gulf deployments, Lemon peel etc etc. We have a fab social in Feb lined up when we celebrate a 25,000 Hours land mark. The Lynx celebrates 30 years in Naval service next year and so there are plans to make for those celebrations. As for the aircraft - its old, doesn't meet the Op requirement and its servicability is beginning to suffer BUT its still the fastest and most fun RW aircraft to fly. There are about 6/7 different types of the aircraft flying around and so when you climb into one your never quite sure which configuration it will be but that adds to the fun. As for the flying, that remains fun. We have had our new weapon for over a couple fof years now and it remains the most awesome of guns. Tractor spotting is becomming a firm fave and I say that as the lead spotter.
So, overall, I'm not quite sure of why morale is low at CU but here in Somerset and in general throughout the lynx fleet morale is high and life is ok thank you very much.
Morale wise, life in the Lynx fleet is fine. Lots of hard work, lots of sea time and lots of being pi$$ed about with changes of programme and changes of ships etc etc But I can honestly say that when I joined my first ship in 1976 it was exactly the same. Nothing has changed as far as the tempo of work. It was hard then and its hard now.
Socially life is good. This week we have had a great Xmas draw ( I won bugger all again), we had the (now infamous) Lynx Lunch (fantastic fun - especially the fight) and the Senior Rates bottle draw was something which will remain in my memory for many years.
Next term we have lots of flying to look forward to, Ex Loyal Mariner, Gulf deployments, Lemon peel etc etc. We have a fab social in Feb lined up when we celebrate a 25,000 Hours land mark. The Lynx celebrates 30 years in Naval service next year and so there are plans to make for those celebrations. As for the aircraft - its old, doesn't meet the Op requirement and its servicability is beginning to suffer BUT its still the fastest and most fun RW aircraft to fly. There are about 6/7 different types of the aircraft flying around and so when you climb into one your never quite sure which configuration it will be but that adds to the fun. As for the flying, that remains fun. We have had our new weapon for over a couple fof years now and it remains the most awesome of guns. Tractor spotting is becomming a firm fave and I say that as the lead spotter.
So, overall, I'm not quite sure of why morale is low at CU but here in Somerset and in general throughout the lynx fleet morale is high and life is ok thank you very much.
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I'm not surprised morale is so high if you are looking forward to christmas leave, attended all your fantastic sqn social events, and have all next year planned out, both socially and professionally.
Back in the real world of military aviation, I am awaiting Op Deny Christmas, not sure what I am doing next week, let alone next year.
I wish we could all go to all our sqn socials, but with only 1 in 8 allowed leave (the only way to guarrantee the day off) and so many deployed crews on top of normal tasking, it will never happen.
My fleet has been at Op tempo since Afghanistan started, and no change is on the horizon. Flying in a high threat zone has become the norm, but we get no extra training than before as there is no money/time available. As previously stated, we receive pointless grunt training 'til it pops out of our eyeballs, but nothing of use to us operationally.
FJ and RW sqns depoy en mass, and do a pre deployment work-up. We just keep on sending the same guys again and again. Some ALM's do 6 months of every year in the desert, and as long as their pistol is ?zeroed?, they have been refused any kit by stores, and have spent a day recognising the symptoms of snakebites, they are good to go!
THAT is why exit levels are so high.
I will miss the people I work with, not the people I work for.
P.S. Glad life in the RN flying club is good though!
Back in the real world of military aviation, I am awaiting Op Deny Christmas, not sure what I am doing next week, let alone next year.
I wish we could all go to all our sqn socials, but with only 1 in 8 allowed leave (the only way to guarrantee the day off) and so many deployed crews on top of normal tasking, it will never happen.
My fleet has been at Op tempo since Afghanistan started, and no change is on the horizon. Flying in a high threat zone has become the norm, but we get no extra training than before as there is no money/time available. As previously stated, we receive pointless grunt training 'til it pops out of our eyeballs, but nothing of use to us operationally.
FJ and RW sqns depoy en mass, and do a pre deployment work-up. We just keep on sending the same guys again and again. Some ALM's do 6 months of every year in the desert, and as long as their pistol is ?zeroed?, they have been refused any kit by stores, and have spent a day recognising the symptoms of snakebites, they are good to go!
THAT is why exit levels are so high.
I will miss the people I work with, not the people I work for.
P.S. Glad life in the RN flying club is good though!
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"But I can honestly say that when I joined my first ship in 1976 it was exactly the same. Nothing has changed as far as the tempo of work."
SS,
That's probably the whole point. In every other sphere of military aviation, things have changed SIGNIFICANTLY and the tempo of work has increased. Hence people are voting with their feet. I find it difficult to believe that things have remained the same in your AO. But then it's your word.......and we know how trustworthy and reliable that is, dont we? If that is the case however, good luck to you, and it's right that you all remain doing something you love. Sadly, the reality for everyone else is that the lifestyle and opportunities that were once available and loved by many, are no more. Cue the issues discussed here, and on t'other thread about leaving in droves. Hey ho...
SS,
That's probably the whole point. In every other sphere of military aviation, things have changed SIGNIFICANTLY and the tempo of work has increased. Hence people are voting with their feet. I find it difficult to believe that things have remained the same in your AO. But then it's your word.......and we know how trustworthy and reliable that is, dont we? If that is the case however, good luck to you, and it's right that you all remain doing something you love. Sadly, the reality for everyone else is that the lifestyle and opportunities that were once available and loved by many, are no more. Cue the issues discussed here, and on t'other thread about leaving in droves. Hey ho...