Imminent strike at RAF Shawbury?
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Q: Is a Serviceman who does not cross the picket line AWOL?
If the civvies are still there at 5pm that'll be a first! For when I passed through Strawbury they were all away by 3 and bleated like a pregnant sheep if rostered for first or last wave. * Except Tony M who must not like his home, or has ambitions of 20,000 hours!
Add to this the skill fade for few if any have flown any type other than the Wessex - Scout and other museum relics. They have no idea what flying non-stop for 7 hours + is like for it is decades since they last even considered it.
Somebody with big balls and an already established retirement plan needs to put 'military' back into 'military'. Providing a blue suit pool for Secondary duties and Stn duties, and a Training establishment with the kudos of having been there and done it in the 21st century.
Service protocol was not 'in my face*' until I arrived at the OCF, for MSHAFT has civvie protocol as well. *By this time I already had well over 2 years of service.
All out Brothers, and give the spawny few blue suits left behind a nice long Christmas. God I'm jealous!!!!!!
If the civvies are still there at 5pm that'll be a first! For when I passed through Strawbury they were all away by 3 and bleated like a pregnant sheep if rostered for first or last wave. * Except Tony M who must not like his home, or has ambitions of 20,000 hours!
Add to this the skill fade for few if any have flown any type other than the Wessex - Scout and other museum relics. They have no idea what flying non-stop for 7 hours + is like for it is decades since they last even considered it.
Somebody with big balls and an already established retirement plan needs to put 'military' back into 'military'. Providing a blue suit pool for Secondary duties and Stn duties, and a Training establishment with the kudos of having been there and done it in the 21st century.
Service protocol was not 'in my face*' until I arrived at the OCF, for MSHAFT has civvie protocol as well. *By this time I already had well over 2 years of service.
All out Brothers, and give the spawny few blue suits left behind a nice long Christmas. God I'm jealous!!!!!!
I have a very vested interest in this as a very close member of my family is on the bottom rung of the pay scale doing domestic type work. She claims that the main problems are with the 'highly paid' ex mil pilots who earn a nice wage topped up by penions etc who want more and more. Just remember the contract is not only made up of pilots there are other people who may have less of a say but are just as affected. She will probably cross any picket line should it come to it and I will support her.
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Unless things have changed considerably at Shawbury, will the civilianised Safety Equipment Section there be displaying a prominent sign stating that they are on strike?
Without such a sign it would be impossible to tell.
Without such a sign it would be impossible to tell.
Join Date: Jan 2002
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I thought this strike had been imminent for the last six months. Just for clarity how much does FBH pay Civilian QHI ? How much does a licensed engineer get paid? Without some facts its hard to make a reasonable judgement whether there is a case for industrial action. I consider that my pension has been bought and paid for, the money is in my bank on the 28th day of the month if I'm working or not. Any firm that factors in someone's pension into the pay scale can't be paying someone their full worth.
I can't speak about FBH from personal experience but a couple of friends who have worked for them speak very poorly of the management. In the first couple of years there were many redundancies. They also broke a long standing agreement on pay negotiation which they were forced to go back on after a lengthy period of delay.
Shawbury has always had a strong civilian element, the old fitness centre is still known by a few of the old timers as the Marshall's Canteen. Civilianisation kicked off big time in the mid 80's and by 97 was virtually complete with the advent of DHFS and the multi activity contract. There are now only about 30 junior ranks on the station. With the RAF reducing to 41,000 could it afford to employ any more people to work 8 till 5 Mon - Fri?
I can't speak about FBH from personal experience but a couple of friends who have worked for them speak very poorly of the management. In the first couple of years there were many redundancies. They also broke a long standing agreement on pay negotiation which they were forced to go back on after a lengthy period of delay.
Shawbury has always had a strong civilian element, the old fitness centre is still known by a few of the old timers as the Marshall's Canteen. Civilianisation kicked off big time in the mid 80's and by 97 was virtually complete with the advent of DHFS and the multi activity contract. There are now only about 30 junior ranks on the station. With the RAF reducing to 41,000 could it afford to employ any more people to work 8 till 5 Mon - Fri?
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A typical management problem in privatised military services is that the management comprises people who could not cut the mustard in the services. Not saying that is the case in this particular dispute but I have seen what happens when an incompetant leaves the military for management of a military-related civilian company. They promote him and the company fails to deliver.
The military must demand high standards from its' contractors and monitor them meticulously to ensure they get it.
The military must demand high standards from its' contractors and monitor them meticulously to ensure they get it.
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For those of you who don't know the workings at Shawbury, the system is not civilian only. It is a mix of mil/civil aircrew, with licenced civil engineers. The emphasis on licenced. The civilian aircrew generally hold licences, but they are not mandatory . I did my last flying tour (recently) there and found the civvie aircrew to be most professional AND qualified for the job, despite being out of the system for years. KPax.... They are highly qualified as well as being quite well paid. Domestic staff around the country generally get close to minimum wage, pilots get more, you can't compare. Your pension is EARNED, it should not be included in the determination of wages for a job. The engineers wages are very poor and turnover can often be high.
The question of a strike.... I now fly shifts as a helicopter captain for the police and am paid a lot less than the Shawbury pilots. However if I use my fixed wing ATPL and become a junior copilot on jets, I get a payrise. The same for them. Is this fair.......... They are only asking for a fair deal.
The question of a strike.... I now fly shifts as a helicopter captain for the police and am paid a lot less than the Shawbury pilots. However if I use my fixed wing ATPL and become a junior copilot on jets, I get a payrise. The same for them. Is this fair.......... They are only asking for a fair deal.
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Somebody mentioned better monitoring of the contractors; why bother? If we went back to all blue suits then we would be able to monitor better and use the manpower for other tasks.
It has often been stated that "Value for money" is what the Government want; a serviceman that does guard, FRESCO, ops, foot and mouth, as well as his primary job, seems to be pretty good value for money IMHO.
It has often been stated that "Value for money" is what the Government want; a serviceman that does guard, FRESCO, ops, foot and mouth, as well as his primary job, seems to be pretty good value for money IMHO.
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But so is a civvie QHI good VFM - as he's a lot cheaper than a Mil QHI and you don't have to provide the civvie QHI with accom, health care, dental care, home to duty pay, sports facilities, social facilities etc etc etc.
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You don't have to provide a civvy with all those things but then he/she doesn't have a service ethos, work ethic or can-do attitude that the majority (there are exceptions) of servicemen have.
Moreover, the contractor will charge you in the overall bill to provide the pension contributions, training etc, so they get their money out of us.
I am no fan at all of contractorisation; they cannot fight - our number one reason for being. Could you imagine the FSTA contractors striking (when it comes in)? The RAF will be unable to conduct an air war outside of the UK or fly the Army around the world!!!
Moreover, the contractor will charge you in the overall bill to provide the pension contributions, training etc, so they get their money out of us.
I am no fan at all of contractorisation; they cannot fight - our number one reason for being. Could you imagine the FSTA contractors striking (when it comes in)? The RAF will be unable to conduct an air war outside of the UK or fly the Army around the world!!!
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.... but what is the value of the package that a civilian employer has to offer to retain good ex-military instructors? Contractors often try to offer less than the going rate for ex-military instructors because they generally have good pensions - but any civilian employment agency would immediately tell you that that's "off-side".
Besides, that approach will only hold water for a short while - ex-military types should realise that their transferable skills are highly desired in the civilian world - even if they work in a completely unrelated field. It just takes the courage to make the break!
The bottom line is that a proper employment package (that maybe includes BUPA, relocation etc etc) will be quite costly for a contractor, and any so-called savings are usually just fantasy.
Besides, that approach will only hold water for a short while - ex-military types should realise that their transferable skills are highly desired in the civilian world - even if they work in a completely unrelated field. It just takes the courage to make the break!
The bottom line is that a proper employment package (that maybe includes BUPA, relocation etc etc) will be quite costly for a contractor, and any so-called savings are usually just fantasy.
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There seem to be a few presumptuous young whelps around this thread who think that only the military are capable of doing a good job for the right price. They should study the capitation rate for the equivalent military grade before putting pen to paper and they would see why MOD have been able to save money by negotiating civilian contracts.
It may also surprise these same people that civilians can do the job better in many cases and with less people because they are not distracted by non-productive tasks like duty officer or other non-core activities. They also usually have less leave and spend less time in the bar.
Most of the service retirees who do these jobs carry the military ethos with them into the civilian task and, far from wanting to ‘stay in the comfort zone’ or being ‘too old to secure a decent civvy job’, they competed for and got a job directly related to the aircraft and flying they enjoyed in the forces. Many of them have never had any ambition to ‘secure a decent civvy job’ if that meant the sort of flying that bores even the passengers.
It may also surprise these same people that civilians can do the job better in many cases and with less people because they are not distracted by non-productive tasks like duty officer or other non-core activities. They also usually have less leave and spend less time in the bar.
Most of the service retirees who do these jobs carry the military ethos with them into the civilian task and, far from wanting to ‘stay in the comfort zone’ or being ‘too old to secure a decent civvy job’, they competed for and got a job directly related to the aircraft and flying they enjoyed in the forces. Many of them have never had any ambition to ‘secure a decent civvy job’ if that meant the sort of flying that bores even the passengers.
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Soddim,
You miss the point entirely; the civvies cannot deploy and can strike, servicemen can deploy and cannot strike. Which one do you think the military needs more of at the moment (and for the forseeable future)?
Too often, people focus on value for money, at home (UK) and during peacetime. What is missed by these people and our politicians is that the military is not meant to be "efficient", "value for money" or "cost-effective", whatever they might mean. The military is, effectively, an insurance policy that you hope you don't have to use but when you do, it kicks in straight away. How can we do that if our supporting civilian colleagues are on strike?
You miss the point entirely; the civvies cannot deploy and can strike, servicemen can deploy and cannot strike. Which one do you think the military needs more of at the moment (and for the forseeable future)?
Too often, people focus on value for money, at home (UK) and during peacetime. What is missed by these people and our politicians is that the military is not meant to be "efficient", "value for money" or "cost-effective", whatever they might mean. The military is, effectively, an insurance policy that you hope you don't have to use but when you do, it kicks in straight away. How can we do that if our supporting civilian colleagues are on strike?
The established, contract driven, world of the "public service" helicopter pilot in the UK is changing at last.
More and more 'customers' are progressing to directly employ their own support staff pilots. Part of this process requires the setting of comparative salary scales.
The "industry standard" salary scale for this type of job has now, for the first time , been quantified by several different 'peer group' salary reviews, all undertaken by government offices.
Contractors in all "public services" arenas (including mil training) will soon have to reassess their margins in the light of these reviews.
What is happening at Shawbury is just part of this process.
More and more 'customers' are progressing to directly employ their own support staff pilots. Part of this process requires the setting of comparative salary scales.
The "industry standard" salary scale for this type of job has now, for the first time , been quantified by several different 'peer group' salary reviews, all undertaken by government offices.
Contractors in all "public services" arenas (including mil training) will soon have to reassess their margins in the light of these reviews.
What is happening at Shawbury is just part of this process.
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Twonston, wake up and smell the coffee. As you get older (and hopefully wiser) you realise that logic is completely and utterly irrellevant to a politician. If you ever have the honour to brief one and money is involved, there are two ways it can go. You say "I can save money" and he gets alert and listens. You say "we can do this better with more funding" and his eyes will glaze over. They really really don't give a monkeys, as long as it is cheap. 
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jayteeto,
Patronise me, that'll get me on board! I don't ever remember saying in my post that this is what will or should happen. I concur that our politcal masters go for the cheap option.
All I'm saying is, you reap what you sew. I look forward (not with any degree of delight, rather, curiosity) to the first conflict when the Armed Forces are unable to deploy due to strike action of civilians or an unwillingness to allow us to use the very equipment we need (FSTA). What will the Government of the day do then? We will already have lost a signifcant amount of experience. Moreover, as the military gets smaller, where will the contractors magically get these trained and competent retired personnel to run the contract for peanuts?
I only mention these points so I can say "told you so" when it all happens.
Patronise me, that'll get me on board! I don't ever remember saying in my post that this is what will or should happen. I concur that our politcal masters go for the cheap option.
All I'm saying is, you reap what you sew. I look forward (not with any degree of delight, rather, curiosity) to the first conflict when the Armed Forces are unable to deploy due to strike action of civilians or an unwillingness to allow us to use the very equipment we need (FSTA). What will the Government of the day do then? We will already have lost a signifcant amount of experience. Moreover, as the military gets smaller, where will the contractors magically get these trained and competent retired personnel to run the contract for peanuts?
I only mention these points so I can say "told you so" when it all happens.
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Apologies if I was patronising, I didn't mean to be. Looks like you have it sussed well. You know they will blame the last government if it all goes wrong. Look into the history books, in the thirties the Brit Mil was run down and it nearly cost us dear. Goldfish have 5 second memories, Politicians are a bit better at 5 year memory cycles....
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Jayteeto - But the last government was the very same as we have now - and the one before that! As they are now in their 3rd term, blaming the "previous government" is no longer an option!
Happy Christmas to all at MPASG by the way!!
Happy Christmas to all at MPASG by the way!!