The Last Tommy
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Re: The Last Tommy
Well what ever is decided best they don't take too long.....
Daily Telegraph
According to Wikipedia, that leaves 12 surviving British veterans. However, only 9 are still living in the UK. The other 3 emigrated to Australia after the war.
Professor Harold Lawton, who died on Christmas Eve aged 106, was an authority on 16th- and 17th-century literature in France, and is thought to have been the last surviving Allied soldier captured on the Western Front.
Lawton crossed the Channel in March 1918 and was sent to join the 4th Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, in reinforcing the line at Bethune after a Portuguese battalion had been overwhelmed by a German artillery barrage at Armentières.
When he arrived the situation was chaotic, with the trenches little more than shallow scrapes, so that he and the other new arrivals had to dig in. When the Germans infiltrated their lines, outflanked them and swept past, Lawton and six comrades were cut off for several days without food, ammunition or orders. Eventually the Germans returned, and they had no option but to surrender.
That night, the seven prisoners were put in a wire cage, and taken through Lille. The townspeople were hungry themselves, but they came out and tried to give them bread. It was a kindness that Lawton never forgot. He was incarcerated in a fortress known as the Black Hole of Lille, where hundreds of men were crammed into cells, and had to sleep on wooden shelves. The sanitary conditions were appalling, and many died from wounds, dysentery and influenza.
Lawton was reported missing, believed killed, and it was some time before he was able to write home. Eventually, he was moved to Limburg, Westphalia, and then to a PoW camp at Minden, from which he was released after the Armistice was signed in November. Even then he did not feel entirely safe. During the return to England, in a captured German vessel, the captain told Lawton that there were still mines in the North Sea, and that if the ship was hit, the passengers were to assemble on deck - assuming that it was still there.
Lawton crossed the Channel in March 1918 and was sent to join the 4th Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment, in reinforcing the line at Bethune after a Portuguese battalion had been overwhelmed by a German artillery barrage at Armentières.
When he arrived the situation was chaotic, with the trenches little more than shallow scrapes, so that he and the other new arrivals had to dig in. When the Germans infiltrated their lines, outflanked them and swept past, Lawton and six comrades were cut off for several days without food, ammunition or orders. Eventually the Germans returned, and they had no option but to surrender.
That night, the seven prisoners were put in a wire cage, and taken through Lille. The townspeople were hungry themselves, but they came out and tried to give them bread. It was a kindness that Lawton never forgot. He was incarcerated in a fortress known as the Black Hole of Lille, where hundreds of men were crammed into cells, and had to sleep on wooden shelves. The sanitary conditions were appalling, and many died from wounds, dysentery and influenza.
Lawton was reported missing, believed killed, and it was some time before he was able to write home. Eventually, he was moved to Limburg, Westphalia, and then to a PoW camp at Minden, from which he was released after the Armistice was signed in November. Even then he did not feel entirely safe. During the return to England, in a captured German vessel, the captain told Lawton that there were still mines in the North Sea, and that if the ship was hit, the passengers were to assemble on deck - assuming that it was still there.
According to Wikipedia, that leaves 12 surviving British veterans. However, only 9 are still living in the UK. The other 3 emigrated to Australia after the war.
Last edited by November4; 4th Jan 2006 at 01:17.
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Re: The Last Tommy
So if the last surviving serviceman who served in WW! doesn't actually live in the UK....when he dies, do we drag his body back for the state funeral?
or should we go with the last surviving serviceman who lives in the UK. Snag with that of course is that he might not be the last one to die...he could be the last but one (or 2 or 3)....which would make a mockery of it all wouldn't it?
or should we go with the last surviving serviceman who lives in the UK. Snag with that of course is that he might not be the last one to die...he could be the last but one (or 2 or 3)....which would make a mockery of it all wouldn't it?
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11 surviving now....
The last remaining merchant sailor from the First World War has died aged 107, his family have said.
Nicholas Swarbrick died peacefully last Thursday at the nursing home in Grimsargh, Lancashire, where he spent his final years.
His death leaves just 11 soldiers, sailors and airmen from the Great War, said a National Archives spokesman.
Most of these live in the south of England, apart from two in Australia and one who lives in Derby.
Mr Swarbrick served as a merchant seaman during the 1914-1918 conflict.
His nephew, Rodney Swarbrick, said : "We are coming to the end of an era.
"He was a remarkable man. He thought he had lived in the most exciting century the world has ever seen. He thought he had been lucky to live through a century of such unparalleled endeavour and achievement for mankind."
In an interview last year to mark Armistice Day, Mr Swarbrick said he could still recall the death of Queen Victoria as a boy and his memories of the war years lived on with him.
Born in Grimsargh, near Preston, he joined the Merchant Navy aged 17 and trained as a radio officer. German U-Boats took a terrible toll on Allied shipping, sending thousands of service personnel, and civilians, to a watery grave.
Mr Swarbrick said: "I was the radio officer and could hear when ships were being sunk.
SOS distress
"I could hear the SOS messages from torpedoed ships, ships in distress and going down and hearing their death throes. It was pretty horrifying to hear what was happening on the airwaves.
"And the instructions we had was not to go to their aid, because you yourself then became a target for the sub lurking close by.
"You had to get the hell out of it rather than go to help - that would be merely to commit suicide.
"I always expected us to be next, I think we just got used to that fear, but it never happened to us."
Working life
Mr Swarbrick remained in the Merchant Navy for 13 years.
He switched to his father's farm business in Grimsargh for the rest of his working life.
Mr Swarbrick remained teetotal and single all his life, but one of his nephews is an officer in the Royal Navy.
He died in a nursing home which overlooks land which his father and he once farmed.
The veteran will be cremated at Preston Crematorium on Friday.
According to the National Archives there are three sailors from the Royal Navy, who served in the First World War, who are still alive, four soldiers, three members of the Royal Flying Corps and one member of the Royal Navy Air Service.
Nicholas Swarbrick died peacefully last Thursday at the nursing home in Grimsargh, Lancashire, where he spent his final years.
His death leaves just 11 soldiers, sailors and airmen from the Great War, said a National Archives spokesman.
Most of these live in the south of England, apart from two in Australia and one who lives in Derby.
Mr Swarbrick served as a merchant seaman during the 1914-1918 conflict.
His nephew, Rodney Swarbrick, said : "We are coming to the end of an era.
"He was a remarkable man. He thought he had lived in the most exciting century the world has ever seen. He thought he had been lucky to live through a century of such unparalleled endeavour and achievement for mankind."
In an interview last year to mark Armistice Day, Mr Swarbrick said he could still recall the death of Queen Victoria as a boy and his memories of the war years lived on with him.
Born in Grimsargh, near Preston, he joined the Merchant Navy aged 17 and trained as a radio officer. German U-Boats took a terrible toll on Allied shipping, sending thousands of service personnel, and civilians, to a watery grave.
Mr Swarbrick said: "I was the radio officer and could hear when ships were being sunk.
SOS distress
"I could hear the SOS messages from torpedoed ships, ships in distress and going down and hearing their death throes. It was pretty horrifying to hear what was happening on the airwaves.
"And the instructions we had was not to go to their aid, because you yourself then became a target for the sub lurking close by.
"You had to get the hell out of it rather than go to help - that would be merely to commit suicide.
"I always expected us to be next, I think we just got used to that fear, but it never happened to us."
Working life
Mr Swarbrick remained in the Merchant Navy for 13 years.
He switched to his father's farm business in Grimsargh for the rest of his working life.
Mr Swarbrick remained teetotal and single all his life, but one of his nephews is an officer in the Royal Navy.
He died in a nursing home which overlooks land which his father and he once farmed.
The veteran will be cremated at Preston Crematorium on Friday.
According to the National Archives there are three sailors from the Royal Navy, who served in the First World War, who are still alive, four soldiers, three members of the Royal Flying Corps and one member of the Royal Navy Air Service.
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State funeral
I agree with idea of a state funeral for the last survivor if the family concur.
However there seems to be some confusion over what is a state funeral.
State funerals are reserved for the Monarch and for very few people who the state deems have deserved the honour because of their actions or deeds.
vecvechookattack You were nearly correct but you said Monarchy.
The funerals of HM The Queen Mother, HRH The Princess Margaret, and Diana, Princess of Wales were all Royal Funerals not State funerals. As such these are just family funerals but very public. I was made aware of this subtle difference by a series of photographs in either the Express or the Mail after the funeral of Queen Mary. These showed the mourners following the coffin in both Queen Mary's and King George VIth's funerals. In King George's case Prince Philip leads the mourners (as the husband of the Monarch) followed by royal males in order of succession and way last the Duke of Windsor. At Queen Mary's funeral the Duke of Windsor leads as senior family member and Prince Philip is after the Duke of Gloucester (and possibly the Earl of Harewood).
Finally I am sure if the last survivor happens to be an Australian resident under the current administration a State funeral will be offered
However there seems to be some confusion over what is a state funeral.
State funerals are reserved for the Monarch and for very few people who the state deems have deserved the honour because of their actions or deeds.
vecvechookattack You were nearly correct but you said Monarchy.
The funerals of HM The Queen Mother, HRH The Princess Margaret, and Diana, Princess of Wales were all Royal Funerals not State funerals. As such these are just family funerals but very public. I was made aware of this subtle difference by a series of photographs in either the Express or the Mail after the funeral of Queen Mary. These showed the mourners following the coffin in both Queen Mary's and King George VIth's funerals. In King George's case Prince Philip leads the mourners (as the husband of the Monarch) followed by royal males in order of succession and way last the Duke of Windsor. At Queen Mary's funeral the Duke of Windsor leads as senior family member and Prince Philip is after the Duke of Gloucester (and possibly the Earl of Harewood).
Finally I am sure if the last survivor happens to be an Australian resident under the current administration a State funeral will be offered
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Pom Pax
No..... they were state funerals.
State sunerals are reserved for the Monarchy, and persons deemed to be of significance worthy of a state funeral.
Princess Diana was not a member of the Royal Family after her divorce. She was granted a state funeral as the mother of the future King, this being deemed of worthy significance.
Please don't trust the Express or Daily Mail as authoritative sources concerning British traditions, because they claim more than they know.
No..... they were state funerals.
State sunerals are reserved for the Monarchy, and persons deemed to be of significance worthy of a state funeral.
Princess Diana was not a member of the Royal Family after her divorce. She was granted a state funeral as the mother of the future King, this being deemed of worthy significance.
Please don't trust the Express or Daily Mail as authoritative sources concerning British traditions, because they claim more than they know.
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The nation will say thank-you to its veterans this summer with the launch of Britain's annual Veterans Day. Veterans' Minister Don Touhig announced today that young and old will join together on June 27 for a national event in London, with local celebrations across the country.
As well as inaugurating June 27 as Veterans' Day, this year's events will honour the holders of the Victoria Cross and George Cross.
Mr Touhig said: "I am truly excited about the celebrations in London.
But I am also keen that Veterans Day should be a genuinely national occasion. So, I am calling on communities across Britain to organise their own local celebrations for Veterans Day."
Mr Touhig added: "This announcement follows the great success of last year's Veterans Awareness Week. Every year, June 27 will be our chance to thank our veterans for the sacrifices they have made for us. It will also let us honour the serving men and women of our Armed Forces.
"In Britain we can vote, learn, speak and live freely because our armed forces have defended our values. Our message is simple: if you enjoy your freedom, thank our veterans.
"Veterans come in all ages, shapes and sizes. They may be old or young but they have the same distinction. They have worn their country's uniform with pride and have honoured their promise to defend their country."
As well as inaugurating June 27 as Veterans' Day, this year's events will honour the holders of the Victoria Cross and George Cross.
Mr Touhig said: "I am truly excited about the celebrations in London.
But I am also keen that Veterans Day should be a genuinely national occasion. So, I am calling on communities across Britain to organise their own local celebrations for Veterans Day."
Mr Touhig added: "This announcement follows the great success of last year's Veterans Awareness Week. Every year, June 27 will be our chance to thank our veterans for the sacrifices they have made for us. It will also let us honour the serving men and women of our Armed Forces.
"In Britain we can vote, learn, speak and live freely because our armed forces have defended our values. Our message is simple: if you enjoy your freedom, thank our veterans.
"Veterans come in all ages, shapes and sizes. They may be old or young but they have the same distinction. They have worn their country's uniform with pride and have honoured their promise to defend their country."
At last some sense.
Last surviving female WW1 (and RFC) veteran dies
RFC veteran, Ex-Leading Aircraftswomen Alice baker has died.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4781342.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4781342.stm
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I don't think we have ,in New Zealand, any WW1 veterans left, and it was only on Armistice Day in 2004 that a Tomb of the Unknown Warrior was created in Wellington in a very moving ceremony. All we know of him was that he lost his life sometime between April 1916 and November 1918. We do know that that his body was found without identification other than that he was a New Zealander, and was buried in Northern France, at Longueval. There were, however, some 12,483 Kiwis lost on the Western Front, and of those 33 per cent disappeared , or were recovered but not identified, so our soldier could be any one of those.
We, that is my wife and I, gained an invite because two of her father's elder brothers are buried in France, and another, a cousin, was never found but is commemorated on a separate memorial in France. In May this year, we are going to France to visit both graves, something I don't think anyone in the family has been able to do.
Personally, for you in the UK, when the last one fades away, I think there should be something hugely significant done to mark the occasion, and a State Funeral seems very appropriate.We'll never see the likes again.
We, that is my wife and I, gained an invite because two of her father's elder brothers are buried in France, and another, a cousin, was never found but is commemorated on a separate memorial in France. In May this year, we are going to France to visit both graves, something I don't think anyone in the family has been able to do.
Personally, for you in the UK, when the last one fades away, I think there should be something hugely significant done to mark the occasion, and a State Funeral seems very appropriate.We'll never see the likes again.
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National service to mark passing of WW1 veterans
Here is the latest from Defence News:
19/04/2006
It is reported that a national day of commemoration could be staged to mark the passing of the last British veterans of the First World War, the Government has indicated. Don Touhig, the defence minister responsible for veterans, told MPs that the Government was considering proposals for a national memorial service, which could be accompanied by events in communities and schools across the country. There had been a campaign for a state funeral to be held for the last First World War veteran. But Mr Touhig voiced doubts about calls this proposal, as it was riddled with difficulties. Ministers did not have a comprehensive list of surviving veterans, making it "impossible" to identify the last survivor with any certainty, he said. "Inevitably the numbers of surviving veterans of World War One will dwindle, but the numbers of those known to us do go up as well as down," he added.
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State Funeral for Last WW1 Veteran
I am not sure that it matters too much if the last veteran is located, so long as a best effort is made to do so. There must be some uncertainty but I think the public would like a ceremony based the most likely last man than to have no ceremony because of difficulties with a 100% identification. I saw last night that the City of San Francisco found 9 survivors of the earthquake in 1906; if they can manage something like that I think we should put in some effort on this and have an appropriate ceremony, of which the public seems to approve.
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A typical Bureaucrats grasp of reality!
You reckon that dunderhead has any idea to what number they will "dwindle" to?
"Inevitably the numbers of surviving veterans of World War One will dwindle, but the numbers of those known to us do go up as well as down," he added.
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I see the Wikipedia page has been updated to show that there are 9 veterans still living the UK. They have put those that emigrated to Australia under Australians still surviving.
But it also throws up a new question - what if the last person did not see action?
5 of the surviving people saw no action. 2 of them were still in training when the war ended. Should these 2 be included in the list?
To my mind and using the qualifying dates that were used by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for war graves treatment - 4 Aug 1914 - 31 August 1921, if you were in the forces whether you saw action or not then you are included in the list of surviving veterans. That last date was the official date that the war ended.
I have carried out research into the names inscribed on a number of war memorials - a humbling experience to see the ages that these men were when they died compared to what they could have lived to. My own personal feeling is that 11 November should be restored as the official Remembrance day and become a public holiday as soon as possible so that those who survived are still around to see it happen.
But it also throws up a new question - what if the last person did not see action?
5 of the surviving people saw no action. 2 of them were still in training when the war ended. Should these 2 be included in the list?
To my mind and using the qualifying dates that were used by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission for war graves treatment - 4 Aug 1914 - 31 August 1921, if you were in the forces whether you saw action or not then you are included in the list of surviving veterans. That last date was the official date that the war ended.
I have carried out research into the names inscribed on a number of war memorials - a humbling experience to see the ages that these men were when they died compared to what they could have lived to. My own personal feeling is that 11 November should be restored as the official Remembrance day and become a public holiday as soon as possible so that those who survived are still around to see it happen.
Assuming that the last survivor was sufficiently aware of the world - and thankfully those remaining seem to be - wouldn't it be somewhat less than a tribute to present the poor old sod with a realisation in his last days that the nation [or more accurately its media] was anticipating his death?
Why not wait until the number reaches 5, then honour each and everyone of them.
Let the Heritage Lottery fund come up with the funds, seeing as there is probably no chance that Mr Moneybags Brown will fund it from state funds (Unless they need a haircut).
May the time we have to wait for this event be as long as possible.
Heartfelt thanks to them all.
Let the Heritage Lottery fund come up with the funds, seeing as there is probably no chance that Mr Moneybags Brown will fund it from state funds (Unless they need a haircut).
May the time we have to wait for this event be as long as possible.
Heartfelt thanks to them all.