Personal Weapons Etiquet on Entering C-130
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When asked about "various national air forces SOPs", we need to remember that terminology, weapons, weapons conditions/states, & SOPs are all very different.
As the various states/actions taught to me while on the RAF for a short time caused my tiny brain to hurt, I'll devolve to my two septic states: loaded or unloaded.
Loaded = full mag, one up the pipe, hammer down, safety off. Double-action makes noise.
Unloaded = no mag inserted, nothing up the pipe, safety on. Nothing makes noise.
To me, this is far simpler than safe, ready, make safe, load, unload...etc. Granted, there are action differences between the Beretta 92F & the Browning Hi-Power that make this not necessarily an equal translation, however, if there's a mag in, it's a live weapon. Full stop, end of discussion. Treat it as such. Use your national SOPs to make it safe.
As for carriage on the mighty Hercules - I'd prefer you to unload your weapon before boarding. If, however, you'll be deplaning onto a hot LZ, please be sensible.
As the various states/actions taught to me while on the RAF for a short time caused my tiny brain to hurt, I'll devolve to my two septic states: loaded or unloaded.
Loaded = full mag, one up the pipe, hammer down, safety off. Double-action makes noise.
Unloaded = no mag inserted, nothing up the pipe, safety on. Nothing makes noise.
To me, this is far simpler than safe, ready, make safe, load, unload...etc. Granted, there are action differences between the Beretta 92F & the Browning Hi-Power that make this not necessarily an equal translation, however, if there's a mag in, it's a live weapon. Full stop, end of discussion. Treat it as such. Use your national SOPs to make it safe.
As for carriage on the mighty Hercules - I'd prefer you to unload your weapon before boarding. If, however, you'll be deplaning onto a hot LZ, please be sensible.
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Jesus wept. NSPs by committee.
Nice summary Rugmuncher. The rest of you need to go and talk to a rockape. The MoD has put a 25m barrack range on your station for a reason. Even if they won't give you any ammunition, a sneaky 10 mins dry training with an armourer could immeasurably improve the prospects of you returning with the same number of people and body parts you started with.
Nice summary Rugmuncher. The rest of you need to go and talk to a rockape. The MoD has put a 25m barrack range on your station for a reason. Even if they won't give you any ammunition, a sneaky 10 mins dry training with an armourer could immeasurably improve the prospects of you returning with the same number of people and body parts you started with.
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According to the Rocks - "If you stumble across a weapon", or you are about to enter indoors, bus, truck or ac etc you make the weapon safe
...leave it there and get a bomb-doc to look at it before you touch it.Lots are primed to go bang by nasty blokes.
G
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Weapons on RAF aircraft.
I was a pongo in former years and was on exercise with the AMF(L) in Denmark in the late 1980s. There had been a number of civilian airliner hi-jackings in the preceeding months.
At the end of the exercise we paraded, knackered and grubby, in our warlike kit festooned with weapons, at the Danish airhead for the return flight to UK, courtesy of CrabAir.
To our amazement the movers announced that, in accordance with air transport regulations, we were not permitted to board the aircraft carrying knives with a blade longer than x inches. RAF personnel then examined the personal kit of every soldier and officer, measuring bayonets, parangs, pocket knives and survival knives and collecting all offending items, labelled with the owner's name, in sacks which were then loaded onto the aircraft. This took a couple of hours. We then all trooped onto the VC10 and returned home, safe from hi-jacking.
God know's at what level this act of lunacy was initiated and I'm sure it was all a regrettable misunderstanding. But is it any wonder that green despises blue, aircrew despise airtraffickers etc and everyone despises movers? Except me of course.
At the end of the exercise we paraded, knackered and grubby, in our warlike kit festooned with weapons, at the Danish airhead for the return flight to UK, courtesy of CrabAir.
To our amazement the movers announced that, in accordance with air transport regulations, we were not permitted to board the aircraft carrying knives with a blade longer than x inches. RAF personnel then examined the personal kit of every soldier and officer, measuring bayonets, parangs, pocket knives and survival knives and collecting all offending items, labelled with the owner's name, in sacks which were then loaded onto the aircraft. This took a couple of hours. We then all trooped onto the VC10 and returned home, safe from hi-jacking.
God know's at what level this act of lunacy was initiated and I'm sure it was all a regrettable misunderstanding. But is it any wonder that green despises blue, aircrew despise airtraffickers etc and everyone despises movers? Except me of course.
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CM....
Well if the task of taking knives from your unit took hours to complete it was down to your unit.......!!!! Unable to read and digest the Movement Instruction which is issued to assist in your deployment.
As the RAF VC10 is only capable of carrying a maximum passenger load of 129 troops in a standard seating configuration, there was no way it would take as long as you state.
The rules are not just for MOD aircraft , but are the same for civilian aircraft, instigated in the UK by the CAA or in USA by the FAA.
Furthermore on the subject of the size of blade, that is a Police matter. It is an offence to carry a blade of more than 3ins in public.
As most pongo's tend to go away on Exercises tooled up like an extra from a Rambo movie, its no surprise you will be stopped by the Movements Staff and the RAF Police whose duty it is to ensure Flight Safety....!!!!!!
The list of items not allowed to be carried on aircraft is rather comprehensive, however, there are rules in force which may allow items to be carried if they are packed in accordance with current safety regulations.
If you dont know the rules, ask !!! It might be a dumb question which has been asked before, however it may not of been...
After all, VC10 takes off fine with 129 exercise troops....plus 9 crew
Pte Bloggs has left his Coleman stove in his bergan, not declared it, serious of events combine to ignite stove...
RESULT =
134 Dead Aircraft lost...
WHY.....?????
Thick Squaddie thought HE KNEW BETTER !!!!
I rest my case....
Well if the task of taking knives from your unit took hours to complete it was down to your unit.......!!!! Unable to read and digest the Movement Instruction which is issued to assist in your deployment.
As the RAF VC10 is only capable of carrying a maximum passenger load of 129 troops in a standard seating configuration, there was no way it would take as long as you state.
The rules are not just for MOD aircraft , but are the same for civilian aircraft, instigated in the UK by the CAA or in USA by the FAA.
Furthermore on the subject of the size of blade, that is a Police matter. It is an offence to carry a blade of more than 3ins in public.
As most pongo's tend to go away on Exercises tooled up like an extra from a Rambo movie, its no surprise you will be stopped by the Movements Staff and the RAF Police whose duty it is to ensure Flight Safety....!!!!!!
The list of items not allowed to be carried on aircraft is rather comprehensive, however, there are rules in force which may allow items to be carried if they are packed in accordance with current safety regulations.
If you dont know the rules, ask !!! It might be a dumb question which has been asked before, however it may not of been...
After all, VC10 takes off fine with 129 exercise troops....plus 9 crew
Pte Bloggs has left his Coleman stove in his bergan, not declared it, serious of events combine to ignite stove...
RESULT =
134 Dead Aircraft lost...
WHY.....?????
Thick Squaddie thought HE KNEW BETTER !!!!
I rest my case....
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Immortal safety catch quotes:
I suppose this would be good enough for C130 too.
Steele:Sergeant, what's the meaning of this?
[Thinking he's talking about the unauthorized pig picking]
"Hoot": Just a little aerial target practice, sir. Didn't want to leave 'em behind.
Steele: I'm talking about your weapon, soldier. Now Delta or no-Delta, that's still a hot weapon. Your safety should be on at all times.
"Hoot": This is my safety, sir.
[He holds up his index finger and bends motions as if squeezing a trigger and then walks off]
[Thinking he's talking about the unauthorized pig picking]
"Hoot": Just a little aerial target practice, sir. Didn't want to leave 'em behind.
Steele: I'm talking about your weapon, soldier. Now Delta or no-Delta, that's still a hot weapon. Your safety should be on at all times.
"Hoot": This is my safety, sir.
[He holds up his index finger and bends motions as if squeezing a trigger and then walks off]
I suppose this would be good enough for C130 too.
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And there I was thinking the lunacy was all a regrettable misunderstanding, when it was actually for real all the time! I'll have to amend my personal view of movers.
And how silly of us ridiculous pongos going off to practise war equipped like Rambos! We should take our tennis rackets and golf clubs in future. I suppose there are plenty of bunkers in Iraq.
Thank you. I am now much wiser.
And how silly of us ridiculous pongos going off to practise war equipped like Rambos! We should take our tennis rackets and golf clubs in future. I suppose there are plenty of bunkers in Iraq.
Thank you. I am now much wiser.
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CM,
If it's any consolation most Aircrew would quite happily let you on "booted and spurred", cos lets face it the back of Albert is awash with potential hijack kit in the guise of tensioners, chains, fire axes etc but movers rules is movers rules
all spelling mistakes rae "df" alcohol induced
If it's any consolation most Aircrew would quite happily let you on "booted and spurred", cos lets face it the back of Albert is awash with potential hijack kit in the guise of tensioners, chains, fire axes etc but movers rules is movers rules
all spelling mistakes rae "df" alcohol induced
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ABIW...
Most of the rules are from the CAA of which as you know MOD complies with..
Carriage of knives is a Police matter same as you cant walk down RAF Wotton Basset High Street with a knife over 3ins....its an offence....
Go back to your galley and make a fresh coffee, then re-read who makes the rules....Movers only follow them...
BTW...
I heard even the CAS had his aircrew knife confiscated !!!
Where ???? LHR on checking in for a Brit Air flight....
Movers involved here NO !!!!!
Civ Police involved Yes !!!
I rest my case for the defence M'lud !!!!
Most of the rules are from the CAA of which as you know MOD complies with..
Carriage of knives is a Police matter same as you cant walk down RAF Wotton Basset High Street with a knife over 3ins....its an offence....
Go back to your galley and make a fresh coffee, then re-read who makes the rules....Movers only follow them...
BTW...
I heard even the CAS had his aircrew knife confiscated !!!
Where ???? LHR on checking in for a Brit Air flight....
Movers involved here NO !!!!!
Civ Police involved Yes !!!
I rest my case for the defence M'lud !!!!
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LL, whoever you are, you are a pr@t of the highest order. Firstly, as a military organisation the RAF has the right to make its own rules about the carriage of weapons, so don't quote civil law when discussing military cargo and pax.
Secondly, by default every UK/Allied military person who boards an RAF aircraft is ON OUR SIDE. He/she is not going to deliberately attempt to do anything to damage the aircraft or those on board...and don't start any further discussion about nutters and carelessness. A simple set of orders to trust the individual to make the weapon safe followed by an independant check will suffice.
And finally, the business about civil check in and rules....there is a fundamental difference between a military transport system where only authorised personnel may fly and the civil airlines where anyone with the necessary cash can get onboard, hence the rules about knives, etc. Don't confuse professional soldiers with tatooed f**kwits
Yes, we know you didn't make the rules, but you let yourself down by espousing them as some sort of flight safety message. I can just about accept the RAFP's need to check bags for illegal souveniers...but thats not a flight safety issue.
Secondly, by default every UK/Allied military person who boards an RAF aircraft is ON OUR SIDE. He/she is not going to deliberately attempt to do anything to damage the aircraft or those on board...and don't start any further discussion about nutters and carelessness. A simple set of orders to trust the individual to make the weapon safe followed by an independant check will suffice.
And finally, the business about civil check in and rules....there is a fundamental difference between a military transport system where only authorised personnel may fly and the civil airlines where anyone with the necessary cash can get onboard, hence the rules about knives, etc. Don't confuse professional soldiers with tatooed f**kwits
Yes, we know you didn't make the rules, but you let yourself down by espousing them as some sort of flight safety message. I can just about accept the RAFP's need to check bags for illegal souveniers...but thats not a flight safety issue.
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DP,
We did this to death a while back and you can keep pointing out the bleedin obvious to the baggage crushers and they will still quote chapter and verse in the manner LL does
Amazin how they can change IATA's, the civilian Dangerous Air Cargo bible to suit op's and ex needs yet can't accept that trained soldiers, sailors etc etc are on our side and therefore a gerber leatherman etc poses no threat on military flights
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
We did this to death a while back and you can keep pointing out the bleedin obvious to the baggage crushers and they will still quote chapter and verse in the manner LL does
Amazin how they can change IATA's, the civilian Dangerous Air Cargo bible to suit op's and ex needs yet can't accept that trained soldiers, sailors etc etc are on our side and therefore a gerber leatherman etc poses no threat on military flights
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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DP...
By your own admission , the RAF makes the rules....!!!
Therefore surely it is incumbent on all Service personnel to abide by them..
IATA (Dangerous Air Cargo regs) is not solely used for the carriage of equipment.. JSP 335 is used for that kit which is not carried rountinely by CivAir....mainly service kite without detailing what that is....leave that to your wealth of in service knowledge to work out...
I agree wholeheartedly about carriage of nutters, as you so quaintly put it...could you spot one though...???
Hence carrying an Amed Team with suitably qualified personnel to deal with it...
Illegal Souvenirs!!!
That in my book was always a flight safety issue...!!!
You cannot carry empty shell cases without an FFE certificate as i'm sure you are aware. I know your reply may well say, there is little or no threat from an empty shell case...maybe an Armourer would be able to tell us the Exact risk here !!!
I would not profess to knowing how to do a Cat 3 approach to PRN, not being a front ender...i leave that in the hands of those well trained, well paid types , that i used to "wave" to passing SHQ...so by the same token those others amongst the groundcrew whose task it is to service/refuel/load etc should be allowed to make decisions, based on knowledge and expertise gained from seeing the problems that can arise from someone elses lack of understanding of the risks carrying something illegal could do..
The 737 lost in Florida Everglades had a problem with dodgy cargo IIRC...
By your own admission , the RAF makes the rules....!!!
Therefore surely it is incumbent on all Service personnel to abide by them..
IATA (Dangerous Air Cargo regs) is not solely used for the carriage of equipment.. JSP 335 is used for that kit which is not carried rountinely by CivAir....mainly service kite without detailing what that is....leave that to your wealth of in service knowledge to work out...
I agree wholeheartedly about carriage of nutters, as you so quaintly put it...could you spot one though...???
Hence carrying an Amed Team with suitably qualified personnel to deal with it...
Illegal Souvenirs!!!
That in my book was always a flight safety issue...!!!
You cannot carry empty shell cases without an FFE certificate as i'm sure you are aware. I know your reply may well say, there is little or no threat from an empty shell case...maybe an Armourer would be able to tell us the Exact risk here !!!
I would not profess to knowing how to do a Cat 3 approach to PRN, not being a front ender...i leave that in the hands of those well trained, well paid types , that i used to "wave" to passing SHQ...so by the same token those others amongst the groundcrew whose task it is to service/refuel/load etc should be allowed to make decisions, based on knowledge and expertise gained from seeing the problems that can arise from someone elses lack of understanding of the risks carrying something illegal could do..
The 737 lost in Florida Everglades had a problem with dodgy cargo IIRC...
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"The 737 lost in Florida Everglades had a problem with dodgy cargo IIRC"..........which was accepted checked and loaded by movers, which is why we, in the RAF have built in that final overall safety check.....the ALM
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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LL
You continue to make my point for me. The CIVILIAN police would stop you carrying a 3" blade in Wooton Bassett High Street. The CAS was pulled up at the CIVILIAN LHR while travelling CIV AIR! As you say in your defence, movers NO, Civ Pol YES.
If your logic was applied, the Met would arrest the Brigade of Guards at Trooping the Colour for illegal carriage of bayonets and swords. Let's hope the Met don't have movers.
However, we were soldiers, returning with all our warlike (sorry, Rambo) kit from several weeks practising the scientific application of legal state violence. And we were not travelling Civ Air (or so we thought) but Crab Air. Military professionals working with military professionals, or so we thought.
So when other so called MILITARY (who were not filthy and exhausted like us) armed with rulers and tape-measures took away our pen knives before allowing us to board a MILITARY flight, we were somewhat bemused, but definitely not amused.
The funny thing was, although our longs were all bundled up, we were still allowed to keep our pistols. I suppose the twit responsible reasoned that you can't stab anyone effectively with a Browning. I really think the movers were negligent in not taking away our pencils though. You can do a lot of damage with a sharpened HB. As I'm sure you know as I presume that is your weapon of choice.
Do you still rest your case, M'Lud?
You continue to make my point for me. The CIVILIAN police would stop you carrying a 3" blade in Wooton Bassett High Street. The CAS was pulled up at the CIVILIAN LHR while travelling CIV AIR! As you say in your defence, movers NO, Civ Pol YES.
If your logic was applied, the Met would arrest the Brigade of Guards at Trooping the Colour for illegal carriage of bayonets and swords. Let's hope the Met don't have movers.
However, we were soldiers, returning with all our warlike (sorry, Rambo) kit from several weeks practising the scientific application of legal state violence. And we were not travelling Civ Air (or so we thought) but Crab Air. Military professionals working with military professionals, or so we thought.
So when other so called MILITARY (who were not filthy and exhausted like us) armed with rulers and tape-measures took away our pen knives before allowing us to board a MILITARY flight, we were somewhat bemused, but definitely not amused.
The funny thing was, although our longs were all bundled up, we were still allowed to keep our pistols. I suppose the twit responsible reasoned that you can't stab anyone effectively with a Browning. I really think the movers were negligent in not taking away our pencils though. You can do a lot of damage with a sharpened HB. As I'm sure you know as I presume that is your weapon of choice.
Do you still rest your case, M'Lud?
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CM...
I concur wholeheartedly my brown/green suited friend....
The rules are a mockery of the system..as you point out, your sharps are taken away from you..yet you keep yr browning...i've never been pistol whipped so dont know what it feels like...!!
As i have said the rules are not made by the Movers/Police per se..but our peers n masters...thats where thefault lies...
We have moved on leaps and bounds in various aspects of service life...but when it comes to Air Travel, sometimes we are behind the drag curve...
Bear in mind though, post 9/11, all sharp implements were banned in the aircraft cabin for fear of hijack...
But then at 33,000ft they serve you a steak dinner complete with steak knife....so we go full circle again...!!!
Maybe a solution would be for the QM to have a Tommy Bin purely for you guys to place your sharps into...just a thought...it could be part of his stores replen set up so would not be a penalty to the overall move..
ABIW...
Florida 737, i dont have the full facts to hand but IIRC it was down to the Consignor falsely declaring the goods. It slipped through the checks as i believe there was nothing untoward to raise concerns...
And I know there have been occasions in the RAF where the final overall safety catch the ALM has not picked up an error..
Why???
Because we are human and yes we do make mistakes but hopefully live to tell the tale and learn from them to ensure that there is never a repeat which may prove costly..
I concur wholeheartedly my brown/green suited friend....
The rules are a mockery of the system..as you point out, your sharps are taken away from you..yet you keep yr browning...i've never been pistol whipped so dont know what it feels like...!!
As i have said the rules are not made by the Movers/Police per se..but our peers n masters...thats where thefault lies...
We have moved on leaps and bounds in various aspects of service life...but when it comes to Air Travel, sometimes we are behind the drag curve...
Bear in mind though, post 9/11, all sharp implements were banned in the aircraft cabin for fear of hijack...
But then at 33,000ft they serve you a steak dinner complete with steak knife....so we go full circle again...!!!
Maybe a solution would be for the QM to have a Tommy Bin purely for you guys to place your sharps into...just a thought...it could be part of his stores replen set up so would not be a penalty to the overall move..
ABIW...
Florida 737, i dont have the full facts to hand but IIRC it was down to the Consignor falsely declaring the goods. It slipped through the checks as i believe there was nothing untoward to raise concerns...
And I know there have been occasions in the RAF where the final overall safety catch the ALM has not picked up an error..
Why???
Because we are human and yes we do make mistakes but hopefully live to tell the tale and learn from them to ensure that there is never a repeat which may prove costly..
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Rules may be rules, but how about the aplication of a little common sense. I remember just a couple of years back, after 9/11, flying back from a hot sandy place on Albert with my trusty Leatherman by my side and not being asked to remove it or hand it to some plod/bag crusher. Flight went on time, no hijack attempts were made and everyone was happy.